Project 2019: Finnegan's Flyer (S&S Screamin' Swing)

[CastleOSullivan]

I honestly don't want another Cobra's Curse in Williamsburg. The theming is impeccable, but the ride itself is a real downer after the lift unless you were expecting something very tame. It might be a decent fit for Williamsburg, but I keep hearing from people who are thirsting for a 100% thrill coaster. Verbolten, in my opinion, is a fun ride, though it can't decide if it wants to be Cheetah Hunt or something right above Grover's Alpine Express. (What I wouldn't give to have Cheetah Hunt here.)

I think a flat ride would be quite sufficient for now, but their next coaster should be for the wilder crowd that hasn't received anything since Griffon in 2007.

 

[madmax]

I honestly don't want another Cobra's Curse in Williamsburg. The theming is impeccable, but the ride itself is a real downer after the lift unless you were expecting something very tame. It might be a decent fit for Williamsburg, but I keep hearing from people who are thirsting for a 100% thrill coaster. Verbolten, in my opinion, is a fun ride, though it can't decide if it wants to be Cheetah Hunt or something right above Grover's Alpine Express. (What I wouldn't give to have Cheetah Hunt here.)

I think a flat ride would be quite sufficient for now, but their next coaster should be for the wilder crowd that hasn't received anything since Griffon in 2007.

That's kind of why something like Fury 325 (B&M giga) would be a fantastic addition. Pleases both the GP and enthusiasts.

 

[warfelg]

I honestly don't want another Cobra's Curse in Williamsburg. The theming is impeccable, but the ride itself is a real downer after the lift unless you were expecting something very tame. It might be a decent fit for Williamsburg, but I keep hearing from people who are thirsting for a 100% thrill coaster. Verbolten, in my opinion, is a fun ride, though it can't decide if it wants to be Cheetah Hunt or something right above Grover's Alpine Express. (What I wouldn't give to have Cheetah Hunt here.)

I think a flat ride would be quite sufficient for now, but their next coaster should be for the wilder crowd that hasn't received anything since Griffon in 2007.

Very much in agreement here.

Being down in FL 2 months ago, I got on CC and....meh. Great theming around it, cool lift, but that's where it ends. The ride experience itself isn't all that great and rather overrated.

Agreed on Verbolten and it's grey area life. It's a pre-thrill coaster. Not ready for something like Griff or Aplie? But looking for more than Grover? Well here's InvadR and Bolt. And before people say things about the height requirement....it's something that there is a mountain out of a mole hill. Would it be nice to have something for your 3'6" kid? Heck yes. Is it making or breaking the park? No. And frankly, that height with a coaster is rare enough that not all parks have that. Most go from a Grover to a 48" with maybe a companion rider one in between. And if they do have a few of them, those coasters are typically older.

/rant

If they added a thrilling flat or a good flat, so they could ramp up into a thrill coaster, I would be ecstatic. I hope this would be something that they can finish by opening 2019 and announce it by Aug 2018; so if Project Madrid is still a go, they can focus most of 2019's marketing efforts on Project Madrid and 2020 being the big year. If they wanted to take a 1 or 2 year break from any big projects I would think a 4 year cycle of InvadR, BfE VR, Project Ireland, Project Madrid is a heck of a 4 year cycle that would earn them a little down time to make small tweaks to the park (like refurbishing buildings, updating shows, repaving areas, updating some landscaping).

 

[SLC Headache]

I honestly don't want another Cobra's Curse in Williamsburg. The theming is impeccable, but the ride itself is a real downer after the lift unless you were expecting something very tame. It might be a decent fit for Williamsburg, but I keep hearing from people who are thirsting for a 100% thrill coaster. Verbolten, in my opinion, is a fun ride, though it can't decide if it wants to be Cheetah Hunt or something right above Grover's Alpine Express. (What I wouldn't give to have Cheetah Hunt here.)

I think a flat ride would be quite sufficient for now, but their next coaster should be for the wilder crowd that hasn't received anything since Griffon in 2007.

Me, I consider Verbolten as intense as Nessie. Sorry, but two launches, a drop track, and an 88-foot drop is too much for a family coaster. Heck, InvadR isn't "right above Grover". That would be where the junior woodies like Woodstock Express or Oscar's Wacky Taxi go.

I still think we need the Cobra's Curse type ride (would it be cheaper to tame Verbolten?), but after taking in the views of others here, not until well after the headliner coaster.

