News Project 2027/Purple: Delayed “World Record Breaking Coaster" (Phantom Spire?)

[Zachary]

No part about this new coaster is a first. Every "record" it will have will be contingent it being the superlative spinning coaster in any given category.

I fail to see why this is relevant. It's impossible for the project to break the generic, worldwide height, speed, or length records set by Falcon's Flight. It's not even remotely in the realm of possibility. Taking the height and speed records for a style of coaster (spinning) is as "record-break-ey" as this coaster could possibly be.

It's also not innovative to put launches on the underside of coaster track. Volcano existed, and some Intamin impulses still do.

This is clearly a bad faith counterargument. The launch fin position in relation to the track obviously doesn't matter, what matters is that riders will be upside-down throughout the launch.

 

[northdetective]

I fail to see why this is relevant. It's impossible for the project to break the generic, worldwide height, speed, or length records set by Falcon's Flight. It's not even remotely in the realm of possibility. Taking the height and speed records for a style of coaster (spinning) is as "record-break-ey" as this coaster could possibly be.



This is clearly a bad faith counterargument. The launch fin position in relation to the track obviously doesn't matter, what matters is that riders will be upside-down throughout the launch.

???? What kind of response is this lmfao. You keep bringing up how its the first of its kind, so I addressed that.

The technical challenge of an inverted launch is due to gravity existing. It's relevant to compare a launch on an inverted coaster. The difference is just a question of train design.

 

[Zachary]

???? What kind of response is this lmfao. You keep bringing up how its the first of its kind, so I addressed that.

Your contention isn't that it isn't the first-of-its-kind, your contention is that it isn't first-of-its-kind-enough for you.

Yes or no, is it the first strata spinning coaster? Yes or no, is it the first coaster to feature an inverted stall launch? The answer to both is yes and hence, it is the first-of-its-kind—you just assert that its firsts aren't relevant.

The technical challenge of an inverted launch is due to gravity existing. It's relevant to compare a launch on an inverted coaster. The difference is just a question of train design.

What relevance does the technical challenge have? That's a total red herring. The quality of the experience on-ride is what guests care about, not how many man-hours the engineers spent trying to figure out how to accomplish that ride experience.

 

[northdetective]

Your contention isn't that it isn't the first-of-its-kind, your contention is that it isn't first-of-its-kind-enough for you.

Yes or no, is it the first strata spinning coaster? Yes or no, is it the first coaster to feature an inverted stall launch? The answer to both is yes and hence, it is the first-of-its-kind—you just assert that its firsts aren't relevant.



What relevance does the technical challenge have? That's a total red herring. The quality of the experience on-ride is what guests care about, not how many man-hours the engineers spent trying to figure out how to accomplish that ride experience.

Good thing was my claim was an inverted launch is "not innovative," directly relating to engineering manhours. And good thing you agree that the records are irrelevant. I don't know what we're disagreeing on now

 

[DWNitro]

Concepts show a first-of-its-kind, launched, inverted stall, not the "same stalling shuttle gimmick they installed last year."

Flash was a garbage addition to Great Adventure. Many of us happily agree with that. I would be happy to see it disassembled and shipped to another, smaller park where its capacity would make sense and where it could be a stand-out addition. Is the strata shuttle spinner somewhat duplicative with Flash? Yes. I don't know why we condemn the insane-looking, custom layout spinning strata for that similarity rather than the off-the-shelf, shipped-in-at-the-last-minute-from-another-park, single-train shuttle they half-heartedly plopped next to the park entrance.

Flash is barely a footnote in SFGAdv's lineup. This new coaster is going to be an icon of the park for (hopefully) decades to come.

I like Flash and I think it was a decent opportunistic addition in a lineup that needed SOMETHING. The goal would be to have it as middle of the pack coaster though, not a 120 min wait shuttle coaster in the busy season LOL

 

[Suspense]

At this point you are arguing just to argue. How could you be a roller coaster enthusiast and not be excited about the prospect of accelerating up to 80+mph while inverted on a stall and spinning? There is quite literally nothing like that in the world. And on the shuttle topic , would you be happy if the ride was full circuit if it just had a drop from the top of the tower into the brakes?

 

[MikeGS6789]

I like Flash and I think it was a decent opportunistic addition in a lineup that needed SOMETHING. The goal would be to have it as middle of the pack coaster though, not a 120 min wait shuttle coaster in the busy season LOL

GAdv should have gotten Sirens Curse instead of Flash.

