Accessibility Accomodations Abuse

[MrBradferd]

This entire thing started with @RollyCoaster thinking someone can stand in a 30+min line if they can freely walk around the park. Which is just entirely false and I was defending that by saying it hurts me to stand in 30min. My back starts to act up baf and I twist and need ti start flexing and I don't even have legit back problems. But I can walk all day long and not have issues.
Maybe I misread his comment and took it wrong

NO I DO NOT HAVE ADA

 

[warfelg]

Ok - maybe it's because it's Monday, maybe it's because I've never interacted with these programs myself, maybe it's due to my poor dinner choice from last night is still assaulting my digestive system, but I am struggling with associating the term "double dipping" to the appropriate context. All I can envision is George Costanza getting accused of basically putting his whole mouth in the dip at the wake party.

Do ADA passes basically give you a window where you can access a ride? And it's not one-and-done? So essentially, if a current wait time is 30 minutes, and I have a 30-minute window, and the ADA line is essentially 5 minutes, I could theoretically snag multiple times "fast pass"-style when I otherwise wouldn't be able to? Is that right? Didn't Mythbusters disprove the this on one of their shows and it actually isn't a danger to double dip the chip?



(That last sentence is obviously intended as a joke.)

It might be used in the connotation that you are saying there. The ability to go through ADA, not have to wait as if you were in the line, then go ride something else. It could also be that you are getting the 'wait' ticket for one ride, and going on others while you would normally be in line.

 

[RollyCoaster]

Ok - maybe it's because it's Monday, maybe it's because I've never interacted with these programs myself, maybe it's due to my poor dinner choice from last night is still assaulting my digestive system, but I am struggling with associating the term "double dipping" to the appropriate context. All I can envision is George Costanza getting accused of basically putting his whole mouth in the dip at the wake party.

Do ADA passes basically give you a window where you can access a ride? And it's not one-and-done? So essentially, if a current wait time is 30 minutes, and I have a 30-minute window, and the ADA line is essentially 5 minutes, I could theoretically snag multiple times "fast pass"-style when I otherwise wouldn't be able to? Is that right? Didn't Mythbusters disprove the this on one of their shows and it actually isn't a danger to double dip the chip?



(That last sentence is obviously intended as a joke.)

I’m just using KD and BGW as references since those are the parks I’m most familiar with, but I’d imagine the associated chains have pretty similar procedures across their parks.

This is completely hypothetical, by the way.

Let’s say you have a Ride Accessibility Pass (RAP) and want to ride Twisted Timbers, but the wait is 1.5 hours. Instead of physically waiting in that 1.5 hour line, you get a return time for 1.5 hours later.

During that 1.5 hours, you can do whatever you want. Sit down, eat, get a drink, ride 6 other coasters with short waits, etc.

Once that 1.5 hours is up, you go to Twisted Timbers, bypass the majority of the standby line and ride. Then, once you’ve used that return time, you can get another one and repeat the process.

So in this example, let’s say I’m in the standby line and want to ride Twisted twice. I’m spending 3 hours in line.

Meanwhile, the person using the RAP can get their return time, go ride a bunch of other stuff, eat, hang out, whatever, come back and ride Twisted, then get another return time and start the process over.

That’s what I mean by “double dipping” in this context. I’m not saying you can have two return times at once. You can only have one at a time.

The issue is that a lot of enthusiasts and regular parkgoers know how to maximize the system. They can use their return time for the rides with the longest waits while spending that waiting period doing everything else in the park.

So compared to someone physically waiting in the standby line, they can potentially get significantly more done during that same 3 hours.

Again, I’m not talking about people who genuinely need the accommodation. If someone legitimately cannot stand in a traditional queue for an extended period of time, then that’s exactly what the accommodation is there for. Those individuals are significantly less likely to abuse the system.

I’m talking about people who are perfectly capable of spending hours walking around the park, riding other rides, shopping, eating, etc, but use the RAP specifically to avoid waiting when the lines get long.

 

[MrBradferd]

I’m just using KD and BGW as references since those are the parks I’m most familiar with, but I’d imagine the associated chains have pretty similar procedures across their parks.

This is completely hypothetical, by the way.

Let’s say you have a Ride Accessibility Pass (RAP) and want to ride Twisted Timbers, but the wait is 1.5 hours. Instead of physically waiting in that 1.5 hour line, you get a return time for 1.5 hours later.

