I’m putting the odds that BGW marketing used ChatGPT to develop those name options significantly higher than zero.
Project 2025/Holzfäller: Big Bad Wolf 2 (B&M Family Invert)
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If that is true, what do you think the prompt was that resulted in these options?
Okay. I swear on my life that this was my first attempt at asking ChatGPT this and I didn’t do anything to manipulate this result.
My earlier post was just a joke and I didn’t think BGW actually used ChatGPT to name their new coaster. This is hilarious (or really, really depressing).
My earlier post was just a joke and I didn’t think BGW actually used ChatGPT to name their new coaster. This is hilarious (or really, really depressing).
They should name it after my favorite song, “Komm, süßer Tod.”
Coming up for air…after a very-busy long drought of not posting yet still lurking… a new B&M will do that!
The Name…
1. Ok, the names suck. All three of them. Corny, unimaginative and they don’t even make sense by definition or with the theme. I have not voted* nor do I intend to for the “least bad” one, and in so doing validating for SEAS my interest in their names or marketing effort. They might as well have gone with “Wolf’s Revenge” and called it a day.
2. By far the best I’ve seen suggested is @Zachary's WölFliehen (WölfJagen and Wölfin are also pretty good). If the voting allowed for a write-in, I would do that. Short of that, I might suggest people take to an old school email campaign asking for an agreed to name from a hypothetical ParkFans poll--versus voting. Not saying it will change the options, and they’d need to secure a trademark, but you’ll send a message. But I defer to the team here on how best to send such a message…
3. On the whole National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, i.e. “Nazi”) topic… Sorry, that’s not on my list for why the options stink, just because Wölfsturm shares some letters with something bad. Yeah, I know people can be offended by anything (or sometimes, one can rebalance power in their favor by claiming offense to the extent you bend to their will by changing), but IMHO this one is a stretch. Had they literally used Volkssturm, I could see concern since NSDAP used that term; although, a poorly equipped ragtag “people’s army” of young and old in the thankfully dying days of the war is probably lower on the NSDAP egregiousness list… However, I see this as more “German sounding” than a legitimate connection, and prior to now creating search engine fodder here, I doubt any would even think “NSDAP-inspired roller coaster.” Also a huge stretch, but “Braunes Haus” was NSDAP HQ and BGW has a “Festhaus,” and that is near Alpengeist, and put those two together and you can get something like the Alpenfestung NSDAP Alpine Forest retreat, and didn’t NSDAP build "Der Autobahn" and were always promoting slogans with “Kinder” to promote (Aryan) births and societal roles? You can carry the argument to absurdity if you wish… Plus, there are many connections to storms, attacks, wolves, etc. in NSDAP iconography—the same types of terms one often invokes with thrill rides.
*Side note: telling the GP to “Vote Early, Vote Often” during a very tense election year where the integrity of mail-in ballots, voter identification, and eligibility questions are in focus is tone deaf IMHO, moreso than an obscure German-sounding name. Not only is it tone deaf, but the term has obvious connections to political corruption ala Tammany Hall and trying to increase pro-slavery votes in emerging western states. I would never use such a charged slogan unless trying to mock an electoral system.
The Name…
1. Ok, the names suck. All three of them. Corny, unimaginative and they don’t even make sense by definition or with the theme. I have not voted* nor do I intend to for the “least bad” one, and in so doing validating for SEAS my interest in their names or marketing effort. They might as well have gone with “Wolf’s Revenge” and called it a day.
2. By far the best I’ve seen suggested is @Zachary's WölFliehen (WölfJagen and Wölfin are also pretty good). If the voting allowed for a write-in, I would do that. Short of that, I might suggest people take to an old school email campaign asking for an agreed to name from a hypothetical ParkFans poll--versus voting. Not saying it will change the options, and they’d need to secure a trademark, but you’ll send a message. But I defer to the team here on how best to send such a message…
3. On the whole National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, i.e. “Nazi”) topic… Sorry, that’s not on my list for why the options stink, just because Wölfsturm shares some letters with something bad. Yeah, I know people can be offended by anything (or sometimes, one can rebalance power in their favor by claiming offense to the extent you bend to their will by changing), but IMHO this one is a stretch. Had they literally used Volkssturm, I could see concern since NSDAP used that term; although, a poorly equipped ragtag “people’s army” of young and old in the thankfully dying days of the war is probably lower on the NSDAP egregiousness list… However, I see this as more “German sounding” than a legitimate connection, and prior to now creating search engine fodder here, I doubt any would even think “NSDAP-inspired roller coaster.” Also a huge stretch, but “Braunes Haus” was NSDAP HQ and BGW has a “Festhaus,” and that is near Alpengeist, and put those two together and you can get something like the Alpenfestung NSDAP Alpine Forest retreat, and didn’t NSDAP build "Der Autobahn" and were always promoting slogans with “Kinder” to promote (Aryan) births and societal roles? You can carry the argument to absurdity if you wish… Plus, there are many connections to storms, attacks, wolves, etc. in NSDAP iconography—the same types of terms one often invokes with thrill rides.
