Christmas Town

[netdvn]

All the park really needs to do is just increase park capacity by opening more rides. CT is already a limited event because most of the rides are down so adding more won't really hut the park more than opening the park on weekdays in June and August when crowds are already fairly light.

Have Alpengeist, Pesto, and Bolt running like Zach's idea. This should help disperse some of the crowds between those three rides instead of having all the crowds in Oktoberfest, which is already crowded enough with the Festhaus, the marketplace cutting off some of the pathway and the fact that all the rides are running.

Opening up the LOD treehouse, FOF, and adding an extra attraction in the Festhaus Park would def be a great idea to help disperse the crowds on the pathways. Park could also bring back penguins and stick that in another section of the park like the Deadline area or something.

Compare park crowds on an average busy day during summer and HOS with CT. Its a lot easier to walk around the park on a 35k+ day in fall than it is to walk around during a capacity crowd at CT because the crowds are dispersed between the rides and mazes.

More stuff to do would also give the park incentive to bump the price up and perhaps include CT in the annual/plat passes.

 

[PrincessArlenasDad]

I agree it would be great to expand the available attractions, whether it be little kid oriented (FoF or LoD) or coasters, or little of each.

I'm just saying I think the park will be conservative, and wait to see what crowds are like in an average weather year before doing so.

That said, making low/zero cost crowd flow changes is an obvious thing they should do (like move the Carolers and façade, line control for the ice show, etc.)

As for raising prices; as Zachary said, pricing people out of the event would also result in decreased food/shopping revenue. I really don't think increased ticket prices to less people would be enough to make up that revenue.

Could increasing the number of attractions give the park justification to raise ticket prices? Sure. But, I don't think most people would care that there are more attractions when they see a price increase. After all, are most people going for the rides that are available in the spring, summer, and fall? Or, are most people going for the attractions unique to CT, namely shows, lights, and Santa?

Also, I don't agree that these crowds would result in guest satisfaction poor enough to hurt attendance next year. With low ticket prices, the question will be is, did people get their moneys worth? At $14, it doesn't take much (two shows, lights, and a handful of rides). Yes, people would enjoy it more if crowds are light. But, CT has hardly any competition for outdoor winter family activities, this side of FL. As long as the kids have fun, it's worth the $14, AND PEOPLE HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO REPLACE THE ACTIVITY WITH, people will keep on coming, regardless of crowds.

As was mentioned previously (I forget by who), FL parks have wall to wall people for their holiday events. Yet, people pay a LOT more for Disney, KNOWING there will be packed crowds. And, BGW has a comparable number of unique CT attractions than Disney has unique Mickey's party attractions. And, FL parks have lots of competition. BGW has no winter competition.

 

[Jrbgwfan06]

Increasing the price of admission is not going to decrease the value of the event, people will still pay to go. Last time the park had a major increase in Christmas Town general admission price was 2013, and they were actually down one show that year, with the only new attraction being a revamped Aquitaine theme. Christmas Town is a great value, and I have thought forever now that it is substantially underpriced. The park wouldn't even need to open new attractions with an increased general admission price, people will still come. But adding some new attractions to increase in-park capacity isn't a bad idea, either.

 

[Nicole]

I don't think the question is what the park WILL do, but rather what we as regular and loyal guests think the park SHOULD do.

Given the variability of weather in Virginia, it makes no sense to "wait and see." If 2016 turns out to be another temperate and dry December, it will be too late to expand the event. They need to plan for larger staff; schedule annual maintenance; and possibly increase the scope of their decorations IN ADVANCE.

My impression is that every year since CT started, the event has grown in popularity. I do not believe the park has the luxury of making a few small, inexpensive changes to address the overwhelming crowding it has seen this year.