 

[northdetective]

At this point you are arguing just to argue. How could you be a roller coaster enthusiast and not be excited about the prospect of accelerating up to 80+mph while inverted on a stall and spinning? There is quite literally nothing like that in the world. And on the shuttle topic , would you be happy if the ride was full circuit if it just had a drop from the top of the tower into the brakes?

And you're responding just to respond? If I love arguing so much shouldn't you deprive me of the opportunity?

I'm not going to apologize for having higher expectations. This is just another Gimmickbahn meant to be experienced through vertical video instead of enjoyed by riding. I would be happy if the ride stopped trying to aspire toward experientially empty records and put the money into length/duration instead of speed and height. Unsure what's so incomprehensible about that.

GAdv should have gotten Sirens Curse instead of Flash.

Yes, and the fact that they didn't reflects just how low its position in the hierarchy of Cedar Flags is. Apparently Cedar Point needed a "distraction" from TT2 (which had amazing uptime all season anyway) more than Great Adventure needed an effective distraction from the extremely public death of Kingda Ka. Great Adventure couldn't even get the better of two coasters without homes.

 

[DWNitro]

GAdv should have gotten Sirens Curse instead of Flash.

Totally agree. I wish that was the case even as someone who likes Flash

 

[sharpr1]

I like Flash and I think it was a decent opportunistic addition in a lineup that needed SOMETHING. The goal would be to have it as middle of the pack coaster though, not a 120 min wait shuttle coaster in the busy season LOL

This. I get that it's a niche addition amidst a sea of significant ride removals at a big park. But as I wrote elsewhere, it's not the first time GAdv has done this. Flash is essentially Batman & Robin the Chiller 2.0, with all the kinks and pain sorted out. And I stood on line for hours to ride that the first few summers it opened. The only problem I see with The Flash is the wait time to get on. It changes and depends on what time of day and what else is happening at the park. If you can wait ~30 mins or less, it's a great ride. 60+ mins? Meh. The capacity issue is the Achilles heel, so I totally get those aggravated by it being at GAdv.

 

[sharpr1]

I like Flash and I think it was a decent opportunistic addition in a lineup that needed SOMETHING. The goal would be to have it as middle of the pack coaster though, not a 120 min wait shuttle coaster in the busy season LOL

I also have the same reaction to Fahrenheit at Hershey. Similar coaster in terms of short duration, launch, tight turns and rolls. Barely :60 ride not worth it if you have to wait 60-120 mins for it. It's a good ride, but good Lord, not for those kinds of waits.

 

[Zachary]

Good thing was my claim was an inverted launch is "not innovative," directly relating to engineering manhours.

Sorry, the dictionary disagrees.

innovative
adjective
/ˈɪn.ə.veɪ.t̬ɪv/
using new methods or ideas

innovative

1. using new methods or ideas: 2. using new methods or ideas: 3. (of ideas…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Launching a train through an inverted stall is a new method of launching a train. The idea has never been implemented previously. Hence, definitionally, innovative.

If you want to assert your own definition of innovative, feel free, but doing so doesn't invalidate my claim as my usage is obviously valid per, again, the dictionary.

And good thing you agree that the records are irrelevant.

This was obviously never ceded ground.

---

I don't care if you don't like the proposed shuttle strata spinner. I don't think anyone here cares whether you like it or not. Your attempt to argue that it's not special, not noteworthy, not marketable, etc are patently absurd though.

The shuttle strata spinner is far from what I would have picked if I were in control and just looking at the project through my own selfish lens. That said, I (as I think everyone should be able to) can easily step back and view the project more objectively—trading an iconic, record-breaking, gimmick coaster for an iconic, record-breaking, gimmick coaster is a plenty fair trade—especially when it will almost certainly be notably superior to Ka by many metrics (reridability, uptime, guest satisfaction, operating cost, etc).

Yes, and the fact that they didn't reflects just how low its position in the hierarchy of Cedar Flags is. Apparently Cedar Point needed a "distraction" from TT2 (which had amazing uptime all season anyway) more than Great Adventure needed an effective distraction from the extremely public death of Kingda Ka. Great Adventure couldn't even get the better of two coasters without homes.

