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RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

Has anybody heard about KD's numbers this year? I was at Busch Gardens last week and if I wasn't getting the free admission, I couldn't afford to take my family there. We would have gone to KD instead just because I can afford to get in there.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

I dont have kids. I can easily see how the new shows entertain kids more.... But at what cost are they doing so? I dont want to see busch become sesame place or something like that...

I dont have kids. I can easily see how the new shows entertain kids more.... But at what cost are they doing so? I dont want to see busch become sesame place or something like that...
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

My point about the "decline in the quality of shows = lower attendance" argument is only that MIX and CF are incredibly popular shows vs the shows they replaced. On busy days those shows are near capacity. So while some people in this thread may think they suck, I can tell you based on attendance and buzz that that is a vast minority opinion.

To flip this a little, take the CT show Rejoice. I don't think anyone would consider that a "kid's" show. My wife and I can't stand it. My kids, however, love it (so I'm stuck watching it a lot). It is also wildly popular with the GP. So while I personally don't like the show, I can see and hear the positive public response to it and appreciate that I am in the vast minority in my opinion.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

Shafor said:
My point about the "decline in the quality of shows = lower attendance" argument is only that MIX and CF are incredibly popular shows vs the shows they replaced. On busy days those shows are near capacity. So while some people in this thread may think they suck, I can tell you based on attendance and buzz that that is a vast minority opinion.

This is going to be a bit long:

Not to sound like a jerk, but that's an unqualified assessment. You're saying that your subjective experience indicates a universal truth. Here's a subjective example: The two times (a small sample, I know) I've seen Celtic Fyre, the theater has been half empty. True story. On the other hand, I never, honest-to-God never, sat in a theater for EB/IT where I wasn't encouraged to 'move to the center of the theater' to allow the packed house a place to sit. Nearly all of these visits have been weekdays, as I almost refuse to go on weekends. My point is not that you're wrong about the quality of the shows, just that you're wrong to say "well I've heard the buzz, and trust me, this show doesn't suck."

Now, on your personal assessment: Mix It Up is a decent show. I don't personally like it in the space that it's in, and I think that it detracts from theming, which hurts the park overall in the long-run, but I agree with your view that it is likely better for the family w/ kids than the show it replaced AS IS. As far as Celtic Fyre, on the other hand, I disagree. The show is less interesting than the old show...there're no pretty lights or colorful costumes. No strange settings. It's just some people in some ratty old clothes singing unintelligible songs about Ireland. I do not think that kids would prefer this show to the old one, and I do not believe that I am in the minority with this view. There is a bird act that kids would like, for sure, but the rest of it?

I have no problem admitting that I'm in the minority on some things...but I don't try and push those kinds of changes when I see them. I really don't care for the big, crazy roller coasters, but I understand that they attract a huge audience and wouldn't rally against them. I also understand, however, that good content producers do not depend on audience pools or buzz, because it is very difficult to get a realistic picture of what the audience likes. Look at it this way: the average person can tell you what movies they like, but given the same budget and personnel, would be unable to write/produce a movie they would, themselves, enjoy. This is why you don't "listen to the audience" when coming up with content: their job is to enjoy the content, your job is to produce content they'll enjoy. That said, the best producers aren't the ones who make shows the audience tells them they will like, they are the people who can predict audience responses and craft shows that pleasantly surprise people. In my opinion, on that front, Celtic Fyre is a poor show, because it is not in any way surprising or eyebrow raising; it is, in fact, completely mundane and routine. In my view, the older shows were better productions in every sense of the word, and because I don't have accurate polling data (and even if you had park polling on this issue, I wouldn't trust it, because while some people indeed MUST like it better, pollsters tend to ask people who give them visual clues that they are going to be providing a favorable review), I have to go with my own assessment of the quality of the show and opinions on what people will like. If I were the one producing the content, and it were my job/money/contract on the line, I'd produce shows that were more in line with EB than with CF, because I think audiences would prefer them.

I reject completely that I am in any thing close to a "vast minority" in that view. And, given the fact that attendance was down last year, and some indicators say that it's down again this year, maybe I'm not wrong.
 
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RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

doctormoneymd said:
Shafor said:
Not to sound like a jerk, but that's an unqualified assessment. You're saying that your subjective experience indicates a universal truth.

