RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
They're good for families and people that don't ride roller coasters or a lot of the rides.
They're good for families and people that don't ride roller coasters or a lot of the rides.
BGW Attendance
- Thread starter pandorazboxx
- Start date
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
When I was naming shows that have been lost in recent seasons, and that directly affect my impression of the park, I can't believe I forgot to mention The Starlight Orchestra. That was another major show that used to play at the Italian restaurant stage, another stage that used to have two shows. It truly is a shame how low the park has sunk in regards to entertainment compared to just two or three years ago.
When I was naming shows that have been lost in recent seasons, and that directly affect my impression of the park, I can't believe I forgot to mention The Starlight Orchestra. That was another major show that used to play at the Italian restaurant stage, another stage that used to have two shows. It truly is a shame how low the park has sunk in regards to entertainment compared to just two or three years ago.
gardener14 said:
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
First of all, to address this idea that it's familiarity that is breeding this discontent: I can say that for me, it certainly isn't that. I joined the Navy 5 years ago, and since then have lived in California, Baltimore and now Canada. Needless to say, I have not been in a position to frequent the park like I used to. I'm not there enough (0 in 2007, 1 in 2008, 2 in 2009, 2 in 2010, 0 so far in 2011) to have a familiarity problem. It is 150% content related.
Second, saying that BG is slipping is not the same as saying it sucks. Kings Dominion and Six Flags suck. I have absolutely zero interest in either park. I still enjoy Busch Gardens, but I just don't get excited about going like I used to. For example, I'm going for my first (and probably only) time in 2011 tomorrow, and I don't even plan on getting there until 2 or so. In years past, if for some reason I didn't get there at open, I was mad. It's not what it used to be.
Third, everyone on here who agrees with me that it's not what it used to be is listing the same root causes, which means none of us is crazy. Others are seeing what we're seeing.
Bottom line: a day at the theme park is about having enjoyable entertainment experiences in a cohesive environment (that should be in a text book). Rides are ONE vehicle for this..but shows are a huge part, dining experiences, visual elements, cast member interactions, etc. All are EQUALLY important. I have no interest in trekking around a 10 mile area going from roller coaster to slingshot to brain scrambler all day. These kinds of experiences must be counterbalanced with tamer forms, to produce a variety of entertainments and give me the sense that I've had a thoroughly enjoyable, all-day EXPERIENCE. In the case of Busch Gardens, the theming is in place. The canvas has been coated with Titanium White, as Bob Ross might say. All you have to do now is populate the canvas with interesting elements. It's not happening. In fact, the opposite happens. Formerly interesting things are replaced with less-interesting ones. This is what is "going wrong" with the park.
First of all, to address this idea that it's familiarity that is breeding this discontent: I can say that for me, it certainly isn't that. I joined the Navy 5 years ago, and since then have lived in California, Baltimore and now Canada. Needless to say, I have not been in a position to frequent the park like I used to. I'm not there enough (0 in 2007, 1 in 2008, 2 in 2009, 2 in 2010, 0 so far in 2011) to have a familiarity problem. It is 150% content related.
Second, saying that BG is slipping is not the same as saying it sucks. Kings Dominion and Six Flags suck. I have absolutely zero interest in either park. I still enjoy Busch Gardens, but I just don't get excited about going like I used to. For example, I'm going for my first (and probably only) time in 2011 tomorrow, and I don't even plan on getting there until 2 or so. In years past, if for some reason I didn't get there at open, I was mad. It's not what it used to be.
Third, everyone on here who agrees with me that it's not what it used to be is listing the same root causes, which means none of us is crazy. Others are seeing what we're seeing.
