Accessibility Accomodations Abuse

[MrBradferd]

Yet, you’ve said:

And:


On another note @warfelg


Not unpopular - In fact, I think you basically have it spot on. Virtual queue systems still need a ton of work in an amusement park setting, but I don’t think it will be too much longer before it becomes more common in the industry.

I also think the parks would see significantly more in park spending if guests spent more time in the pathways too.

Yes, standing for prolonged periods of times sucks. Anyone able to stand for 1.5hrs straight on concrete without foot pain should pass along the shoe recommendations lol.

Ok I ment if you have a disability of somekind and get get it legit that way then use it. Why would any mentaly sane person try and walkup to the ADA counter and try and just get 1. No that is not at all remotly what I mean. I have more morals than that lol

 

[DE_Creative]

If someone has been able to get an ADA then they should be able to use it without your cringelord ass belittling them. KD is one of the few that make you acrually show why you need it vs just telling them. Why do you hate the handicap? They didn't tear down your precious Ka

Kings Dominions method should be the bare minimum standard at every park worldwide. I’m all for ADA because most people who need it have life harder than the rest of us in most situations, but I lose sympathy really damn fast when people are using ADHD and general anxiety to skip lines we all know they are perfectly capable of waiting in.

And even then, it should be a “you have to wait less and not in the physical line” pass and not a “skip to front row of every ride” pass. Again, I’m all for ADA passes, but I firmly believe that they should widely adopt the method cedar point uses for exit passes on some rides (like millennium force, where they only give the front row for every 3rd train to this system) and make them wait longer if they want the premium seats. Nothing grinds my gears more than being in line for the front/back and having to wait multiple additional trains because disability passes take every single one.

So I understand where northdetective is coming from

 

[RollyCoaster]

Why would any mentaly sane person try and walkup to the ADA counter and try and just get 1.

Glad we can agree on something. Unfortunately, this is a significantly bigger problem than I think you and some others realize.

 

[MrBradferd]

Kings Dominions method should be the bare minimum standard at every park worldwide. I’m all for ADA because most people who need it have life harder than the rest of us in most situations, but I lose sympathy really damn fast when people are using ADHD and general anxiety to skip lines we all know they are perfectly capable of waiting in.

And even then, it should be a “you have to wait less and not in the physical line” pass and not a “skip to front row of every ride” pass. Again, I’m all for ADA passes, but I firmly believe that they should wildest adopt the method cedar point uses for exit passes on some rides (like millennium force, where they only give the front row for every 3rd train to this system) and make them wait longer if they want the premium seats. Nothing grinds my gears more than being in line for the front/back and having to wait multiple additional trains because disability passes take every single one.

So I understand where northdetective is coming from

Agree with this fully. KD system is great. Im suprised its not brought over to the more busy and abusable parks like KI. It needs to be stricter

 

[MrBradferd]

Glad we can agree on something. Unfortunately, this is a significantly bigger problem than I think you and some others realize.

I think we do agree its just either I or you have taken eachother stuff way out of context and its taken and mile to get to here lol

 

[CarolinaDog]

I don't understand how people can live with themselves abusing ADA. It can feel humiliating having to delay boarding and take another guest's seat they just spent several minutes if not hours waiting in the standby queue for.

There are a lot of drawbacks to the system if you require wheels. Some attractions are incredibly hard to access (Pantherian, Rapterra) due to the pathway only being wide enough for a chair and maybe a person. Elevators will break, cutting off access to attractions completely. I actually got stuck in Grizzly's hot elevator for a good while and was not able to ride. Sometimes ride ops have no idea how the system paperwork works, causing delays for everyone. Row requests can be completely out of the question for many rides that would otherwise allow regular guests to choose.

I may be naive here, but is abuse really that common? I thought Six Flags required an IBCCES card in order to participate in the ADA program. I fear that cracking down on ADA usage may have a chilling effect.

