Unused Kings Dominion Land Up for Sale
- Thread starter MaxxForceFan
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That parcel and the land south of the campground concern me from the pollution/water/noise aspects of data centers. Here’s a good article on the growing understanding of low frequency sounds and health impacts:
Low-frequency Noise Is Pervasive. Does That Matter?
An important passage as to why dB levels alone don’t tell the story:
Effectively the system is designed around high frequency over low frequency.
(Article sourced from cousin in law who is a professor of sound engineering and someone studying low frequency sound impacts)
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@warfelg yeah, that is a concern in addition to the overall problems with the proliferation of AI data centers without any of the companies involved having a realistic pathway to financial stability/breaking even on their costs/not relying upon stolen works to train their models/etc excepting perhaps independent property owners leasing their space.
However, if they were to stay east of the railroad or south of the power lines, it's questionable what the direct impact to the park would be - not saying there is none, but more that there may not be as large of concerns as there would be if a data center was placed right behind Soak City.
I think more people here are generally concerned about private development of any kind encroaching upon expansion/buffer space the park could use in the future. As I've previously stated, I think that concern is a bit overblown, but it's definitely something to pay attention to.
However, if they were to stay east of the railroad or south of the power lines, it's questionable what the direct impact to the park would be - not saying there is none, but more that there may not be as large of concerns as there would be if a data center was placed right behind Soak City.
I think more people here are generally concerned about private development of any kind encroaching upon expansion/buffer space the park could use in the future. As I've previously stated, I think that concern is a bit overblown, but it's definitely something to pay attention to.
In regards to that I agree, because if they sell so much land that it’s encroaching upon expansion, SF/KD is to blame not the people they sell the land to.
I would say that east of the railroad would pose the same issues as just behind Soak City. If the place builds as close to the easement lines as they can (typically what has happened) then the distance from the edges of the park would be close to the same. As I pointed out, the east of the railroad is just south of the camp grounds so if they go more north in that plot now it’s closer to where people are staying overnight.
Aside, but I’ve been doing a lot of research into them because I’m helping a friend try to do a push to not have them built in their hometown. Check out the battle going on in Luzern County Pa and the town of Frackville. A lot of what’s happening in their town halls is relying on the newest information that’s being researched regarding the impacts. While the noise is unsettling, the generators which tend to run more that advertised, the power drain (that also increases resident bills), and the water pollution are horrible. Right now the places that need the data centers are targeting rural towns because they figure to be pushovers with needing jobs, but they are leaving the town in ruins.
Problem is the data centers are needed for more than just AI. Cloud Computing uses it as well. So even if some AI/tech companies that are building these data centers go under, I think you would see the next evolution to be that bigger AI/tech companies buy the failing companies for the assets to add to what they have and use the physical plants over the intellectual property.
So if Google fails? Or AWS fails? Or Microslop fails?
Though we're getting off topic a bit: to my understanding a lot of the existing AI infrastructure is co-located with cloud infrastructure to increase speed since data doesn't have to travel as far all the time. However, much of the new buildings aren't necessarily needed for scaling cloud out, but instead contains cloud components more or less dedicated for more or less allowing outside entities (people, bots, etc) to access the AI resources. So while it's not incorrect that most of these AI data centers are also cloud data centers, they're also usually not doing the same thing as dedicated cloud data centers.
As someone who works in a field that makes use of such developments, I think humanity lost the plot a long time ago - though there could be results great for humanity and/or nature spawned from targeted AI usage, the ends can never justify the means. We're best to demolish them all and reclaim the land.
Though we're getting off topic a bit: to my understanding a lot of the existing AI infrastructure is co-located with cloud infrastructure to increase speed since data doesn't have to travel as far all the time. However, much of the new buildings aren't necessarily needed for scaling cloud out, but instead contains cloud components more or less dedicated for more or less allowing outside entities (people, bots, etc) to access the AI resources. So while it's not incorrect that most of these AI data centers are also cloud data centers, they're also usually not doing the same thing as dedicated cloud data centers.
As someone who works in a field that makes use of such developments, I think humanity lost the plot a long time ago - though there could be results great for humanity and/or nature spawned from targeted AI usage, the ends can never justify the means. We're best to demolish them all and reclaim the land.
