Project 2022: Pantheon

[UncleDuncan]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

BGW has been known to be meta at times in the past. Hence, I'm rooting for Big, Bad Starflyer.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

How will a new 300 ft coaster at BGW affect Kings Dominion?

 

[Zimmy]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

BTW I say B&M giga because one, it fits the terrain and height waver, two, BGW likes them and has some bad blood with Intamin.

Other 20% is a Starflyer and new land.

I was not questioning why you think BGW favors B&M, however I think that is currently up for debate. I am curious how you came to the specific numbers 80% and 20% as apposed to 17.5% and 82.5%. I am curious about the math, that is all.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

How will a new 300 ft coaster at BGW affect Kings Dominion?

This is a good regional question, because at first I was like: "Oh that's easy, it's likely to have no effect."

But then I thought about it.

KD is still an amusement park aimed at thrills. BGW is still a theme park aimed at immersion and experience.

But it would pit an interesting fight coaster for coaster:
I-305 v Project Madrid:
We would have to see if this is a B&M, but if it is anything that can give Fury a run for it's money this is a close battle. I would tip Madrid just because I prefer B&M's transitions to Intamin's. Plus if Madrid is an Intamin would BGW be hit for copying KD?

Apollo v Dominator:
I pitted this one because of the fact they are both sit down B&M's, but it's not really a fair fight. Neither park has something that can compete against the other, and so they get pitted. I take Apollo. Dominator has a strange rattle to me and it's ride is more forceful than Apollo who just.....glides.

Nessie v Anachonda
Battle of classic Arrows. And it's Nessie hands down.

Tempesto v Flight of Fear
I lean FOF here. A bigger rattle, but it feels like a real coaster. Tempesto is just.....blah.

Verbolten v Backlot Stunt:
Give me Bolt 10/10 times. Backlot is fun, but it's meant to work with SFX that...don't work. Plus the drop track is something KD can't match.

Alpengeist v Volcano:
Give em Volcano for the win! Alpengeist is a time a dozen B&M Invert that feels like it can go anywhere. It's themeing is top notch, but Volcano's one of a kind system and layout, with it's themeing is hard to beat.

Invadr v Grizzly:
Give me Invadr. Not just newer and smoother, but I like it's ride experience a little more.

Griffon v RMC Hurler/Richocet/Rebel Yell/Woodstock Express
Yes it's a bit unfair to pit 1 v 4, but that collection of 4 has 2 really tough to beat coasters and would take some special things from BGW.

Flats: Gimme BGW's because they are more classic, although KD does have great variety.

Shows: KD has shows?

I think Project Madrid being a coaster would close that gap some from an enthusiast perspective, but KD would have an edge just because of pure numbers. But if quality here BGW could make it a good fight despite the lack. BGW would just need 1 other woodie that could really finalize the competition at that point.

 

[Thomas]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Umm...

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Kudos for taking a stab at the question, but trying to match coasters up is a challenging format. Not quite apples to oranges, but apples to oranges, grapes, and bananas, maybe with some green clovers and blue diamonds for extra theming.

Your third line encapsulated the challenge very well though--two very different parks with two very different appeals. So probably hard to judge impact, at least by comparing Madrid + BGW's line-up to KD's. They might actually be less of competition to each other aside from where distance is a factor (e.g. locals that just want rides), or people don't have a park preference, or people who just want to spend limited budget on what's new.

As for locals and opinions... As a Virginian, my impression of BGW & KD has always been more-or-less like Coke vs. Pepsi. People tend to have an opinion, and a strong one. I personally drive past KD to get to BGW and have been to KD maybe 1/20 as many times. I'd rather go up to HP than KD.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Kudos for taking a stab at the question, but trying to match coasters up is a challenging format.  Not quite apples to oranges, but apples to oranges, grapes, and bananas, maybe with some green clovers and blue diamonds for extra theming.  

Your third line encapsulated the challenge though--two very different parks with two very different appeals. So probably hard to judge impact, at least by comparing Madrid + BGW's line-up to KD's.  They might less of competition to each other aside from where distance is a factor (e.g. locals that just want ride attractions).