I think we have (anecdotal) evidence that the hordes of people on the paths and in the shops are in fact already affecting the guest experience. While it is possible that people who bought the cheap tickets believe they got their money's worth, they are in no way the only guests in the park. Members of this Forum have reported leaving early in frustration and skipping the event entirely, because of the uncontrolled crowding we have seen this year. I am personally confident that regular pass members are NOT pleased with their experiences this season, and I would not be surprised if they are less likely to plan to attend as often (or at all) next year. In fact, I personally know of people who have cancelled plans between now and the end of the event, because CT has become so unpleasant.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim that there are no alternatives. The 100 Miles of Lights has a wide variety of light displays and Christmas "villages." I, myself, attended four different events this past weekend in Tidewater. the contention that there are no alternatives is patently untrue.

I go to Florida every Christmas and always visit at least some of the parks. The analogy between BGW and those parks simply isn't valid (and if you are citing me, I believe you took me out of context). Disney, SWO, BGT, LEGOLAND, etc keep everything open year-round, to include during the holiday season. Yes, they have special events, but guests can still visit the regular attractions, as well. The result is that the increased crowd levels can be better accommodated than in Williamsburg, where a large portion of the rides and some hamlets are closed. The fact is that the number of guests we are seeing isn't really any higher than at other busy times like HOS and the 4th of July. The difference is that there is significantly less to do, leaving a much greater percentage of guests on the paths. That is why we all are looking for places and rides to open to draw people off the paths and out of the shops.

Honestly, I don't understand the opposition to the idea that BGW should open some additional areas and attractions.

 

[PrincessArlenasDad]

From a guest experience perspective, they absolutely SHOULD have more attractions and areas open.

I think you hit the nail on the head in your opening sentence; the difference of what they SHOULD do and WILL do.

What they will do is what their analytics conclude will provide the greatest profit, with some sought of balance between long term and short term.

While you give a great explanation of what and why you think the park should do, my post was concerning what I think the park will do.

And, you bring up an interesting point. People are visiting the park less often than they would, because of the crowds. Could this be by design? Perhaps their profit margin is greater with more guests visiting just once, than pass holders visiting over and over again? Perhaps, when people are there just for the one day, they stay longer hours, meaning more snacks/means/beverages. If people come numerous times, maybe they'll only stay for a couple of hours, have 1 snack, less beverages, etc.

It's not just a question of how many people are in the park, but also maximizing purchases once there.

As for the WDW comparison; I think it is valid. Most people with a party ticket also have a regular ticket as well. All the rides, decorations, and many of the characters are there for their daytime visit. They pay a LOT extra just for the party "extras" (shows, parade, special fireworks, etc.) So, the fact that Disney has all their rides open doesn't really increase demand for the event. And, from experience, most of the rides at Disney are empty during the party, as that is not what the people are there for. The result is that the walkways are much more crowded than usual, just like at BGW. That was my comparison.

As for lack of competition: I should have been more clear. I'm coming from the perspective of my neck of the woods, near DC. Only BG has anything worth driving that type of distance for, and really not anything around here.

I completely agree that out of control crowds harm guest experience. But, as you said, it's gotten more popular every year, despite the large crowds last year. For some of those that visit the park often, it apparently has reached a breaking point. But, until a significant number of park goers reach that breaking point, the park will continue to utilize low ticket prices to bring the hordes in and maximize in park expenditures/person.

Now, will they open more rides and areas? Personally, I DO HOPE that they do. After all, that would increase my family's enjoyment as well. But, given the large crowds last year, and lack of expansion this year, I am not optimistic for expansion next year; my GUESS is they are too worried about weather killing guest numbers to commit to increasing resources to the event.

Hopefully I am wrong.