Not to sound like a jerk, but I've been at the park about 60-70% of the days that it has been open the past three years (80-100 trips each). I'd say my experience is anything but subjective.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

I've always seen CF full and have been asked to scoot over. I think it just depends on the person whether or not you like the show. (I like it a lot) But for the GP, I'd say it is a success.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

You see, I really don't like Mix it Up, but I enjoy Celtic Fyre- maybe even more than Emerald Beat. Mix it Up destroyed the look and feel of Ristorante della Piazza. It looks like they put up some plywood and painted everything purple. It looks cheap and sloppy. Celtic Fyre on the other hand has a great set and feels like it belongs where it is.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

Swiftman said:
You see, I really don't like Mix it Up, but I enjoy Celtic Fyre- maybe even more than Emerald Beat. Mix it Up destroyed the look and feel of Ristorante della Piazza. It looks like they put up some plywood and painted everything purple. It looks cheap and sloppy. Celtic Fyre on the other hand has a great set and feels like it belongs where it is.

Dude, that's pretty subjective. :p
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

Shafor,

Like I said, my experience with CF has been two random days and two half-empty theaters. Now, of course, I realize that that probably had little to do with the content of the show. Most people in a given audience will have never seen the show, and so without seeing it, wouldn't have an opinion either way. In either case, most shows are a good excuse to get out of the heat. That wasn't the point I was making about the empty theaters, anyway. The point I was making was that believing something subjectively is not the same as knowing something objectively, so I was simply rejecting your assertions that "CF is better and I know it." You don't know that the vast majority of people coming to Busch Gardens are in love with Celtic Fyre. And you don't know that they like it any better than the shows that were previously there. Those shows were running back when I went 8-10 times a year and they were always packed. The "buzz" you hear likely reflects exactly what you want to hear. Same for everyone else. I loved Imaginique, and thought everyone else did to. I hated Kinetix, and guess what I thought other people thought of it.

I'm not surprised to see that people like CF...some even better than EB/IT. If you look at my show review, I didn't give it an F- or anything. It's whatever. My point in this discussion about falling attendance rates is, like I said before, that the quality and quantity of shows declining is contributing to the overall attendance issues. I believe, and would be willing to make a professional decision reflecting this belief, if I had to, that Celtic Fyre is not nearly as enjoyable as a different show in it's place could be, and that if I were responsible for the content of the shows, I'd replace that thing with a show that was more in line with Emerald Beat. Do I know that this would be a positive change? Of course not. But I think it would be, just like you think it would not be. Neither of us should make such statements as "xxxposter is saying that people wouldn't like xxxshow, but TRUST ME, he's wrong, and I KNOW it." That's not only impossible to prove, it's also stifling for discussion.

We're all just talking about what we think would make the place better. Now, what would I like to see in the Abbey Stone? Strippers. But I doubt that's going to happen. I'll just have to settle for some of the better elements of Monster Stomp Revamped, I suppose.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

I never said "CF is better and I know it." I said it's more popular than it's immediate predecessors. Obviously I don't KNOW that, but given a sample of dozens and dozens of viewings of every show over multiple seasons, I would say I have a pretty informed opinion.

I mean, think about your logic: "Hey guys, so we replaced the shows in Abbeystone and San Marco with two new shows. How's it going?" "Well, most of the performances are packed and we're getting tremendously positive feedback." "Hmmm, I don't know, I think the quality is really down and even though people are watching them, they're not really enjoying them." "I concur, these shows are a problem."

Like I said, I hate that stupid Rejoice show at CT. I think it's boring and weird. I just don't get it. But it is INCREDIBLY popular. So is it reasonable for me to draw some kind of conclusion that they are just off base on this show and even though it's really, really popular, because I personally don't like it that means the park is suffering because of it?

Now, maybe the lack of # of overall shows plays a part in people not frequenting the park as often as they did causing a slack in attendance, but to say that the "quality" has diminished of the shows that they do have is just not reflected in the popularity of those individual shows. There is no objective evidence to support your point. You just don't like those shows. Which is fine. But that's subjective.

I guess to summarize: Your point is that the park added two incredibly popular shows that are causing attendance to suffer.

On a side note re: attendance, holy cow is the park dead in this heat. I mean, I was there Thurs, Sun, and today (Tues) and it was like a ghost town all three days. It doesn't help that the 100+ degree days have been followed by earth-shaking thunderstorms near the end of the night either.