As a Virginian, my impression of BGW & KD has always been more-or-less like Coke vs. Pepsi.  People tend to have an opinion, and a strong one.  I personally drive past KD to get to BGW and have been to KD maybe 1/20 as many times.  I'd rather go up to HP than KD.

Well said. I used to have Hersheypark as my "home park" (before I moved down here).

Yea it was tough to make it go apple for apple, and my tl;dr conclusion would be that they are too different to directly compare, however I think that its interesting to pit them against each other like that.

Those differences are why my first reaction was "Oh there's not way, because you can't compare them." But I dunno, if Project Madrid is a 300 foot coaster, it does bring these two parks a little closer together IMO.

 

[Nicole]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I, personally, don’t think the one-to-one comparison is the relevant question. I think the important issue is whether they build a record-breaking ride.

In my experience most people tend to be more concerned about best coasters in the park than about how all of the rides compare. So, if BGW builds something taller/faster/etc, or if they put in a type of coaster than isn’t currently anywhere else in the region, it will make them the thrill seekers destination.

How the less superlative rides stack up won’t matter as much.

I’m not saying everyone assesses parks this way. I’m not even saying I do. I’m saying that is a general pattern I have noticed.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I was kinda getting at that, you just said it much more concise than me.

I was just going to compare the top 3 from both parks and I think KD's I-305/Volcano/Twisted Timbers is better than BGW's top 3 (ATM IMO its AC, Grif, Nessie); but Project Madrid, if a coaster, has the potential of balancing that out.

EDIT: It's my own fault. I have a tendency to get wordy when I don't have to.

 

[Diamond Dave]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I just want to say I think Alpengeist doesn't get the love it deserves, definitely a top 3 at the park. My favorite invert, too. (I haven't been to KI since before Banshee was built)

I've been on just about every invert east of the Mississippi. Alpy is still my favorite

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

KD vs Hershey is actually better regional comparison IMO:

I305 vs Skyrush
Twisted Timbers vs Wildcat might change if you know what I mean
Dominator vs Farenheit
Volacno vs Great Bear
FOF vs Storm Runner
Rebel Yell vs Lightning Racer
Grizzly vs Comet
Anaconda vs Sidewinder
Woodstock Express vs SooperDooperLooper
Avalanche vs Trailblazer
Backlot vs Laff Track
Riccochet vs Wild Mouse
Kiddie coasters are equal
KD wins in flat rides
HP wins in food
Both are equal in appearance

I would say that both have an equal "top 5" collection though (Skyrush/GB/Fahrenheit/SR/LR vs I305/TwT/Dominator/Volcano/FoF, all in that order).

 

[Nicole]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So. Any new theories about Project Madrid?

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So.  Any new theories about Project Madrid?

If it's a coaster, it's a twister giga, and I'll show my work soon to back up this theory.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So.  Any new theories about Project Madrid?

If it's a coaster, it's a twister giga, and I'll show my work soon to back up this theory.

Do you think Intamin or B&M?

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I just want to make it clear to some that there is no proof this is a coaster. It's questions like these that make my head want to explode.

There is no definitive proof, sure, but putting two and two together it's looking likely that it will be one, especially if this is to open by 2019.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I can say which I prefer, but I'm not willing to guess who will be manufacturing the ride. Both major manufacturers have shown the ability to make terrific coasters in a multitude of layouts.

Not to mention the fact that there are other lesser known manufacturers out there that might be willing to construct bigger, and want to put themselves into the game of these magnitude of coasters.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So.  Any new theories about Project Madrid?

Ok, Process then theory:

So based on the work by others, the height waiver, and soil samples we know certain things:
1 - The areas that could be used.
2 - The top height placement.

So what I did was come up with a few giga layouts that could have it's peak height where we know it will be, touch the areas that have had some markings and testing. I picked: I-305, Levithan, and Goliath (I know not a Giga but I did this for a reason). I did a screen shot ensuring I had the scale at the same on every map. As I did the work I never changed the scale to ensure the best layover possible:

So then I traced out the layout so we could see better on BGW property what the track would look like.

ANd then I deleted the layover image to get just the track on BGW's property:

So What I come up with:

- I-305 Fits the bill nicely, as it ticks off all the boxes, but some issues. I-305 is a low to the ground twister, which often requires tighter footers. The station would need to be near Bolt's final drop to make this type of layout going. The positive is most of Festhaus Field is still open to expansion.