 

[Zachary]

I dont see how this virtual queue would work unless all guests have to scan their phone to get on every ride. E.g. if a guest virtually queued for Pantheon based on a geo fence, I dont see how you could prevent them from going to ride the Tea Cups in the interim unless you scan every guest in the standby line, which would slow operations precipitously.

It doesn't have to be phone-based. It can just use park ticket/pass barcodes like the old Disney FastPass system. Scan your admission media at a little kiosk at the entrance to the ride, it tells you when to come back, and then you have to scan that same admission media to enter virtual queue entrance when your time comes up.

This is probably all outside the realm of this thread though. There are likely rich discussions to be had about both improving the queuing experience for standby guests and, separately, for aspirational approaches for replacing in-person, traditional queuing in parks entirely. Anyone who wants to dive down those paths, feel free to make dedicated threads for them.

 

[RollyCoaster]

Kings Dominions method should be the bare minimum standard at every park worldwide. I’m all for ADA because most people who need it have life harder than the rest of us in most situations, but I lose sympathy really damn fast when people are using ADHD and general anxiety to skip lines we all know they are perfectly capable of waiting in.

The bare minimum standard that you think parks should use, sucks.

Just to sort of paint a picture of how easy the RAP system is to abuse, I decided to make an account and see how difficult it would actually be to get a card. I’ve never made an account before until today.

IBCCES Accessibility Card

IBCCES created the Accessibility Card (IAC) as a free resource for individuals who need to request accommodations or assistance at amusement parks and attractions.

www.accessibilitycard.org

This is the exact website Kings Dominion and many other parks in the country require you to use.

In about 5 minutes, I was able to get a card that is valid for 12 months. What did I provide? A literal anxiety diagnosis from years ago, and my reason for being unable to wait in a traditional queue was “frequent use of the bathroom.”

Those two things are completely unrelated. And, for the record, the bathroom issue isn’t even a real issue. I made it up.

Despite that, I already received a verification email saying my card is good to go.




This is the problem.

I’m not saying everyone who uses RAP is abusing it. There are absolutely people who genuinely need accommodations, and those people should have access to them.

But if I can make up a reason, submit an unrelated diagnosis, and have a valid card in roughly five minutes without anyone actually verifying whether the claimed issue exists, the system is clearly incredibly easy to exploit.

And ultimately, that hurts the people who actually need these accommodations.

No, I won’t be using this card, and I absolutely do not recommend anyone else abuse the system. I just wanted to actually test the process and show everyone how easy it is. People do this All. The. Time. And it’s so frustrating.

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

I guess they updated the system. When I renewed mine a few weeks ago, they needed a doctor’s note that was manually reviewed by a human.

 

[northdetective]

Not only does abuse of the system make access for people with disabilities harder by inflating the number of users, it also, in my opinion, is the direct cause of any perceived hostility toward people with invisible disabilities who do need to use the system.

The bare minimum standard that you think parks should use, sucks.

Just to sort of paint a picture of how easy the RAP system is to abuse, I decided to make an account and see how difficult it would actually be to get a card. I’ve never made an account before until today.

IBCCES Accessibility Card

IBCCES created the Accessibility Card (IAC) as a free resource for individuals who need to request accommodations or assistance at amusement parks and attractions.

www.accessibilitycard.org

This is the exact website Kings Dominion and many other parks in the country require you to use.

In about 5 minutes, I was able to get a card that is valid for 12 months. What did I provide? A literal anxiety diagnosis from years ago, and my reason for being unable to wait in a traditional queue was “frequent use of the bathroom.”

Those two things are completely unrelated. And, for the record, the bathroom issue isn’t even a real issue. I made it up.

Despite that, I already received a verification email saying my card is good to go.

View attachment 44877
View attachment 44878

This is the problem.

I’m not saying everyone who uses RAP is abusing it. There are absolutely people who genuinely need accommodations, and those people should have access to them.

But if I can make up a reason, submit an unrelated diagnosis, and have a valid card in roughly five minutes without anyone actually verifying whether the claimed issue exists, the system is clearly incredibly easy to exploit.

And ultimately, that hurts the people who actually need these accommodations.