Then someone will fill that space. Cloud computing and AI is not going to go away. The whole sector is unlikely to collapse to that level. Likely we will see a dotcom style collapse where things consolidate and a few mega players come out of it for the better.
Both however have similar impacts due to mass computing. And both are still being built out. From what I understand is you can build cloud computing centers separate from AI data centers, but not vice versa. (Via brother-in-law who’s a CTO)
For example Salesforce needs data centers, though much smaller in scale. But as Salesforce grows (or other CRM style companies) and integrate AI technologies (that are 3rd party companies) then they need to build out their own data centers to support the needs of a company like Salesforce. So the issue could be that Salesforce builds 2 cloud computing centers to support the needs, then their AI integration might need 5-6 data centers to support just the needs of Salesforce. So it becomes quickly compounding. And the popular thing is these companies buy more land than they really need to expand in the future basically without being checked.
The loudness curves that I posted are exactly about the way people perceive frequency - that is their purpose. If you are talking about infrasonics (sounds below the frequency that humans can perceive as sound), then that's a whole other ball of wax. Most studies regarding infrasonics collect data with amplitudes over 100db, and these can be felt rather than heard. I don't know of anyone who is studying infrasonic impacts at moderate levels.
I don't argue that maybe these low inaudible frequencies may trigger your migraines due to previous concussions. But a lot of medical 'science' is speculative rather than based on hard data, and this would have to be studied a lot further before we find any solid ground. Just because a doctor speaks something with confidence doesn't mean that he has data to back it up. The medical field hasn't even nailed down the causes behind migraines, but we've stepped well beyond the scope of this forum now.
Besides, Hanover County has regulations that only allow 77db noise to be measured on neighboring property in industrial zones, 67db for those not deemed 'industrial' (which at this point, most of the land for sale is not). The ambient noise now inside the park is definitely well above that level, even at low frequencies.
Not talking about infrasonics. Again, the way dB’s are measured it skews to higher frequencies:
noisemonitoringservices.com
There hasn’t been an extensive research at low frequency audible sounds like there hasn’t been high frequency.
Decibels Explained | Noise Monitoring Services Noise Monitoring Services
Decibels explained by the experienced & highly qualified acoustical consultants at Noise Monitoring Services, based in California.
noisemonitoringservices.com
There hasn’t been an extensive research at low frequency audible sounds like there hasn’t been high frequency.
A decibel is a decibel. Your article references weighting of measurements, but up to this point there has been no mention of weighting preference. I almost always use C-weighting myself, but you may be more interested in G-weighting with 0db point extending to 10Hz if you're investigating your particular case. In any case, even measuring frequencies down in that range require specific equipment and particular care for isolation of said equipment.
I think aside from a developer that wants to plop tons of houses on the plot for sale (not likely given the location), there isn't much that would greatly affect KD's operation and guests' enjoyment. Tons of houses could result in noise complaints in the other direction. It is a shame though, that SF doesn't seem interested in keeping the old Safari area.
I mean other than A-weighting being the standard most use when measuring decibels as pointed by an earlier article I posted…
And obviously I massively disagree on the impact of enjoyment of KD. There’s plenty of reasons beyond the noise to point to which I have brought up multiple times.
If housing development goes there (which would be planning malpractice for urban sprawl) then IMO they don’t deserve the right to complain about noise. I’ve been outspoken that it should be an entertainment district with hotels, dining, shopping, and evening activities.
And obviously I massively disagree on the impact of enjoyment of KD. There’s plenty of reasons beyond the noise to point to which I have brought up multiple times.
If housing development goes there (which would be planning malpractice for urban sprawl) then IMO they don’t deserve the right to complain about noise. I’ve been outspoken that it should be an entertainment district with hotels, dining, shopping, and evening activities.
Now that I can agree with. That is what is should be, but it would have to be quite large to pull people to that location.