During that 1.5 hours, you can do whatever you want. Sit down, eat, get a drink, ride 6 other coasters with short waits, etc.

Once that 1.5 hours is up, you go to Twisted Timbers, bypass the majority of the standby line and ride. Then, once you’ve used that return time, you can get another one and repeat the process.

So in this example, let’s say I’m in the standby line and want to ride Twisted twice. I’m spending 3 hours in line.

Meanwhile, the person using the RAP can get their return time, go ride a bunch of other stuff, eat, hang out, whatever, come back and ride Twisted, then get another return time and start the process over.

That’s what I mean by “double dipping” in this context. I’m not saying you can have two return times at once. You can only have one at a time.

The issue is that a lot of enthusiasts and regular parkgoers know how to maximize the system. They can use their return time for the rides with the longest waits while spending that waiting period doing everything else in the park.

So compared to someone physically waiting in the standby line, they can potentially get significantly more done during that same 3 hours.

Again, I’m not talking about people who genuinely need the accommodation. If someone legitimately cannot stand in a traditional queue for an extended period of time, then that’s exactly what the accommodation is there for. Those individuals are significantly less likely to abuse the system.

I’m talking about people who are perfectly capable of spending hours walking around the park, riding other rides, shopping, eating, etc, but use the RAP specifically to avoid waiting when the lines get long.

But for some standing in 1.5hrs is way worse than moving around being more active. So whats the problem?

 

[rswashdc]

I’ve long held that there’s an easy solution that would not make ADA users upset and deter anyone taking advantage:

ADA isn’t a pass to the front of the line, rather with an ADA pass when you get to the start of the queue you are given a ticket/pass/whatever, that based on the wait time, and the time it is, has a marking of when you can return to use the ADA entrance to the ride.

BGW does this and it's awful for disabled individuals when there isn't someone at the ride entrance to give out times. Making a physically disabled individual walk through the exit line twice or dealing with confused mentally disabled individuals going through that situation of not understanding why they can't ride the first time is a terrible experience.

Reverse boarding times or some kind of app are far better experiences for disabled guests and don't put additional burden on the disabled individual.

 

[RollyCoaster]

This entire thing started with @RollyCoaster thinking someone can stand in a 30+min line if they can freely walk around the park.

Don’t mischaracterize me @MrBradferd

In fact, I’m pretty fucking sure the first post in this thread says:

If you can get it use it. Screw those waiting. I only feel bad using ADA when something is on 1 train and the line is long.

Yet somehow I’m the one who started this?

I didn’t realize we were children who were incapable of owning up to what we actually said.

The entire argument started because of people who misuse a system that is specifically designed to accommodate people who genuinely cannot use a traditional queue. That discussion naturally turned into the much larger issue of how often this system is abused.

And yes, that includes people like you.

You have already openly admitted to using the system in ways that go against the entire point of the accommodation. So I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make by throwing baseless accusations at everyone who disagrees with you.

You’ve made it pretty clear that you don’t care about whether you’re abusing the system anyway, so why are you so concerned with who started the argument?

Own what you said, own what you admitted to doing, and stop trying to rewrite the conversation after the fact.

 

[rswashdc]

I’m just using KD and BGW as references since those are the parks I’m most familiar with, but I’d imagine the associated chains have pretty similar procedures across their parks.

This is completely hypothetical, by the way.

Let’s say you have a Ride Accessibility Pass (RAP) and want to ride Twisted Timbers, but the wait is 1.5 hours. Instead of physically waiting in that 1.5 hour line, you get a return time for 1.5 hours later.

During that 1.5 hours, you can do whatever you want. Sit down, eat, get a drink, ride 6 other coasters with short waits, etc.

Once that 1.5 hours is up, you go to Twisted Timbers, bypass the majority of the standby line and ride. Then, once you’ve used that return time, you can get another one and repeat the process.

So in this example, let’s say I’m in the standby line and want to ride Twisted twice. I’m spending 3 hours in line.

Meanwhile, the person using the RAP can get their return time, go ride a bunch of other stuff, eat, hang out, whatever, come back and ride Twisted, then get another return time and start the process over.

That’s what I mean by “double dipping” in this context. I’m not saying you can have two return times at once. You can only have one at a time.