Bottom line: a day at the theme park is about having enjoyable entertainment experiences in a cohesive environment (that should be in a text book). Rides are ONE vehicle for this..but shows are a huge part, dining experiences, visual elements, cast member interactions, etc. All are EQUALLY important. I have no interest in trekking around a 10 mile area going from roller coaster to slingshot to brain scrambler all day. These kinds of experiences must be counterbalanced with tamer forms, to produce a variety of entertainments and give me the sense that I've had a thoroughly enjoyable, all-day EXPERIENCE. In the case of Busch Gardens, the theming is in place. The canvas has been coated with Titanium White, as Bob Ross might say. All you have to do now is populate the canvas with interesting elements. It's not happening. In fact, the opposite happens. Formerly interesting things are replaced with less-interesting ones. This is what is "going wrong" with the park.
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Nice post, thanks. Interesting thoughts.
BTW, what part of Baltimore did you live in when you were there? I lived there most of my life.
Nice post, thanks. Interesting thoughts.
BTW, what part of Baltimore did you live in when you were there? I lived there most of my life.
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Thank you, Doctormoneymd, for stating your thoughts so well. I agree with your "bottom line" paragraph entirely.
Thank you, Doctormoneymd, for stating your thoughts so well. I agree with your "bottom line" paragraph entirely.
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Not the city proper. Fort Meade/Columbia area. How about you?
Shafor said:
Not the city proper. Fort Meade/Columbia area. How about you?
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
We lived on the southeast side, Highlandtown/Canton area.
So what was your impression of the park after your first visit of 2011?
doctormoneymd said:
We lived on the southeast side, Highlandtown/Canton area.
So what was your impression of the park after your first visit of 2011?
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Short question, long answer. I had a great time yesterday, actually. The heat was nearly unbearable, but it kept the crowds at bay (at least I think it was the heat!). I arrived around 1:30, and my primary objective was to see the Illuminights shows. I rode Pompeii, [the] Griffon, Darkastle and Apollo's Chariot. Nothing new there, although all of the talk on here about costumes and theming had me noticing things I normally probably wouldn't have thought about. I'll say that I honestly think Escape From Pompeii is the most well put-together attraction in the park. The set-up, the atmosphere, the costumes...I took note yesterday of just how complete that experience is. Anyway...
Uh, I'll say that the park had a bit of the old feel yesterday, but I'm 100% sure that that was because of Illuminights. The performances gave me something to do with my time, and, for the most part made good use of the hamlets. I went to Mix It Up and Celtic Fyre, as well. Let's see...grading based on the quality of the shows available vs. what I think the potential of a better, replacement show in the same space could be:
Mix It Up: Well executed, but weird. I was entertained by the show, yes, but I couldn't figure out who these chefs were...who they were supposed to be cooking for...why they knew how to play trumpets...who the waiters were...why they were there...and what any of this had to do with Italy. Grade: C+
Celtic Fyre: I've seen this before, and I still don't really like it. For what it's worth, my wife liked it better than the old shows (EB and IT). To me, it's convoluted and hard to follow, and not very Irish (or, at least, not very magical, which is the value of the hamlet). Part of the problem is not content, but the sound equipment, which muffles speech and makes the lyrics of the story songs hard to understand, which drags down the show. And I hate the American dance-off set up. Still, an improvement over the first time I saw it, so... Grade: C-
Illuminights Ireland: Cool use of magical imagery, good performance from the Leprechaun guy. Nice set up and cool puppets. The only thing I didn't like were the constant pop culture references and the fact that this leprechaun was taking advice from what appeared to be randomly selected puppets of a dog, a goat (?) and a chicken. It very much looked like they had just found a couple of puppets around and tried to use them in a show, rather than building dedicated puppets. He should have been getting advice from older Leprechauns. Oh well. Grade: B-
Illuminights France: Cool deal with the can-can girls and the acrobats, and the whistle guy. I thought it was lame that he was on a wire, because it makes it look less dangerous, but if I were up there, I'd want a wire, so its cool. Complaints: the set and stage and props and mens' costumes looked cheap. Those cardboard champagne bottles an didn't do the area any design favours either. Overall, though, enjoyable and French enough. Grade: B-
Illuminights Italy: Easily the best thing all day. The lights set the mood, the music helped, and the actual show was impressive. Great magical feel like Imaginique used to have. The costumes were a little cheap looking, but this is not Disney World, and these are free shows, so whatever. I'm not entirely sure why this wasn't staged in France, since it is a Cirque-style show. Made me miss Imaginique. Grade: B+
All that said, I have to note: if it hadn't been for the Illuminights shows, I think I would have been bored. They supplied all of the wonder/magic feeling of the day. There once was a time when they had these kinds of shows hardwired into the park. A legendary time called 8 years ago. O'Sullivan and Imaginique. Except those shows were 30 minutes, and better.