2019 should be the beer samples and a thrill flat, we'll have to see how well the beer samples fare in Tampa first. We have plenty of regular flats, but Mach Tower is our only thrill flat.

 

[Celticdog]

Based upon the images that Zachary attached, this "structure" will only be about 25'-30' tall. The second image shows the topography in the area at an elevation around 55-60. The third image shows a max elevation (not height) of 90. There is a difference between height (tallness) and elevation. I think there may be some confusion between the two.

 

[madmax]

I honestly don't want another Cobra's Curse in Williamsburg. The theming is impeccable, but the ride itself is a real downer after the lift unless you were expecting something very tame. It might be a decent fit for Williamsburg, but I keep hearing from people who are thirsting for a 100% thrill coaster. Verbolten, in my opinion, is a fun ride, though it can't decide if it wants to be Cheetah Hunt or something right above Grover's Alpine Express. (What I wouldn't give to have Cheetah Hunt here.)

I think a flat ride would be quite sufficient for now, but their next coaster should be for the wilder crowd that hasn't received anything since Griffon in 2007.

Me, I consider Verbolten as intense as Nessie. Sorry, but two launches, a drop track, and an 88-foot drop is too much for a family coaster. Heck, InvadR isn't "right above Grover". That would be where the junior woodies like Woodstock Express or Oscar's Wacky Taxi go.

I still think we need the Cobra's Curse type ride (would it be cheaper to tame Verbolten?), but after taking in the views of others here, not until well after the headliner coaster.

2019 should be the beer samples and a thrill flat, we'll have to see how well the beer samples fare in Tampa first. We have plenty of regular flats, but Mach Tower is our only thrill flat.

If your kid is too afraid to ride Invadr or Verbolten then he/she shouldn't be riding coasters at all. They're supposed to be scary: that's part of the fun.

 

[Nicole]

I don’t think it is reasonable to assert that your preferences are the universally correct approach.

I, for one, am not the least bit interested in being either frightened or thrown around like a rag doll. I have seen both identified on this Forum as the reasons to ride coasters.

I like the feel of specific forces. I do not need to be scared or injured to enjoy those.

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

But rides need to be FUCKING EXTREME or they're worthless.

 

[..…]

Me, I consider Verbolten as intense as Nessie. Sorry, but two launches, a drop track, and an 88-foot drop is too much for a family coaster. Heck, InvadR isn't "right above Grover". That would be where the junior woodies like Woodstock Express or Oscar's Wacky Taxi go.

I have to agree with this. My 10-year-old nephew loved Nessie but couldn't quite handle Verbolten (he was a little shell shocked for a good hour and a half after riding).

 

[warfelg]

If your kid is too afraid to ride Invadr or Verbolten then he/she shouldn't be riding coasters at all. They're supposed to be scary: that's part of the fun.

The answer to this is agree and disagree at the same time.

Let just start with if your kid is too afraid of InvadR and Bolt, there's nothing wrong with that, and you shouldn't force them to ride. 'Fear' is such an individualized concept. When I was little I was terrified of coasters. Then one trip to WDW my parents 'forced' me to go on SpaceMountain (really it was go through the line and if I didn't want to they would have me wait at the exit). I went on, crying the whole way, and wanted to get back on right after. Took me another 2 years to ride my next coaster (not because of not getting to parks, I wasn't ready) going on Wildcat at Lake Compounce (was only 3 miles from my house). Didn't go on my first Hyper until I was 9 (Phantoms revenge) and that was because I didn't know about the second drop. I was scared of coasters that tall. Didn't go on my first inverted until I was 12 because being upsidedown I though I would fall out. They were all barriers to overcome.

Yes having something that's not as big as those two would help, but almost every kid has a different reason for being scared of a coaster so it's hard to pinpoint what exactly you need for that demographic. Take Bolt for example. When I was there Friday with the Music in the Park kids, hanging out near Bolt I heard so many excuses for not riding (hiding they were scared) from "Don't like the indoors", "looks too fast", "don't like that it's over water", even to "The sides aren't closed". At InvadR I heard "Wood isn't safe", "The tunnel is too small", "The bear head can fly off", to "There's no tall hill to slow it down". Take all those reasons for not riding....how do you change those elements to make the ride more appealing?

Answer is you don't, you build the ride and if people don't ride it they don't.

But, you need rides that those people will go on, especially with coasters.

I work in an industry where 99% of our talk is how do you get kids excited, pick up the game, stick with it. That's a tough thing, because just like above it's all to the individual.