 

[MAZ]

If the Florida parks can keep their coasters 'operating' all season, I don't think that BGW can use the 'off season maintenance' excuse. Make a phone call and get the info/protocol on nonstop yearly coaster operation. Yes we all get it, that the coasters can't operate below 38 degrees, but there's absolutely no reason for the attractions to NOT be available to open under optimum weather conditions. This year seems like everything could be operating comfortably weather wise. Being 'on call' to operate a coaster in unpredictable va weather seems like something nobody would agree to, but you would be surprised at people's ambition when payed well. It just seems like BG is just sitting back watching like, oh well, we're doing all we can do with the park. Teach the carollers how to operate Apollo and you're killing two birds with one stone

 

[Jrbgwfan06]

I don't necessarily want all the coasters to open for Christmas Town, at least not in the very near future. I think Tempesto and Alpengeist should be added to the CT line up within the next two years or so. They could open Alpengeist next year, because the theming is completely fine, and the area already gets decorated for CT anyway. Tempesto could open next year or the year after next with a Christmas overlay.(Rudolph Coaster?) And if it becomes necessary, they could do Apollo's Chariot and Griffon the years after that. To be honest though, I don't think Nessie should open during Christmas Town. I mean I would love to be able to ride it year-round, and I guess it would be more weather tolerant than the other coasters, but I like to believe she needs her beauty sleep.

 

[Imaginique]

I too have been stuck there...literally every visit to CT (which has been almost every operating day....livid...they do need to move them over to big ben. I hate large crowds but I can usually just "deal" with it. However, there have been a couple of instances were I almost panicked. Everyone gets packed tightly in there. I could easily see someone getting hurt.

I did have a near panic attack last year due to the same reason; carolers on the steps cause people to stop, others shoving, someone hopped over my small stroller with my child in it. It was a nightmare. I've complained about it on their FB page and through guest relations email. This year when I saw them singing there again it made that panic feeling come back. Though the crowd wasn't as bad, and we no longer use a stroller, it was still frustrating and it doesn't put me in a jolly exiting mood. Which is sad, because the carolers have lovely voices. I have fond memories of my kid dancing to the carolers when they were in front of Big Ben in 2012. Now I dread hearing them.


Weather has been super nice this year, so I can see why that would cause the mass of crowds. Everyone is taking advantage before the weather may change. This time 5 years ago there was snow on the ground. 2010 was the only year I've missed Christmastown due to the snow we had just after Christmas.

 

[John]

Despite the crowds I was able to snag a few decent pictures. (12/11)

 

[UncleDuncan]

As a sane and reasonable person who experienced CT for the first time the previous Sunday before last, I can say with near 100 percent certainty I will never go back to BGW in the vicinity of Jesus' birthday ever again. It was so bad, I can't even bring myself to write up a negative review. I get pissed off just thinking about it in passing. BGW should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Mushroom]

Would you mind elaborating? I was recently criticized on here for expressing a negative opinion without presenting supporting information. So what made your experience so bad?

 

[Zachary]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious as well...

Or maybe I just want to hear more fantastic, bitter snark from Reggae. Either is a possibility.

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

While Raggae doesn't really need defending, hr did mention in a previous post that he had a very bad time due to the crowds, which I don't blame him at all.

 

[UncleDuncan]

Would you mind elaborating? I was recently criticized on here for expressing a negative opinion without presenting supporting information. So what made your experience so bad?

Crowds, more specifically, crowd control. BGW can haz none. Which in and of itself is not so bad except when taking into account...

Service. What a complete clusterfuck. I don't even know where to begin so I'm not going to even try. I have never seen any park operate so poorly. I'd rather be at a Six Flags and no, I'm not being snarky.

Food. If you're going to rip me off for a refillable cup for hot chocolate, please ensure that a. said hot chocolate is hot, and b. NOT TO RUN OUT OF THE FUCKING HOT CHOCOLATE.

I honestly didn't even want to elaborate this much. I'm a hard person to anger, and I'm still pissed. I feel ripped off. I genuinely hope someone at BGW is reading my words right now: I will never, never, NEVER, NEVER return to ChristmasTown. Keep your sham event.

 

[BGW Family]

Add to that - music soooooo loud, all over the park, the only way to talk to the person next to you to was to yell.

 

[John]

Might as well chime in...