Also, those new shirts in Oktoberfest are whatever. They match the goofy new Oktoberfest motif. I'd give that whole thing a B-. It looks good for what it is...but it doesn't match the rest of the park and it doesn't make great use of the theming opportunities.
Shafor said:
Short question, long answer. I had a great time yesterday, actually. The heat was nearly unbearable, but it kept the crowds at bay (at least I think it was the heat!). I arrived around 1:30, and my primary objective was to see the Illuminights shows. I rode Pompeii, [the] Griffon, Darkastle and Apollo's Chariot. Nothing new there, although all of the talk on here about costumes and theming had me noticing things I normally probably wouldn't have thought about. I'll say that I honestly think Escape From Pompeii is the most well put-together attraction in the park. The set-up, the atmosphere, the costumes...I took note yesterday of just how complete that experience is. Anyway...
Uh, I'll say that the park had a bit of the old feel yesterday, but I'm 100% sure that that was because of Illuminights. The performances gave me something to do with my time, and, for the most part made good use of the hamlets. I went to Mix It Up and Celtic Fyre, as well. Let's see...grading based on the quality of the shows available vs. what I think the potential of a better, replacement show in the same space could be:
Mix It Up: Well executed, but weird. I was entertained by the show, yes, but I couldn't figure out who these chefs were...who they were supposed to be cooking for...why they knew how to play trumpets...who the waiters were...why they were there...and what any of this had to do with Italy. Grade: C+
Celtic Fyre: I've seen this before, and I still don't really like it. For what it's worth, my wife liked it better than the old shows (EB and IT). To me, it's convoluted and hard to follow, and not very Irish (or, at least, not very magical, which is the value of the hamlet). Part of the problem is not content, but the sound equipment, which muffles speech and makes the lyrics of the story songs hard to understand, which drags down the show. And I hate the American dance-off set up. Still, an improvement over the first time I saw it, so... Grade: C-
Illuminights Ireland: Cool use of magical imagery, good performance from the Leprechaun guy. Nice set up and cool puppets. The only thing I didn't like were the constant pop culture references and the fact that this leprechaun was taking advice from what appeared to be randomly selected puppets of a dog, a goat (?) and a chicken. It very much looked like they had just found a couple of puppets around and tried to use them in a show, rather than building dedicated puppets. He should have been getting advice from older Leprechauns. Oh well. Grade: B-
Illuminights France: Cool deal with the can-can girls and the acrobats, and the whistle guy. I thought it was lame that he was on a wire, because it makes it look less dangerous, but if I were up there, I'd want a wire, so its cool. Complaints: the set and stage and props and mens' costumes looked cheap. Those cardboard champagne bottles an didn't do the area any design favours either. Overall, though, enjoyable and French enough. Grade: B-
Illuminights Italy: Easily the best thing all day. The lights set the mood, the music helped, and the actual show was impressive. Great magical feel like Imaginique used to have. The costumes were a little cheap looking, but this is not Disney World, and these are free shows, so whatever. I'm not entirely sure why this wasn't staged in France, since it is a Cirque-style show. Made me miss Imaginique. Grade: B+
All that said, I have to note: if it hadn't been for the Illuminights shows, I think I would have been bored. They supplied all of the wonder/magic feeling of the day. There once was a time when they had these kinds of shows hardwired into the park. A legendary time called 8 years ago. O'Sullivan and Imaginique. Except those shows were 30 minutes, and better.