That MT needs to open ASAP. They've got to have something to create some buzz to bring people in.

pandorazboxx said:
past few years:
Year: Attendance +/- yearly change

2006: 2,806,222
2007: 3,157,000 +12.5%
2008: 2,796,528 -11.4%
2009: 2,900,000 +3.4% (FYI almost everyone else this year lost attendance)
2010: 2,800,000 -3.4%

I think we're all over thinking this (see above).

2007 - Griffon
2008- nothing major
2009- FOF, BBW closing, CT
2010 - nothing major
2011 - probably down, nothing major (thanks MT)
2012 - probably way up, new coaster
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

All I'll say is this: the theaters only seat x number of people, and run x times a day. All we can say definitively about the new shows is that they are popular enough to fill the the theaters, which (don't get me wrong) cannot be seen as a bad thing. However, in this sense, we're only dealing with what is seen, and ignoring what is not seen. What this means is this: while I'll concede that a person who spends as much time at the park as you can make a fairly objective guess as to the popularity of the current shows with the audience that is present, no amount of on-site observation can tell you the opinions of the people who are not there, which, after all, is what we're talking about. I think that the general perception that the quality of shows has dropped has negatively affected peoples' impression of the park, and that declining attendance begins with negative perceptions. If I had to list the causes for park attendance dropping, I'd list them like this, high-to-low:

1 - The economy is not great.
2 - The perception is that the park is too crowded (I know this has kept me out before).
3 - The perception that the quality of park detail (including shows) is declining.
4 - There are no new attractions.
5 - It's extremely hot.

I list "attractions" lower only because I don't think a casual visitor knows that MT isn't working until he shows up to the park. For all he knows MT is a new, operational ride. So he has to attend the park to find out it doesn't work. This may affect repeat visits, but I think first visits are somewhat insulated from this effect.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

Honestly, by what I'm seeing, number 3 should be number 1. I've heard from an absurd number of people who aren't going to the park just because they're hearing that the quality of the park isn't what it used to be. I've heard this from friends, family, the lady who cuts my hair, old friends who visited from South Carolina, etc. The public image of the park is in freefall, I hope they have a plan.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

I don't think the problem is in the quality of the shows as much as it's in the lack of shows. I enjoy the shows that are there, but there used to be so many more. It's a major issue for me considering that the shows are my family's biggest draw to the park, along with the overall quality and presentation of the park (gardens, beautiful settings, etc.). We are much more into shows and family rides/attractions than we are into thrill rides. We ride the coasters once, but we visit the shows and family rides (such as water rides, simulators, etc.) many times during a multi-day visit. With significantly fewer shows over the past few years, there park is declining in that regard.

I have a theory about this. The first year that there was a substantial cut in entertainment was also the first year of Christmas Town. During that year, the park made a statement somewhere (I read it in some interview or article) about the perceived cuts to entertainment, and they spun it along the lines that there was actually more money/effort going toward entertainment that year, and they pointed out the new shows for Christmas Town. Could it be that the entertainment during Christmas Town is coming at the expense of entertainment during the regular season? Do they really think that IllumiNights is a solid replacement for the shows that have been lost? (it's not by the way).

I wonder if the park planned the expanded entertainment during Christmas knowing they would have to cut back during the summer to make it financially feasible. I think it's a huge mistake, especially for out of state vacationers like myself who used to love the shows during my summer vacation visits and who can't really visit during Christmas.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

Swiftman said:
Honestly, by what I'm seeing, number 3 should be number 1. I've heard from an absurd number of people who aren't going to the park just because they're hearing that the quality of the park isn't what it used to be. I've heard this from friends, family, the lady who cuts my hair, old friends who visited from South Carolina, etc. The public image of the park is in freefall, I hope they have a plan.

This is completely the opposite from what i'm hearing. Many people I have spoken with say they like BG and often try to compare to Kings Dominion, but often say the KD sucks. KD may have more rides and coasters, but the atmosphere is just not there. I don't really consider a 3.4% drop to be significant. If you look at the numbers over the past five years, attendance has been flat. My experience is the shows are good, the crowds do react positively to all of them. As a pass holder and re-occurring visitor, I often see some of the same faces at CF and MIU. I, too would like to see more shows, and I think that Illuminghts does fill that viod somewhat, but I don't really want to see anything like Kinetix or Imaginique, because I really didn't care for either one. (I'm not a big fan of any of the Cirque type shows, unless it's the Beatles:Love.) I think the music can make or break a show. I'm glad to see BG making adjustments to the current shows so that they don't become stale. It gives more of a reason to visit more often.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

What do others think about the attendance this year based on crowds. I visited over several days last week (Sun. Aug. 7-Thurs. Aug. 11), and the park was less busy then I've ever seen it before, and I've been visiting almost annually since 1991.