How does a park change that?

Well I'm for picking up somewhere along the line a Vekoma Family Invert. Smaller, doesn't have huge drops, works mostly on turns. Has the shorter height limit. Then the logical build up for that kid is they like that ride, so they would move to Alpie next, and build off of that. Oh they like going on Nessie...eventually they'll like going on Griff because it's a logical build up.

I would argue that InvadR is a great build up coaster for anyone, and a great starting point. But if a kid is scared of it, it doesn't mean they shouldn't ride coasters, just means they aren't ready for that one and they have barriers to overcome.

 

[warfelg]

Me, I consider Verbolten as intense as Nessie. Sorry, but two launches, a drop track, and an 88-foot drop is too much for a family coaster. Heck, InvadR isn't "right above Grover". That would be where the junior woodies like Woodstock Express or Oscar's Wacky Taxi go.

I have to agree with this. My 10-year-old nephew loved Nessie but couldn't quite handle Verbolten (he was a little shell shocked for a good hour and a half after riding).

It's funny because my mom, who hates coasters, loves Bolt and hates Nessie and it's all because of launch vs lift. She's a little afraid of heights, but really it's the slow climb. And she thought Nessie was full of force, but Bolt felt like the way she drives.

 

[..…]

It's funny because my mom, who hates coasters, loves Bolt and hates Nessie and it's all because of launch vs lift.  She's a little afraid of heights, but really it's the slow climb.  And she thought Nessie was full of force, but Bolt felt like the way she drives.

That's a really good point. I'd never considered it, but it makes complete sense that if you're afraid of heights, launch allows you to avoid all the negative anticipation. That's the great thing about having so many different coasters/manufacturers. The elements that make each one unique makes it possible for most people to find at least one they like.

On another note, if your mom drives like a Bolt train, I imagine being a passenger in her car would be terrifying.

I know most people hate the clinking sound of the dogs on lift coasters, but personally I find the sound a comforting reminder that they exist.

 

[SLC Headache]

But rides need to be FUCKING EXTREME or they're worthless.

Pretty much my mindset when judging a new thrill coaster. I will cut older extreme rides, basically anything before Magnum, some slack in this regard, and will consider excessive intensity a defect on a coaster intended for a family audience.

It's funny because my mom, who hates coasters, loves Bolt and hates Nessie and it's all because of launch vs lift.  She's a little afraid of heights, but really it's the slow climb.  And she thought Nessie was full of force, but Bolt felt like the way she drives.

That's a really good point. I'd never considered it, but it makes complete sense that if you're afraid of heights, launch allows you to avoid all the negative anticipation. That's the great thing about having so many different coasters/manufacturers. The elements that make each one unique makes it possible for most people to find at least one they like.

On another note, if your mom drives like a Bolt train, I imagine being a passenger in her car would be terrifying.

I know most people hate the clinking sound of the dogs on lift coasters, but personally I find the sound a comforting reminder that they exist.

Backlot was the one to get me back on rides, long after KD's woodies were too much for little me. But then again, the big helix on that one is a slow climb of sorts, and in line for the first time, I thought the launch would have been too much for me.

At the very least, the acceleration from Verbolten's launches is like absolutely flooring it in most cars, and I don't think I've encountered real roads that have turns tight enough and speed limits high enough to be analogous to Verbolten's turns. Though the pops of airtime (save for the drop track and main drop) are very similar to one on my morning commute.

 

[Adam]

Based upon the images that Zachary attached, this "structure" will only be about 25'-30' tall. The second image shows the topography in the area at an elevation around 55-60. The third image shows a max elevation (not height) of 90. There is a difference between height (tallness) and elevation. I think there may be some confusion between the two.

The image does state "Maximum Height of Improvements" rather than maximum elevation though. I believe the county regulations state that a height waiver is required for anything that will exceed 60' above grade, so the 90' height waiver is likely 90' above grade at the lowest point. That being said, there is about 20-25' relief in grade between the highest existing elevation to the lowest, in the area of the structure, so we could potentially see something that is 65-70' tall from path level (i.e. max elevation of ~125-130).

 

[UncleDuncan]

We have to think about what Ireland is currently missing. Two things come to mind immediately: an inflatable bounce house and a shrine to Irish Hip Hop. With that said, it's obvious what we're looking at for 2019.

House o' Pain presents Jump Around: a 90 foot interactive musical bounce venue and bar.