Also, those new shirts in Oktoberfest are whatever. They match the goofy new Oktoberfest motif. I'd give that whole thing a B-. It looks good for what it is...but it doesn't match the rest of the park and it doesn't make great use of the theming opportunities.
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
I always find it interesting what different people take away from a park experience. And what things they hold as more important than others in a park experience.
These parks really can't win in pleasing all of us can they? Many of the opinions that doctormoneymd holds are exactly opposite of myself and many of the folks I visit BG with. And some of them have been going since the 70's. And obviously many also share his views. I know "Show people" who rarely ride the "Big Iron" at BG and some of them think that Celtic Fyre is the best show they've had in a number of years. Others think like Doc and really don't think much of it. Nobody is wrong IMO, but it just illustrates to me how hard a job it is for a theme park to please as many people as they can.
I know thrill riders who have really grown weary of the number of thrills diminishing at the park the last 2 years. And have tired of the rate at which BG rolls out major new rides. 5 years is a long wait, especially when the park up the road has gotten a pretty impressive stream of new stuff since its ownership change several years ago. I think a lot of the thrill ride guys may be sitting this year out at BG and not renewing their passes until next season with the new coaster.
The thrill ride junkies, the show enthusiasts, the family experience... can you focus on one group without alientating the others? I don't know. I think the casual, once a season go-er wants a little of each, but I don't know where the money is. Like I said, it's a tuff job.
I always find it interesting what different people take away from a park experience. And what things they hold as more important than others in a park experience.
These parks really can't win in pleasing all of us can they? Many of the opinions that doctormoneymd holds are exactly opposite of myself and many of the folks I visit BG with. And some of them have been going since the 70's. And obviously many also share his views. I know "Show people" who rarely ride the "Big Iron" at BG and some of them think that Celtic Fyre is the best show they've had in a number of years. Others think like Doc and really don't think much of it. Nobody is wrong IMO, but it just illustrates to me how hard a job it is for a theme park to please as many people as they can.
I know thrill riders who have really grown weary of the number of thrills diminishing at the park the last 2 years. And have tired of the rate at which BG rolls out major new rides. 5 years is a long wait, especially when the park up the road has gotten a pretty impressive stream of new stuff since its ownership change several years ago. I think a lot of the thrill ride guys may be sitting this year out at BG and not renewing their passes until next season with the new coaster.
The thrill ride junkies, the show enthusiasts, the family experience... can you focus on one group without alientating the others? I don't know. I think the casual, once a season go-er wants a little of each, but I don't know where the money is. Like I said, it's a tuff job.
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Marketing 101 tells you to go after the family market. They're the ones that spend all the money. If it is even remotely possible to bend your market towards families, you should pretty much always do it, the thinking goes. That said, one good thing about BG is (was) their mix of things. There has always been something for everyone at Busch Gardens. My only thing is this:
Currently, the park has four big coasters (with a fifth on the way), a darkride, a drop tower (it's built, anyway), and three water rides. That's more than they've ever had, isn't it?
Meanwhile, in the show dept., they used to have EB/IT, O'Sullivan, Imaginique, Jukebox, and Starlight. Now they have Mix It Up and Celtic Fyre. Thy also replaced a cool motion-movie (Corkscrew Hill) with a lame one (EitA), and they're showing the same 4D movie they've been showing on and off for the last 10 years, and no one really likes it.
Pet Shenanigans, of course, doesn't count.
I'm for them building more thrill rides, for sure...but they have to balance the park. While we're on the subject, can we get a table service restaurant?
Marketing 101 tells you to go after the family market. They're the ones that spend all the money. If it is even remotely possible to bend your market towards families, you should pretty much always do it, the thinking goes. That said, one good thing about BG is (was) their mix of things. There has always been something for everyone at Busch Gardens. My only thing is this:
Currently, the park has four big coasters (with a fifth on the way), a darkride, a drop tower (it's built, anyway), and three water rides. That's more than they've ever had, isn't it?