- Levathan So this one again fits with what we know, but it also hits spots that we know work hasn't been done to yet. I picked Levathan because it's a giga, but it's one of the shorter layouts. This would require 4 river crossings. This would put the station on Fiesta Fields side, and would have minimal impact to both sides of the river in terms of expansion.

- Goliath So I know not a giga, but I like it's layout. So things here: Takes up all of Fiesta field, which would mean that there's minimal room for expansion. The plus is that it would only cross the river twice, and is a combination that nicely bridges the gap of the near by Fury's out and back and I-305's twister.

So my theory:
If this is a coaster it's a combo layout, an out and back where we cross the river and go a little more into Festhaus park than Goliath's layover does (think how far back that Levathans goes). Then will cosdd the river to return, MCBR before diving into a tightly packed twister section that goes around the lift hill and the station. This would give space in Fiesta Field to keep expanding, as well as leaving Festhaus park open for Howl-O-Scream attractions.

 

[Coaster Takes]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So.  Any new theories about Project Madrid?

Ok, Process then theory:

So based on the work by others, the height waiver, and soil samples we know certain things:
1 - The areas that could be used.
2 - The top height placement.

So what I did was come up with a few giga layouts that could have it's peak height where we know it will be, touch the areas that have had some markings and testing. I picked: I-305, Levithan, and Goliath (I know not a Giga but I did this for a reason). I did a screen shot ensuring I had the scale at the same on every map. As I did the work I never changed the scale to ensure the best layover possible:

So then I traced out the layout so we could see better on BGW property what the track would look like.

ANd then I deleted the layover image to get just the track on BGW's property:

So What I come up with:

- I-305 Fits the bill nicely, as it ticks off all the boxes, but some issues. I-305 is a low to the ground twister, which often requires tighter footers. The station would need to be near Bolt's final drop to make this type of layout going. The positive is most of Festhaus Field is still open to expansion.

- Levathan So this one again fits with what we know, but it also hits spots that we know work hasn't been done to yet. I picked Levathan because it's a giga, but it's one of the shorter layouts. This would require 4 river crossings. This would put the station on Fiesta Fields side, and would have minimal impact to both sides of the river in terms of expansion.

- Goliath So I know not a giga, but I like it's layout. So things here: Takes up all of Fiesta field, which would mean that there's minimal room for expansion. The plus is that it would only cross the river twice, and is a combination that nicely bridges the gap of the near by Fury's out and back and I-305's twister.

So my theory:
If this is a coaster it's a combo layout, an out and back where we cross the river and go a little more into Festhaus park than Goliath's layover does (think how far back that Levathans goes). Then will cosdd the river to return, MCBR before diving into a tightly packed twister section that goes around the lift hill and the station. This would give space in Fiesta Field to keep expanding, as well as leaving Festhaus park open for Howl-O-Scream attractions.

I feel the way you created this blended in amazingly. I was wondering if you could do the same thing, but try to account the new soil tests around DF’s old station and warehouse. If you could attempt the take the overlays and position them so that the stations matched up with DF’s, then that could, or maybe not display ideas in the long run. What we can get from this is that busch has a ton of space to work with.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I feel the way you created this blended in amazingly. I was wondering if you could do the same thing, but try to account the new soil tests around DF’s old station and warehouse. If you could attempt the take the overlays and position them so that the stations matched up with DF’s, then that could, or maybe not display ideas in the long run. What we can get from this is that busch has a ton of space to work with.

I tried the best to include the new soil samples and did with 2 of the layovers. As for the DF station thing, that doesn't seem to be a supported rumor and positioning any of these layouts to use DF's station and have it's peak height at the location we know of is impossible. I was only using what is 100% known right now, and that is the peak height and spoil sample areas.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Why has nobody suggested a Fury-type layout?

---

I can say which I prefer, but I'm not willing to guess who will be manufacturing the ride. Both major manufacturers have shown the ability to make terrific coasters in a multitude of layouts.

Not to mention the fact that there are other lesser known manufacturers out there that might be willing to construct bigger, and want to put themselves into the game of these magnitude of coasters.

Like who? Only two existing companies have made gigas before. I guess Mack could give it a try.