The issue is that a lot of enthusiasts and regular parkgoers know how to maximize the system. They can use their return time for the rides with the longest waits while spending that waiting period doing everything else in the park.

So compared to someone physically waiting in the standby line, they can potentially get significantly more done during that same 3 hours.

Again, I’m not talking about people who genuinely need the accommodation. If someone legitimately cannot stand in a traditional queue for an extended period of time, then that’s exactly what the accommodation is there for. Those individuals are significantly less likely to abuse the system.

I’m talking about people who are perfectly capable of spending hours walking around the park, riding other rides, shopping, eating, etc, but use the RAP specifically to avoid waiting when the lines get long.

Usually if TT has a 1.5 hour wait with 2 trains, everything else in the park is likely busy. Apple Zapple is 45-60 mins, Racer is at 30, the Ferris Wheel is 30-45 mins, and all the food lines are long. Could you get another ride in while waiting for TT. Maybe, but if you can't wait in line more than a few minutes, the pass isn't going to help much. Maybe you can get some food or watch a show, but its not going to be coaster marathoning unless the person is actually healthy and doesn't need an accessibility pass.

 

[warfelg]

BGW does this and it's awful for disabled individuals when there isn't someone at the ride entrance to give out times. Making a physically disabled individual walk through the exit line twice or dealing with confused mentally disabled individuals going through that situation of not understanding why they can't ride the first time is a terrible experience.

Reverse boarding times or some kind of app are far better experiences for disabled guests and don't put additional burden on the disabled individual.

Well (IMO) that's an issue with BGW not staffing; not a problem with a system that would stop the use of a loophole IMO. An app will always be the best program, maybe something like virtual queueing could be done.

 

[Mushroom]

Well I guess our morals don't align then lol Fix the system if it's a problem. Ill tell anyone to abuse taxes and stuff to if it's within the law to do so. Lawyers and tax accountants ect all do loopholes. Sorry not sorry.

Using a disability pass when you don’t actually need it isn’t taking advantage of a loophole, it’s straight up lying. It only works because you’re exploiting the fact that the parks can’t do much to ask for proof of disability.

It’s less like leveraging an obscure rule in the tax system and more like lying on your tax forms about your taxable income. I.e. fraud.

Blaming the “system” for your ability to do this is like saying it’s not immoral to line jump as long as you don’t get caught. If the parks don’t staff their queues enough to look out for line jumpers, isn’t it the system’s fault if they didn’t catch you?

And the twisted irony is that this attitude seems to actively harm people who legitimately need a disability pass. It sucks that people who can’t enjoy the parks without it have to get lumped in with people who take pride in abusing the system because they feel like they can.

 

[RollyCoaster]

But for some standing in 1.5hrs is way worse than moving around being more active. So whats the problem?

But that’s literally the point I’m making.

Obviously, for some people, standing in one spot for 1.5 hours is significantly harder than walking around the park. I’m not arguing that those two things are physically equivalent.

What I’m saying is that literally everyone waiting in that 1.5 hour line would rather spend that 1.5 hours doing something else. That’s why we have a standby line in the first place. You’re trading your time for the ability to ride the attraction.

The accommodation exists for people who genuinely cannot tolerate the traditional queue environment, not simply for people who would prefer to spend that 1.5 hours doing something else.

If someone can spend that same 1.5 hours walking around the park, riding other rides, getting food, shopping, etc, then the question becomes whether the issue is actually an inability to wait for the attraction or simply not wanting to wait for the attraction.

Those are two very different things.

And again, I’m not saying everyone using ADA is abusing it. I’m specifically talking about people who have already admitted they use it because they don’t want to wait in long lines.

 

[rswashdc]

Well (IMO) that's an issue with BGW not staffing; not a problem with a system that would stop the use of a loophole IMO. An app will always be the best program, maybe something like virtual queueing could be done.

BGW shouldn't use that system because they cant/won't staff their entrances consistently. SF and legacy CF use reverse boarding, which works well since they largely don't staff entrances.

Virtual queues could work, but it wouldn't stop going to other rides while waiting in queue.

 

[rswashdc]

But that’s literally the point I’m making.

Obviously, for some people, standing in one spot for 1.5 hours is significantly harder than walking around the park. I’m not arguing that those two things are physically equivalent.