Meanwhile, in the show dept., they used to have EB/IT, O'Sullivan, Imaginique, Jukebox, and Starlight. Now they have Mix It Up and Celtic Fyre. Thy also replaced a cool motion-movie (Corkscrew Hill) with a lame one (EitA), and they're showing the same 4D movie they've been showing on and off for the last 10 years, and no one really likes it.
Pet Shenanigans, of course, doesn't count.
I'm for them building more thrill rides, for sure...but they have to balance the park. While we're on the subject, can we get a table service restaurant?
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
As a Thrill ride guy I'll address this. They used to have five coasters and coasters trump all in Thrill Riders minds. None of those other rides "Count." So, much like pet shenanigans or animal demonstrations do not count for show guys, even though it technically is a show, Mach Tower and water rides, as nice as they may be, still do not count, even though it technically is a thrill ride. So they have 20% less than 2 years ago. So they have managed to annoy both groups over the last few years. Personally, I LOVE a good drop tower and most are as good for a thrill as nearly any coaster. But I think that is a minority view in the coaster enthusiast community.
And also, as much yang as gets talked about EitA on this board, I have to tell you I know of probably 4 families that are only once every few years attendees and they all LOVED EitA. Mainly because it (Thier words) "Reminded us of a Disney ride." To enthusiasts this is naturally basphemy, but it takes much less to leave an impression on the general public than enthusiasts.
doctormoneymd said:
As a Thrill ride guy I'll address this. They used to have five coasters and coasters trump all in Thrill Riders minds. None of those other rides "Count." So, much like pet shenanigans or animal demonstrations do not count for show guys, even though it technically is a show, Mach Tower and water rides, as nice as they may be, still do not count, even though it technically is a thrill ride. So they have 20% less than 2 years ago. So they have managed to annoy both groups over the last few years. Personally, I LOVE a good drop tower and most are as good for a thrill as nearly any coaster. But I think that is a minority view in the coaster enthusiast community.
And also, as much yang as gets talked about EitA on this board, I have to tell you I know of probably 4 families that are only once every few years attendees and they all LOVED EitA. Mainly because it (Thier words) "Reminded us of a Disney ride." To enthusiasts this is naturally basphemy, but it takes much less to leave an impression on the general public than enthusiasts.
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
They only had five for like three seasons. It was four for the longest time before that. Now it's back down. Not that that makes it any better...I'm just saying, 5 was practically just a temporary hike!
Like you said, I guess it's who you ask. I have some family friends who are once-in-a-while types, and none of them like EitA. They liked Corkscrew Hill, though.
I think your post and mine combined serve to point out an important point: people from all groups feel they're getting gypped.
And where's the table service restaurant?
Big_Al said:
They only had five for like three seasons. It was four for the longest time before that. Now it's back down. Not that that makes it any better...I'm just saying, 5 was practically just a temporary hike!
Like you said, I guess it's who you ask. I have some family friends who are once-in-a-while types, and none of them like EitA. They liked Corkscrew Hill, though.
I think your post and mine combined serve to point out an important point: people from all groups feel they're getting gypped.
And where's the table service restaurant?
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Yeah, this is one thing I've been thinking a lot about with this topic. I think some of the criticism of the shows really come from people that aren't going to the park with kids (just my assumption, I have no idea who actually visits with kids or not)
Believe me, Celtic Fyre and Mix It Up are way more popular with kids, and by extension families, than the shows they replaced (Emerald Beat and Festival Italiano). CF and MIU are incredibly popular and buzzed about. I think it's misguided to somehow suggest that attendance is suffering due to the "quality" of these shows. The same goes for the changes in This is Oktoberfest. Many adults I know hate the changes, but the show is much more kid-friendly (family friendly) that is was in the past. My kids could have cared less about it in the past, now they ask to go see it.