*Side note: telling the GP to “Vote Early, Vote Often” during a very tense election year where the integrity of mail-in ballots, voter identification, and eligibility questions are in focus is tone deaf IMHO, moreso than an obscure German-sounding name. Not only is it tone deaf, but the term has obvious connections to political corruption ala Tammany Hall and trying to increase pro-slavery votes in emerging western states. I would never use such a charged slogan unless trying to mock an electoral system.
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I think at this point we're all just going to have to come to terms with whatever the name of the ride is. On the bright side, Wölf is going to be one of the best family-friendly coasters in the country, keeps a great legacy alive, and will ultimately be a great addition to the BGW lineup. And after Darkoaster and this, the next coaster HAS to be a big one.
To be fair, it shares a lot of letters, they are in the same order, and the two words sound quite similar. Given that I have encountered a notable handful of people (some of whom are German, speak German, and/or have even lived in Germany) who have all, independently, come to the same, immediate impression, I do think that, just speaking objectively from a PR standpoint, it is a clear problem. If you're selling a product and the first thing even 2% of the population think of is a specific, well-known Nazi militia that shares a strikingly similar name, it's clearly a very foolish branding road to run down—especially when many reasonable names that don't share this association exist—some of which were even pitched prior to this poll. BGW should have consulted with German linguists and historians (read: call up a few William & Mary professors), focused-grouped these names, IDed this problem (which, given the n I'm working from, I would be shocked if it wouldn't have come up), and followed a different route.
All that said, for the record, I was not one of the people who got the distasteful association right off the bat and I'm sure many others won't either. That is perfectly fine. In fact, even after reading people's cases againt it and agreeing with them that this is a wholly unnecessary, foolish brand risk for BGW to take, I still voted for Wölfsturm. Despite its (I believe, objectively, very real) issues, in a lineup of awful names, Wölfsturm is still, in my opinion, the least awful of the potential names for the attraction. Frankly, I'd rather have some knowledgeable guests hear Wölfsturm, cringe, and think BGW probably should have run that one back (accurate, in my opinion!), than for BGW to have two coasters with "geist" in their name or, even worse, have whatever the hell "WölfsReign" is inflicted on BGW for decades to come.
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Fair enough. I'm not German (descended), don't speak German, and never lived in Germany... but I do like history... and didn't make the connection either.
However, given the park's supposed timeframe for these hamlets--anachronisms like Tempesto aside--and the ride's story setting... Wölfsturm would pre-date Volkssturm... So if there is an association, it should be that it is something, like some other NSDAP terms, that was inspired by German culture, the Weimar Republic, or otherwise... versus a strictly NSDAP-originated term.
Regardless... While I really don't know how they arrived at such poor options, I'm generally pleased with their efforts otherwise on this project and am looking forward to it.
Well that was quite long winded but I think I got the gist lol. Nicole said it needed to connote movement of some sort so at least it won't be Hölzfaller lol! You all already got your Darkoaster shout out when they named the new Darkastle so I'd be happy with that. And to hear you're still going on about the Nazi thing while now switching it up and supporting Sturm anyway, that's rich!
#Wolfsreign
Whatever they call it I'm still gonna ride every time and love it.
IMO Wölfsturm is the weakest of the three and was most likely placed in the running as a Battle Klash-type misnomer
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Holzfäller
Who ever asked for a shout-out...?
And you think you "got the gist" of my "long winded" post? That's rich!
@thopping and I were having a nice, civil, back-and-forth—building bridges between our positions. No idea why you felt the need to come in and try to make it all confrontational and abrasive again.
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It’s not about who that name might offend as much as who it might attract IMO. I feel that’s why Rebel Yell was dropped. To completely remove the possible association with any movements.
For the record, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed that BGW naming a coaster Wölfsturm would offend anyone. I certainly don't believe it would and, if it happened to, I'd think it absurd. Similarly, I don't think there's any chance that naming a coaster Wölfsturm would attract any unsavory folks either. It is simply unimaginable to me that these real-world impacts could possibly result from a roller coaster's name making some people think of a Nazi militia. I assure you, the people who are informed enough to pick up on the name similarities are almost certainly also not stupid enough to believe BGW is covertly communicating or accidentally exposing some hidden love of Hitler.
Again: The entire case, in my opinion, centers around the idea that branding is a vibes game and, if your branding gives even a small percentage of the population "Nazi-ish vibes," there are likely better options. I don't think anyone is offended by the name, only the meta issue of the marketing sloppiness/incompetence that landed it in the final round of contention. Anyone trying to bend the critique into anything beyond that is exiting the perimeter of the hill I'm willing to defend.