What I’m saying is that literally everyone waiting in that 1.5 hour line would rather spend that 1.5 hours doing something else. That’s why we have a standby line in the first place. You’re trading your time for the ability to ride the attraction.

The accommodation exists for people who genuinely cannot tolerate the traditional queue environment, not simply for people who would prefer to spend that 1.5 hours doing something else.

If someone can spend that same 1.5 hours walking around the park, riding other rides, getting food, shopping, etc, then the question becomes whether the issue is actually an inability to wait for the attraction or simply not wanting to wait for the attraction.

Those are two very different things.

And again, I’m not saying everyone using ADA is abusing it. I’m specifically talking about people who have already admitted they use it because they don’t want to wait in long lines.

You're actually making a good argument for broadening virtual queuing for general guests. Disney used to do this IIRC and its not a bad way to limit the really long waits for guests during the day. If everyone can virtually queue on rides over 30 min wait, that eases a lot of pressure on accessibility passes to those who really need them even for short waits.

 

[MrBradferd]

But that’s literally the point I’m making.

Obviously, for some people, standing in one spot for 1.5 hours is significantly harder than walking around the park. I’m not arguing that those two things are physically equivalent.

What I’m saying is that literally everyone waiting in that 1.5 hour line would rather spend that 1.5 hours doing something else. That’s why we have a standby line in the first place. You’re trading your time for the ability to ride the attraction.

The accommodation exists for people who genuinely cannot tolerate the traditional queue environment, not simply for people who would prefer to spend that 1.5 hours doing something else.

If someone can spend that same 1.5 hours walking around the park, riding other rides, getting food, shopping, etc, then the question becomes whether the issue is actually an inability to wait for the attraction or simply not wanting to wait for the attraction.

Those are two very different things.

And again, I’m not saying everyone using ADA is abusing it. I’m specifically talking about people who have already admitted they use it because they don’t want to wait in long lines.

Sounds like we agree then. If you just use it out of lazyness then you're a piece of shit. Sure yea. Who had admitted that though? Lol

 

[warfelg]

BGW shouldn't use that system because they cant/won't staff their entrances consistently. SF and legacy CF use reverse boarding, which works well since they largely don't staff entrances.

Virtual queues could work, but it wouldn't stop going to other rides while waiting in queue.

That doesn't all mean there couldn't be something in place.

Also Virtual queues can work - puts a QR done that needs to be scanned to use ADA entrance to a ride, and if they are queued for a ride already the app will notify deny or inability to add extra queue. Disney's virtual queue system already does that.

 

[MrBradferd]

Using a disability pass when you don’t actually need it isn’t taking advantage of a loophole, it’s straight up lying. It only works because you’re exploiting the fact that the parks can’t do much to ask for proof of disability.

It’s less like leveraging an obscure rule in the tax system and more like lying on your tax forms about your taxable income. I.e. fraud.

Blaming the “system” for your ability to do this is like saying it’s not immoral to line jump as long as you don’t get caught. If the parks don’t staff their queues enough to look out for line jumpers, isn’t it the system’s fault if they didn’t catch you?

And the twisted irony is that this attitude seems to actively harm people who legitimately need a disability pass. It sucks that people who can’t enjoy the parks without it have to get lumped in with people who take pride in abusing the system because they feel like they can.

Ok im not saying it that way at all. Im not saying just walk up as a normal free walking non handicap person and try and get a pass lol cmon now.

You know im not even about to explain this lmao Yall have a good one

 

[warfelg]

Obviously, for some people, standing in one spot for 1.5 hours is significantly harder than walking around the park

Just a for the record, even in most healthy people there does start to be pain when standing for 90 straight minutes:

How Long Can a Person Stand Without Sitting: A Verified Explanation

How long can a person stand without sitting? We break down limits, risks, influencing factors, and safe practices with verified detail and practical guidan

ir.mountaintopuniversity.edu.ng

Evidence of Health Risks Associated with Prolonged Standing at Work and Intervention Effectiveness - PMC

Prolonged standing at work has been shown to be associated with a number of potentially serious health outcomes, such as lower back and leg pain, cardiovascular problems, fatigue, discomfort, and pregnancy related health outcomes. Recent studies ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The accommodation exists for people who genuinely cannot tolerate the traditional queue environment, not simply for people who would prefer to spend that 1.5 hours doing something else.