Now the reduction in the actual number of shows, may indeed be a factor.
Also, back to the main topic: the attendance figures stated show a decline for 2009 to 2010, correct? Is it possible that 2009 was just artificially inflated with people coming to check out FOF and to ride the BBW one more time (also, are CT #'s included I wonder)?
doctormoneymd said:
Yeah, this is one thing I've been thinking a lot about with this topic. I think some of the criticism of the shows really come from people that aren't going to the park with kids (just my assumption, I have no idea who actually visits with kids or not)
Believe me, Celtic Fyre and Mix It Up are way more popular with kids, and by extension families, than the shows they replaced (Emerald Beat and Festival Italiano). CF and MIU are incredibly popular and buzzed about. I think it's misguided to somehow suggest that attendance is suffering due to the "quality" of these shows. The same goes for the changes in This is Oktoberfest. Many adults I know hate the changes, but the show is much more kid-friendly (family friendly) that is was in the past. My kids could have cared less about it in the past, now they ask to go see it.
Now the reduction in the actual number of shows, may indeed be a factor.
Also, back to the main topic: the attendance figures stated show a decline for 2009 to 2010, correct? Is it possible that 2009 was just artificially inflated with people coming to check out FOF and to ride the BBW one more time (also, are CT #'s included I wonder)?
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
A good show can entertain kids... And adults. I think it's rather dumb to grab one market and stick the middle finger up to one market. A good show can grab attention of all audiences. Imaginique anyone? By "dumbing" down their shows, rather than doing the slightly more difficult thing to do (You know, creating a well balanced show?) They have effectively killed my attendance to these shows and to the park.
Same problems they have with Howl-o-Scream, They now have with their shows. They cant balance, they either go one way or the other. And some things just shouldnt be "balanced" for all audiences...
A good show can entertain kids... And adults. I think it's rather dumb to grab one market and stick the middle finger up to one market. A good show can grab attention of all audiences. Imaginique anyone? By "dumbing" down their shows, rather than doing the slightly more difficult thing to do (You know, creating a well balanced show?) They have effectively killed my attendance to these shows and to the park.
Same problems they have with Howl-o-Scream, They now have with their shows. They cant balance, they either go one way or the other. And some things just shouldnt be "balanced" for all audiences...
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
Why would Celtic Fyre be more popular with kids than the old shows? They're just song/dance shows...at least the older ones were visually interesting. And if it's kids were trying to entertain, what happened to Castle O'Sullivan, Imaginique and Corkscrew Hill? Why replace kid friendly shows with less kid-friendly ones, or in some cases, with absolutely nothing at all?
Shafor said:
Why would Celtic Fyre be more popular with kids than the old shows? They're just song/dance shows...at least the older ones were visually interesting. And if it's kids were trying to entertain, what happened to Castle O'Sullivan, Imaginique and Corkscrew Hill? Why replace kid friendly shows with less kid-friendly ones, or in some cases, with absolutely nothing at all?
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
I don't have kids, but I prefer Celtic Fyre to Emerald Beat.
Also about the figures, you're right Shafor. It looks like 2009 was a higher year as 2008 and 2010 were both lower. 2009 also was the 25th anniversary of BBW and the first Christmas Town. I would think CT would be what inflated the numbers, but they also had that last year...
I don't have kids, but I prefer Celtic Fyre to Emerald Beat.
Also about the figures, you're right Shafor. It looks like 2009 was a higher year as 2008 and 2010 were both lower. 2009 also was the 25th anniversary of BBW and the first Christmas Town. I would think CT would be what inflated the numbers, but they also had that last year...
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%
I'm sure the closing of BBW had a lot to do with attendance that year. The park was insanely crowded leading up to it.
pandorazboxx said:
I'm sure the closing of BBW had a lot to do with attendance that year. The park was insanely crowded leading up to it.