No, I won’t be using this card, and I absolutely do not recommend anyone else abuse the system. I just wanted to actually test the process and show everyone how easy it is. People do this All. The. Time. And it’s so frustrating.

and yet any reforms to systems like these are loudly shouted down

 

[CoasterBroCam]

The bare minimum standard that you think parks should use, sucks.

Just to sort of paint a picture of how easy the RAP system is to abuse, I decided to make an account and see how difficult it would actually be to get a card. I’ve never made an account before until today.

IBCCES Accessibility Card

IBCCES created the Accessibility Card (IAC) as a free resource for individuals who need to request accommodations or assistance at amusement parks and attractions.

www.accessibilitycard.org

This is the exact website Kings Dominion and many other parks in the country require you to use.

In about 5 minutes, I was able to get a card that is valid for 12 months. What did I provide? A literal anxiety diagnosis from years ago, and my reason for being unable to wait in a traditional queue was “frequent use of the bathroom.”

Those two things are completely unrelated. And, for the record, the bathroom issue isn’t even a real issue. I made it up.

Despite that, I already received a verification email saying my card is good to go.

View attachment 44877
View attachment 44878

This is the problem.

I’m not saying everyone who uses RAP is abusing it. There are absolutely people who genuinely need accommodations, and those people should have access to them.

But if I can make up a reason, submit an unrelated diagnosis, and have a valid card in roughly five minutes without anyone actually verifying whether the claimed issue exists, the system is clearly incredibly easy to exploit.

And ultimately, that hurts the people who actually need these accommodations.

No, I won’t be using this card, and I absolutely do not recommend anyone else abuse the system. I just wanted to actually test the process and show everyone how easy it is. People do this All. The. Time. And it’s so frustrating.

That’s very fair. The ppl who abuse it annoy me, especially as someone who actually needs it. They should crack down on this.

 

[rswashdc]

I guess they updated the system. When I renewed mine a few weeks ago, they needed a doctor’s note that was manually reviewed by a human.

When I got the card it took a week or so, so I assume a human reviewed for suitability. If it's just auto approving based on nothing or poor AI, that defeats the purpose of such a tool.

 

[RollyCoaster]

I believe there may be a second wave of approval that still needs to come through for the card to remain active, which I’m actually curious to see. I’ll provide an update when that comes through.

Again, I submitted a bunch of absolute bologna just to see if the system would even process it. If a human sees an anxiety diagnosis (Which doesn’t really affect me waiting in a line for a roller coaster) and approves it when my reasoning for not being able to wait in line is based on completely made-up bathroom habits, there’s an issue.

But here’s the crazy part:

If Kings Dominion were open today, I could go right now and use the card that was provided to me to access the RAP program.

There is also seemingly nothing stopping me from creating multiple accounts whenever I want to get same-day access.

I just tested it. You would think the system could flag something as simple as a matching first name, last name, phone number, or literally anything and say, “Hey, you already have an account. You can’t create a new one.”

Nope. All I needed was a different email address.

Again, I am not recommending anyone do this, and I am not going to use these cards. I’m testing the process specifically to demonstrate how easy the system is to exploit.

There are people who genuinely need these accommodations, and the fact that the system can apparently be manipulated this easily is ultimately unfair to them.

 

[warfelg]

Wasn’t there a time that the only way you could access this was your doctor doing it for you?

 

[Zachary]

Again, I submitted a bunch of absolute bologna just to see if the system would even process it.

What did it ask you for? Were you asked for a doctor's note? What did you submit for it? Do you know it can be used immediately? What does the card status say?

 

[RollyCoaster]

It just asks for documentation that supports my claim. So I submitted an anxiety diagnosis a therapist gave me over 3 years ago. (I also have an official diagnosis, not that it matters for the topic, but I intentionally chose the less “legit” documentation to submit.)

However, I didn’t even use that as my reasoning for being unable to wait in line. I selected the option stating that I have bathroom issues, which is circled in the top right of one of the screenshots above.