We had beautiful weather, and the crowds were minimal. We used to have a long wait at the parking gates and at the ticket takers. We used to have 30-60 minute waits for major rides like Roman Rapids, DarKastle, Europe In the Air, Le Scoot, and the coasters. Now they were all very short waits or even walk ons. There was no rain. The temperature was hot but not unbearable (low 90's and humid). I've been there when it's over 100 in the past, so this was nice.

I spoke to an older woman at the snack shop in France. She commented on what a nice day it was without the crowds. I asked if it had been like this all season, and she said yes. I said it's good for me, but it must not be good for her job. She joked that it made her job easier, but it must not be good for Busch (meaning the company overall, I guess).

On Thursday, our last day, crowds were larger. the temperature that day was in the mid 80's if that matters. It was more comfortable, but all of our days were typical of summer in coastal Virginia. The larger crowds were actually nice. It gave the park a lively feeling that had been missing until then. The lines were still not much bigger however, just a little, but nothing to complain about.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

I'm pretty certain attendance is down this year vs 2010. It was just moderately crowded all season. Nice for us, bad for the park I guess...
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

I've been doing almost weekly trips this summer and I've noticed much lighter crowds than I've seen during past seasons- including last year. Like I said before, I'm hearing some pretty bad things from inside of the park regarding their attendance and overall profit so far this year. Hopefully Howl-O-Scream will help out a little.
 
RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

But WHY? Why is attendance down? I'm revising my previous list, and summing up the problem with one of those questions that answers itself by the fact that it has to be asked:

How has the park improved over the last three years?

Anyone?

Look, the economy has been poor since '08...so it's not likely that. The weather was moderate...so it probably wasn't that. Big Bad Wolf was down...but I doubt anybody actually sat home because BBW wasn't running. I said before that I've stayed out a few times in the past because of my perception that the park would be busy...but if it's been dead all year, you'd think that fear would have been suppressed towards the end of the summer, at least. Mach Tower wasn't on schedule, sure...but I don't think the idea of a new drop tower was really going to set the world ablaze, anyway.

I feel like it's just that there's not as much to do as there used to be at the park. They had a big strikeout, imo, with EitA...there's no evening show (Illuminites was cool, yes...but it's a little difficult to navigate, especially if you're not a BG nerd). O'Sullivan was removed with no replacement. Corkscrew Hill was replaced with something that kind of bombed. Celtic Fyre is...well, let's not touch that. There's nothing in the RPT. They're still showing the SAME. BORING. PIRATES. MOVIE. in the Globe, which was fine when there were more alternatives, but now that the stuff is thinning out, every little attraction counts. There's not a single musical revue in the park (I hate them, but people...especially old people...seemed to like them). The new "big" ride is a drop tower...a drop tower that is shorter and, aside from a few forgettable bells and whistles, is less impressive than the one built years ago just a few miles North.

When you look at the question, and then look at that summary, I think you have your answer.
 
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RE: BGW Attendance Drops 3.4%

DoctorMoneyMD said:
Big Bad Wolf was down...but I doubt anybody actually sat home because BBW wasn't running.

I'm not saying it's a big number, but Coaster enthusiasts, myself included, can be a pretty petty bunch about stuff like ride removal. I know of quite a few coaster geeks who are refusing to go until they get something in to replace BBW. They feel the park is less of a value with less big iron. Again, probably not a huge number, but combine that number with all the other small things that have alienated people over the last few years and it adds up.

Nearly every time BG puts a rah-rah post up on Facebook to promote the park, there are a few snarky remarks by people still pissed about the Wolf.

The last few weeks have been weird at BG. I have friends that go often and it seems they are saying that weekdays the last 2 weeks have been more crowded than in years past this time of year. I've been a few Saturdays where it has been super packed, like most saturdays in years past, but early in the season, the weekdays seemed by most accounts, to be less crowded.
 
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