I agree with Reggae. Crowd control was a NIGHTMARE. Specifically in Aquitaine and Jack Hanna's WLR. It was obviously due to 'Twas That Night, but on a macro level, the park CAN NOT, fill parking to capacity during this event. They were parking across 60 last Sunday for Christ's sake. Between, cutting off paths, and lack of functional attractions, it simply does not work.

 

[Mushroom]

Just since crowd control seems to be SUCH a terrible issue (I've only been once, on a moderately crowded day, and even then crowds got very backed up in some area), I'm going to just lay out EVERY possible option for helping crowd control. That way we have one consolidated place to look at the park's options.

The following areas could be open:
- Land of the Dragons
- Sesame Street Forest of Fun
- Grimm's Landung*
- Festhaus Park

*Has been cited as a safety hazard due to ice, but perhaps it could be opened on warmer days where ice is not a threat.

The following attractions could be open:
- Europe in the Air (possible Polar Express overlay?)
- Curse of DarKastle
- Alpengeist
- Tempesto
- New animal encounter?

Additional options:
- Removal of Ripper Row/Scrooge No More facades in Banbury Cross to decrease bottlenecking

- Relocation of the Plinko game in Polar Pathway to decrease crowding

- Relocation of Gloria! queue in Wild Reserve to decrease congestion (My crazy solution is to have guests wait in the Unearthed queue and slowly escort them across the path, in groups, as showtime approaches... although this clearly has its own complications)

- Extending 'Twas That Night's queue into every turn within the back of the Wild Reserve. There are a few unused twisting paths in the back of the Wild Reserve that could fit at least a few hundred more people.

- Finally, INCREASE TICKET PRICES. This includes Twinkle Tickets. There is clearly enough demand for the event that people will still come, even with a drastic price increase. Ideally, ticket prices would actually become high enough to keep attendance numbers below capacity, and the park would still be making more money off of ticket sales than before.

The one issue I cannot figure out is the horrid crowding that occurs after shows (especially Scrooge No More and 'Twas That Night) let out. My only solution is to offer some sort of little "post-show", a miniature performance that entices SOME guests to stay and slowly trickle out, as opposed to everybody flooding out at once. But I have no idea how well this would work in practice.

What do you all think?

 

[Nicole]

Great summary, Joe.

Three thoughts:

1. I would advocate bringing back the penguins, specifically. They were very popular, and of course seasonal.

2. I think it is essential for BGW to manage the sale of the cheap tickets. They need to limit the number that are available each day.

3. I believe having designated tour group days would help manage the crowd levels, as well. Preferably, on weekdays.

 

[wombat96]

You could do a Christmas themed train attraction similar to what was done back in the days of HOS but that's just me. It's not like people adored the train or anything like that and are begging for any variation of a train attraction for HOS or anything like that. It'd be fun if they did a low capacity carriage ride in Festhuas Park. In all seriousness, they really need to just open two or more attractions and the crowds could change drastically. Griffon and Alpie are  CT approved, plus if they close for weather V-Bolt can run in lower temperatures so there will always be a fall-back. If Grover follows the same Zierer weather protocol it could run as well most likely.

 

[Unagi]

The one issue I cannot figure out is the horrid crowding that occurs after shows (especially Scrooge No More and 'Twas That Night) let out. My only solution is to offer some sort of little "post-show", a miniature performance that entices SOME guests to stay and slowly trickle out, as opposed to everybody flooding out at once. But I have no idea how well this would work in practice.

What do you all think?

I really don't think there is a remedy for post-show crowding outside these venues.  With TTN at the RPT, the pathways are just too thin and narrow to handle the crowd dispersal from the theatre.  Add to that the amount of people that are already walking along the pathways to see the decorations. It's the perfect formula for creating a clusterf*ck! With Scrooge, there are always gonna be people in England since that area is the point of entry and exit into and out of the park with the clock being the most popular meet-up point amongst visitors.

And I'm not sure if post-show activities would work since the park is already operating on limited daily hours. People are rushing out of a venue to go see something else.