That isn’t actually an issue I have. I selected it specifically to see whether the system would question the fact that the documentation I provided had nothing to do with the accommodation I was requesting.

It didn’t.

Edit:
@Zachary I see you added more to your post. I was given a temporary card that can be used today.

 

[Zachary]

It just asks for documentation that supports my claim. So I submitted an anxiety diagnosis a therapist gave me over 3 years ago. (I also have an official diagnosis, not that it matters for the topic, but I intentionally chose the less “legit” documentation to submit.)

However, I didn’t even use that as my reasoning for being unable to wait in line. I selected the option stating that I have bathroom issues, which is circled in the top right of one of the screenshots above.

That isn’t actually an issue I have. I selected it specifically to see whether the system would question the fact that the documentation I provided had nothing to do with the accommodation I was requesting.

It didn’t.

And is there something that expressly says the card can be used immediately now? Does it list a current status like "Pending" or anything?

If the system automatically grants access immediately and then sends things through a second, actually substantive round of review at some uncertain, future time (where I would hope your case would eventually be flagged and rejected), I do think that's a problem. Creates a system that, as you highlight, is ripe for abuse. Just trying to suss out whether or not it is being reviewed further and whether or not it is fully usable right now (prior to that review).

Edit: Saw your edit. Got it. Yeah, that's not great. I think human review should be a precursor to access.

 

[RollyCoaster]

@Zachary Sorry our posts are kind of out of order but I think this answers your question.

Edit:
@Zachary I see you added more to your post. I was given a temporary card that can be used today.

Am happy to report back once it’s actually verified or rejected. But yes, the temporary card does work *today*.

 

[Zachary]

And is there something that expressly says the card can be used immediately now? Does it list a current status like "Pending" or anything?

If the system automatically grants access immediately and then sends things through a second, actually substantive round of review at some uncertain, future time (where I would hope your case would eventually be flagged and rejected), I do think that's a problem. Creates a system that, as you highlight, is ripe for abuse. Just trying to suss out whether or not it is being reviewed further and whether or not it is fully usable right now (prior to that review).

Edit: Saw your edit. Got it. Yeah, that's not great. I think human review should be a precursor to access.

And to provide the counterpoint to my own criticism, I also understand why parks want/need a system that can provide instant answers. 95% of people who need accommodations are very unlikely to do anything ahead of time to request them (and hence, initiate the potentially multi-day process that would be needed for a proper remote review system). Such guests show up at a park with a single day ticket and expect to be able to setup the needed accommodations on-site. (And to be clear, I do think that is a reasonable expectation—if a park is selling day-of tickets, they should be able to accommodate folks with disabilities day-of.)

Maybe there's some compromise position here where parks could link a pass member/guest's ticket product to the accessibility card status? They could allow access to the program during the temporary period, but access immediately expires after that and a future, fully-approved status (post human review and confirmation) is required for that pass member/guest to access the program again (to prevent the previously-discribed abuse case of churning temporary, preliminary approvals). Maybe something like that is already in place. No idea.

All that being said, I honestly believe that this current Six Flags system is likely preventing a large amount of the abuse that was taking place before. Just the fact that when guests walk up to guest services and say they can't wait in lines, they're now referred to a third party website that requires documentation and attestation to actual disabilities that would prevent queuing is a MAJOR improvement over what most of these systems were just a few years back (basically entirely honor-based and handled by a guest services employee who wasn't allowed to review or question basically anything at all).

 

[Mattatee]

Is Disney DAS still only for cognitive/developmental reasons? When I went in March, someone in my party who has Bladder Cancer did not qualify anymore due to the new acceptable disabilities so whenever he had to go which comes on often and quick he would have to leave the line. We still waited in the Queue and would wait for him to come back but some people would yell at him for cutting them in line. Some cast members that were greeters would escort/walk him through the line to us which was nice but most of the time he had to try to explain why he came out of the line and that he was told he could meet us after relieving himself. Overall It was not an enjoyable trip for him due to all the constant beratement from other park-goers.