The campground already suffers from noise pollution from the dorm parties on certain nights.......lol
I really hate to see any of this land being sold off. One of the reasons that KD is my favorite park to visit is because of its isolation. The other is the lack of lines. The view from the Eiffel Tower is pretty much solid trees as far as one can see with a few exceptions (Meadows event park, the few businesses across from the park, the few factories in the distance). The park feels like a true getaway from reality. What happened to Carowinds is my fear.
I really hate to see any of this land being sold off. One of the reasons that KD is my favorite park to visit is because of its isolation. The other is the lack of lines. The view from the Eiffel Tower is pretty much solid trees as far as one can see with a few exceptions (Meadows event park, the few businesses across from the park, the few factories in the distance). The park feels like a true getaway from reality. What happened to Carowinds is my fear.
Change will happen. When the park opened in 1975, there was no cell phones, no internet, no cloud, no AI. Now those technologies are front and center. And the necessity of the infrastructure to support those technologies is huge.
I was surprised that SF was selling the land right up against the southern border of Soak City and Pantherian. I thought there would be more of a land buffer between the park and any development further to the south.
I sort of expected the land south of the campground and east of the railroad/park would be put up for sale. The southern part of that property used to contain a softball field for KD's employees. The short east/west road, off of Doswell Road, which has a handful of single story homes. Those were originally used to house a good number of the permanent, year-round Wild Animal Safari (WAS) staff. At the far eastern part of that dead-end road were 2-3 green-houses owned by KD. In the early years, the park grew most of their plants/shrubs used in the park landscaping.
Now, the softball field is gone. There has been no Wild Animal Safari since 1992 and the need for that park housing for full-time, year-round WAS employees went with it. I am assuming that KD now outsources plants/shrubs from a wholesale nursery. So, the need for the greenhouses is eliminated. as well.
The issues I see for quick development (within the next 3-5 years) are the following:
If the land is sold, it does not matter if the land is developed within a few years or sits undeveloped for several decades. SF/KD would no longer own and control the destiny of that land.
I was surprised that SF was selling the land right up against the southern border of Soak City and Pantherian. I thought there would be more of a land buffer between the park and any development further to the south.
I sort of expected the land south of the campground and east of the railroad/park would be put up for sale. The southern part of that property used to contain a softball field for KD's employees. The short east/west road, off of Doswell Road, which has a handful of single story homes. Those were originally used to house a good number of the permanent, year-round Wild Animal Safari (WAS) staff. At the far eastern part of that dead-end road were 2-3 green-houses owned by KD. In the early years, the park grew most of their plants/shrubs used in the park landscaping.
Now, the softball field is gone. There has been no Wild Animal Safari since 1992 and the need for that park housing for full-time, year-round WAS employees went with it. I am assuming that KD now outsources plants/shrubs from a wholesale nursery. So, the need for the greenhouses is eliminated. as well.
The issues I see for quick development (within the next 3-5 years) are the following:
- Doswell road is woefully lacking the ability to handle any meaningful traffic without a major upgrade.
- The road that parallels I-95 is lacking in the same way past the employee parking lot entrance.
- If access to the west parcel is to the east, that means a new railroad crossing to get to the property,
- Course, water/sewer infrastructure will be needed as well as connection to the electrical grid.
- Not sure what the Hanover County Board of Supervisors feels about this potential land sale.
- It seems the majority of Hanover residents are outright against any Data Centers being built in the County. And they have given the county BOS an earful already.
If the land is sold, it does not matter if the land is developed within a few years or sits undeveloped for several decades. SF/KD would no longer own and control the destiny of that land.
It'll be interesting to see what kind of clean-up Kings Dominion has to do to get the property ready for sale if or when the land gets sold.
While it's underutilized land I wouldn't say any of the land Kings Dominion has up for sale right now is "unused". I think it's been mentioned before, Kings Dominion pumps water from the North Anna River. (I believe for the water park) The pump house and volume tank are near the bank of the river east of the park. Near there, what I believe to be all of Kings Dominion landscape greenhouses are situated. They'd have to move that operation if they haven't already.
Also, that land is currently the only access for most vehicles to get to the ambassador dorms and campground. Either another access road would have to be built or the vehicles would have to become street legal.