Again: The entire case, in my opinion, centers around the idea that branding is a vibes game and, if your branding gives even a small percentage of the population "Nazi-ish vibes," there are likely better options. I don't think anyone is offended by the name, only the meta issue of the marketing sloppiness/incompetence that landed it in the final round of contention. Anyone trying to bend the critique into anything beyond that is exiting the perimeter of the hill I'm willing to defend.
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TheCoasterNerd
Previously known as @coasters_bgw
Idk. As a Jew, I just don't think that this is that big an issue. I know some people love to be offended, but I've talked to other Jewish friends of mine, other Jews in the Virginia Beach area and Williamsburg area online, and idk... none of us think that it's an issue. It's just a few letters shared, we all know that's not what they intended and honestly that's not where anyone's mind meant for those I talked to IRL. It's just a nonissue. I think y'all are looking too deep into it
Fair enough, I'll try not to butt in going forward...thought you were directing it at the greater thread. I am enjoying the conversation, though (maybe a little too much ha!) Everyone has their opinion and I'll respect yours.
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I really bounce back and forth on things like this with the sensitivity. I mean, I think sometimes the things that are gone through to draw out problems with a ride/theme/concept kind of goes to areas that I'm not sure a majority of people would go.
Being a big time sports person it reminds me in the drive to get anything with Indigenous American out of team names and iconography. But most the polls of those populations often showed they just wanted to be honored the right way. FSU still faces pressure to change their school mascot/name despite Seminole Nation being overwhelmingly positive about being represented. Heck there's even people putting pressure on Notre Dame to drop "Fighting Irish" and their mascot because it's insensitive to the NI/Ireland conflict because of....well I lost track when a friend of mine that was their mascot when he went there was telling me about the death threats.
I miss the ability to do the 'bar test' of you go into any bar in America and if majority can't make the connection you're ok.
So here's where I ultimately land at:
If the German word for Storm invokes those thoughts to you when combined with another word, does that mean you should avoid using that completely? I think in a case like this context matters much more than anything else. This is in referencing something completely unrelated to that part of German history. Given the context within what they are using this name for (even if it makes no sense for the story of the ride), I have little issue with the use of language there.
Having 4 young nieces and nephews into Bluey, it makes me think of all the people who look at all the jokes with the parents and pull out that they show is really about Mum and Dad being BDSM swingers, and have caused parent to boycott it because they think it will cause their kids to want to lead that lifestyle. Like why are we bastardizing a beloved kids show because your making connections like that?
Being a big time sports person it reminds me in the drive to get anything with Indigenous American out of team names and iconography. But most the polls of those populations often showed they just wanted to be honored the right way. FSU still faces pressure to change their school mascot/name despite Seminole Nation being overwhelmingly positive about being represented. Heck there's even people putting pressure on Notre Dame to drop "Fighting Irish" and their mascot because it's insensitive to the NI/Ireland conflict because of....well I lost track when a friend of mine that was their mascot when he went there was telling me about the death threats.
I miss the ability to do the 'bar test' of you go into any bar in America and if majority can't make the connection you're ok.
So here's where I ultimately land at:
If the German word for Storm invokes those thoughts to you when combined with another word, does that mean you should avoid using that completely? I think in a case like this context matters much more than anything else. This is in referencing something completely unrelated to that part of German history. Given the context within what they are using this name for (even if it makes no sense for the story of the ride), I have little issue with the use of language there.
Having 4 young nieces and nephews into Bluey, it makes me think of all the people who look at all the jokes with the parents and pull out that they show is really about Mum and Dad being BDSM swingers, and have caused parent to boycott it because they think it will cause their kids to want to lead that lifestyle. Like why are we bastardizing a beloved kids show because your making connections like that?
No one, as far as I know, is claiming to be offended—just that it's branding malpractice.
Framing the "Wölfsturm bad" side as people being offended is a strawman, as far as I can tell—and it keeps happening over and over again in this thread.
TheCoasterNerd
Previously known as @coasters_bgw
Branding malpractice that affects no one, in real life. The only people it seems to matter to, at all, is those online.
I don't know what "affects no one, in real life" means here. "Branding malpractice" does not require someone to be offended. Corporations, very reasonably, don't want their brand, consciously or subconsciously, to ever be in any way associated with Nazis in anyone's mind. No sane corporation ever wants a brand name that could ever have a conversation about it involve the sentence "Lol, that sounds like a Nazi militia." Any branding decision that could involve any conversation like that with any measurable frequency is an inherent and unnecessary brand risk (distraction, poor association, negative initial impression, etc) and, hence, pursuing it would, objectively, in my assessment, be "branding malpractice."
Have you ever observed a focus group? The "tell me the first thing that comes to mind when you hear _______" question exists for a reason—and if 2% say "Nazis," you've got a pretty clear problem. We, of course, do not have market research data to back up what percentage of the population hears "Wölfsturm" and thinks "Nazis," but surely, surely you can concede that if any measurable amount of the population does, it shouldn't be on BGW's list of finalists, no?
Also, quoting this back because it's highly relevant:
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