This is just my opinion and I'm sure it will be unpopular:
Everything should have the option of virtual queue.
ADA passes should not be a 'front of the line' tool, they should have to wait as well.
Don't want to wait? Get a fast pass, even with ADA.
ADA entrances for rides should be for cases where you literally cannot make it through the traditional queue (inability to navigate obstacles like stairs, tight turns, ect.)

 

[rswashdc]

That doesn't all mean there couldn't be something in place.

Also Virtual queues can work - puts a QR done that needs to be scanned to use ADA entrance to a ride, and if they are queued for a ride already the app will notify deny or inability to add extra queue. Disney's virtual queue system already does that.

I dont see how this virtual queue would work unless all guests have to scan their phone to get on every ride. E.g. if a guest virtually queued for Pantheon based on a geo fence, I dont see how you could prevent them from going to ride the Tea Cups in the interim unless you scan every guest in the standby line, which would slow operations precipitously.

 

[northdetective]

You're actually making a good argument for broadening virtual queuing for general guests. Disney used to do this IIRC and its not a bad way to limit the really long waits for guests during the day. If everyone can virtually queue on rides over 30 min wait, that eases a lot of pressure on accessibility passes to those who really need them even for short waits.

This is how I feel about almost all accessible measures. Everyone generally benefits. Walkway slopes, elevators, handicap stalls, priority seating on transit, etc. are all useful to able-bodied people and will make their lives easier as well, as long as they appropriately yield usage to disabled people who rely on them.

I dont see how this virtual queue would work unless all guests have to scan their phone to get on every ride. E.g. if a guest virtually queued for Pantheon based on a geo fence, I dont see how you could prevent them from going to ride the Tea Cups in the interim unless you scan every guest in the standby line, which would slow operations precipitously.

Disney's free fast pass just wouldn't issue another fast pass until the return time of the previous one had passed. It really was a perfect virtual queue system, but of course we had to see stratification of the masses and it turned into pay to play

 

[RollyCoaster]

Im not saying just walk up as a normal free walking non handicap person and try and get a pass lol cmon now.

Yet, you’ve said:

If you can get it use it. Screw those waiting. I only feel bad using ADA when something is on 1 train and the line is long.

And:

Yea im done with this lol if the system exists use it. It’s the parks fault not mine they wrote it the way they did. Dont hate the player hate the game

On another note @warfelg

Just a for the record, even in most healthy people there does start to be pain when standing for 90 straight minutes:

How Long Can a Person Stand Without Sitting: A Verified Explanation

How long can a person stand without sitting? We break down limits, risks, influencing factors, and safe practices with verified detail and practical guidan

ir.mountaintopuniversity.edu.ng

Evidence of Health Risks Associated with Prolonged Standing at Work and Intervention Effectiveness - PMC

Prolonged standing at work has been shown to be associated with a number of potentially serious health outcomes, such as lower back and leg pain, cardiovascular problems, fatigue, discomfort, and pregnancy related health outcomes. Recent studies ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is just my opinion and I'm sure it will be unpopular:
Everything should have the option of virtual queue.
ADA passes should not be a 'front of the line' tool, they should have to wait as well.
Don't want to wait? Get a fast pass, even with ADA.
ADA entrances for rides should be for cases where you literally cannot make it through the traditional queue (inability to navigate obstacles like stairs, tight turns, ect.)

Not unpopular - In fact, I think you basically have it spot on. Virtual queue systems still need a ton of work in an amusement park setting, but I don’t think it will be too much longer before it becomes more common in the industry.

I also think the parks would see significantly more in park spending if guests spent more time in the pathways too.

Yes, standing for prolonged periods of times sucks. Anyone able to stand for 1.5hrs straight on concrete without foot pain should pass along the shoe recommendations lol.

 

[warfelg]

I dont see how this virtual queue would work unless all guests have to scan their phone to get on every ride. E.g. if a guest virtually queued for Pantheon based on a geo fence, I dont see how you could prevent them from going to ride the Tea Cups in the interim unless you scan every guest in the standby line, which would slow operations precipitously.

If you exclude certain rides and make is something anyone can take advantage with then it's fine. That's how Disney works basically.

And this is easy IMO: If you go to guest services to apply for the ADA access, they give a one time code you put into the app to have virtual queueing access for free. And if you don't have ADA access you pay for it.