South of the park in the old safari, the only thing used is the trails for maintenance to access the water park and Safari Village. The rest is boneyard. It's where all the old asphalt gets dumped in favor of concrete pavers for the walkways. There is one building left in there that I know of, not used, but interesting. The veterinarian building for the safari still stands in the middle there. There is old park stuff in and around the building. Would Kings Dominion just sell the land as is or have to go in there and clean it all out?
It's little things like this I think about, but it has been awhile since I've been at the park. A lot may have been changed since then. This stuff may all have been addressed.
While it's underutilized land I wouldn't say any of the land Kings Dominion has up for sale right now is "unused". I think it's been mentioned before, Kings Dominion pumps water from the North Anna River. (I believe for the water park) The pump house and volume tank are near the bank of the river east of the park. Near there, what I believe to be all of Kings Dominion landscape greenhouses are situated. They'd have to move that operation if they haven't already.
Also, that land is currently the only access for most vehicles to get to the ambassador dorms and campground. Either another access road would have to be built or the vehicles would have to become street legal.
South of the park in the old safari, the only thing used is the trails for maintenance to access the water park and Safari Village. The rest is boneyard. It's where all the old asphalt gets dumped in favor of concrete pavers for the walkways. There is one building left in there that I know of, not used, but interesting. The veterinarian building for the safari still stands in the middle there. There is old park stuff in and around the building. Would Kings Dominion just sell the land as is or have to go in there and clean it all out?
It's little things like this I think about, but it has been awhile since I've been at the park. A lot may have been changed since then. This stuff may all have been addressed.
The new substation Dominion is building may have already cut off some access to the dorms, but the dorms at least connect to Doswell Rd directly. Looks like the campground is serviced by a dirt road off of Dominion Dr, which would have to be forfeit. They would probably have to connect the dorms and campground with a new service road.
Also, going back over the sale brochure, I noticed this wording:
Is this suggesting that the dorm and campground themselves could be included in the sale if the price is right? The boundaries defined in the brochure legend do not include them... but I'm wondering why they even mentioned them at all.
I would look at that some as “if the price is right” but mostly as a “you want to make your own main road access you need to pay up.”
Most importantly that passage reads to me a “take what you want” type of wording.
Now I'm taking closer look at the hypothetical site plans they proposed, and both options actually include an extension of Theme Park Way to access the west parcel. The west parcel wouldn't connect to Doswell Rd at all, which I hadn't even considered as a possibility.
Depending on how fluid this sale is, we could really be in for some restructuring of operations. Perhaps a buyer is very interested in only the east parcel, but wants the dorm and/or campground land too, and is willing to pay a premium for it. KD could leverage extra money to relocate the dorms/campground to the west parcel, extend Theme Park Way for access, and that new water park gate is actually closer to reality than ever.
That only works if the Western parcel is both unrestricted for development and not part of the sale.
But that would also mean SF dropping a lot of capex on developments that potentially won't drive fast ROI, so I'm not seeing it happen unless the Western parcel was bought by a new campground and/or dorms operator.
But that would also mean SF dropping a lot of capex on developments that potentially won't drive fast ROI, so I'm not seeing it happen unless the Western parcel was bought by a new campground and/or dorms operator.
There would need to be some dorms in some way for their international and intern employees unless they set something up with a short term rental or longer term hotel company.
The campground is another story though IMO - I think them willing to move on from it in selling the land is maybe they aren’t that interested in keeping it going or they think Kalahari is going to take a lot of that business. I personally don’t think it’s a great idea to not have it or at least a KOA right near the park as it offers an easy stay especially to family’s on the move through the summer.
SF doesn't want to have to build new dorms or a new campground. KD would take a hit, both operationally and financially, if they had to restructure or relocate. The scope of the initial offer does not include the land they sit on, but the verbiage in the brochure leaves it open-ended.
If a buyer really wants that land, SF would at minimum have to take a hit to restructure their employee operations, which does not result in any ROI but is operationally necessary. There will also be lost future revenue from the campground. If SF has their wits about them, they can say "Hey, we'll include that land in the sale, but we need employee housing and we don't want to lose out on campground revenue in the future."
The sale price would reflect those incurred costs, so fast ROI isn't necessarily a driver here like it usually is.