 

[warfelg]

Backlot was the one to get me back on rides, long after KD's woodies were too much for little me. But then again, the big helix on that one is a slow climb of sorts, and in line for the first time, I thought the launch would have been too much for me.

At the very least, that acceleration is like absolutely flooring it in a regular car, and I don't think I've encountered real roads that have turns tight enough and speed limits high enough to be analogous to Verbolten's turns. Though the pops of airtime (save for the drop track and main drop) are very similar to one on my morning commute.

TBH a few things here:
You can't compare what's going on with a coaster to your morning commute from a pure physics standpoint. Between the banking, the tightness of turns, and physical grip limitations cars are unable to maneuver like that.

And between BLSC and Bolt, the Helix is roughly (give or take 2-5 feet) the same size. If they traveled at the same speed you could barely notice a difference. What you are feeling is the difference in banking (Bolt is more banked giving more positive G forces), and the roughly 8-9 MPH difference in speed.

Next time your on a clover (the full turnaround) highway ramp, go 40 (if your car can). The next time go 50. You'll notice a huge difference in forces, even with the same exact ramp.

That's the difference you are experiencing. To add in, BLST goes double the height with it's helix, so the forces decrease much more than Bolts.

In fact if BLST hit it's helix at the same speed as Bolts, and Bolt hit it's helix at BLSC's speed; I would be very willing to bet that you would say the exact opposite about each coaster.

Because #physics.

I could get deeper into what adds to those sensations and why even at the same speed 2 helix's and 2 airtime hills could feel completely different even though they are identical, or how the exact same helix could feel different to different people.

 

[Celticdog]

The image does state "Maximum Height of Improvements" rather than maximum elevation though. I believe the county regulations state that a height waiver is required for anything that will exceed 60' above grade, so the 90' height waiver is likely 90' above grade at the lowest point. That being said, there is about 20-25' relief in grade between the highest existing elevation to the lowest, in the area of the structure, so we could potentially see something that is 65-70' tall from path level (i.e. max elevation of ~125-130).

The third figure shows the bridge at 65.5', not at the existing grades which are much lower down. If James City County does interpret the third figure as such, then the top of the structure could actually be at elevation 155.5. Bridge elevation of 65.5 plus 90'. That's way above the valley floor.

You are correct the County code for the M-1 zoning district is for anything over 60' above existing/finished grades. https://library.municode.com/va/james_city_county/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=CD_ORD_CH24ZO_ARTVDI_DIV11LIBUINDIM-_S24-418HEST

 

[SLC Headache]

You can't compare what's going on with a coaster to your morning commute from a pure physics standpoint.  Between the banking, the tightness of turns, and physical grip limitations cars are unable to maneuver like that.

I was only replying because you said your mom said Verbolten felt like the way she drives.

In fact if BLST hit it's helix at the same speed as Bolts, and Bolt hit it's helix at BLSC's speed; I would be very willing to bet that you would say the exact opposite about each coaster.

Backlot could have afforded to be more intense. KD had a mouse, junior woodie, and bobsled, and I don't think The Italian Job was a family movie to begin with.

Intensity was the last thing Verbolten needed.

But back on this potential expansion, I really hope this isn't a coaster. That could possibly blow the budget for the 315-foot attraction. The main way to get thrills without height is a launch, and unless this is a Maverick killer, we'd have a ride that is redundant with Verbolten, and then a silly tower thing.

 

[Adam]

The third figure shows the bridge at 65.5', not at the existing grades which are much lower down. If James City County does interpret the third figure as such, then the top of the structure could actually be at elevation 155.5. Bridge elevation of 65.5 plus 90'. That's way above the valley floor.

You are correct the County code for the M-1 zoning district is for anything over 60' above existing/finished grades.

But the structure would not be over top of the bridge, so the existing grade would be the valley floor, or the lowest elevation that is directly below the structure. That's why I believe that we're probably looking at a maximum elevation of around 125-130, since the lowest contour within the area of the structure is close to 35' or 40'.  The distance, if I'm interpreting the code correctly, is measured at the point where the distance between the top of the structure and the existing/finished grade directly below is the greatest.

 

[madmax]

I don’t think it is reasonable to assert that your preferences are the universally correct approach.

I, for one, am not the least bit interested in being either frightened or thrown around like a rag doll. I have seen both identified on this Forum as the reasons to ride coasters.

I like the feel of specific forces. I do not need to be scared or injured to enjoy those.

That doesn’t mean build a lame, forceless coaster. Kids need to grow a pair.