We totally agree here and you can find posts by me on this forum saying exactly that. The merged Six Flags chain jumped through their asses to try to baby their customers in Sandusky while basically spitting in the faces of their customers in Jersey. It's fucked and you're right to be livid about it. The Cedar Point bias in the chain has been super apparent and many of us think it is way overboard. It's possible that there's a real Texas bias developing in the chain too that we're likely gonna be grumbling about in the years ahead.

Lots of things about the Six Flags chain both pre and post merger really fucking suck. Many of us hated the way Six Flags was run pre-merger, were frustrated by some of the decisions Cedar Fair was making pre-merger, and are absolutely disgusted by the reality we now live in—a merged Six Flags and Cedar Fair dominating the regional amusement industry across the country.

All that being said, again, while SFGAdv has had a long, long history of being treated like shit, the rumored '27 addition (land overhaul, themed shuttle strata spinner, etc) is not part and parcel of treating a park like shit. You don't have to be hopeful. Keep your pessimism, I don't care, but a lot of us are hopeful and I believe the signs on the ground thus far are giving us good reason for that optimism—even if the shuttle strata spinner isn't exactly what we would have picked ourselves.

 

[GASM]

It’s also likely not going to be far off from Ka’s capacity solely based off of how much downtime Ka had, and I’d be stunned if annual ridership isn’t considerably higher due to location. It seems pretty apparent to me that they aren’t planning on repeating the mistake of putting Ka’s entrance so far away from anything else.

 

[RDL]

Flash was a result of bad timing more than anything else. If GAdv waited just one more year they likely would’ve landed Sirens Curse instead. Kinda crazy how the one attempt to actually add a coaster that isn’t insanely overdue ends up coming back to bite them.

That said, I do really enjoy Flash and think it’s a cool addition

 

[northdetective]

Sorry, the dictionary disagrees.

innovative
adjective
/ˈɪn.ə.veɪ.t̬ɪv/
using new methods or ideas

innovative

1. using new methods or ideas: 2. using new methods or ideas: 3. (of ideas…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Launching a train through an inverted stall is a new method of launching a train. The idea has never been implemented previously. Hence, definitionally, innovative.

If you want to assert your own definition of innovative, feel free, but doing so doesn't invalidate my claim as my usage is obviously valid per, again, the dictionary.



This was obviously never ceded ground.

---

I don't care if you don't like the proposed shuttle strata spinner. I don't think anyone here cares whether you like it or not. Your attempt to argue that it's not special, not noteworthy, not marketable, etc are patently absurd though.

The shuttle strata spinner is far from what I would have picked if I were in control and just looking at the project through my own selfish lens. That said, I (as I think everyone should be able to) can easily step back and view the project more objectively—trading an iconic, record-breaking, gimmick coaster for an iconic, record-breaking, gimmick coaster is a plenty fair trade—especially when it will almost certainly be notably superior to Ka by many metrics (reridability, uptime, guest satisfaction, operating cost, etc).



We totally agree here and you can find posts by me on this forum saying exactly that. The merged Six Flags chain jumped through their asses to try to baby their customers in Sandusky while basically spitting in the faces of their customers in Jersey. It's fucked and you're right to be livid about it. The Cedar Point bias in the chain has been super apparent and many of us think it is way overboard. It's possible that there's a real Texas bias developing in the chain too that we're likely gonna be grumbling about in the years ahead.

Lots of things about the Six Flags chain both pre and post merger really fucking suck and many of us hated the way Six Flags was run pre-merger, were frustrated by some of the decisions Cedar Fair was making pre-merger, and are absolutely disgusted by the reality we now live in—a merged Six Flags and Cedar Fair dominating the regional amusement industry across the country.

All that being said, again, while SFGAdv has had a long, long history of being treated like shit, the rumored '27 addition (land overhaul, highly themed shuttle strata spinner, etc) is not part and parcel of treating a park like shit. You don't have to be hopeful. Keep your pessimism, I don't care, but a lot of us are hopeful and I believe the signs on the ground thus far are giving us good reason for that optimism—even if the shuttle strata spinner isn't exactly what we would have picked ourselves.

I think we both know that new ideas aren't born or implemented without manhours of work, but you win there. Enjoy.

I guess I just don't understand what's outwardly offensive to everybody about what I say. I'm not starting an argument when I say I disagree, I'm furthering a conversation. It's okay to admit it if you only want your own perspectives validated (I'll openly admit it would be nice to be validated more. It was nice when a few people were nice about my timeline chart), but it's quite tiresome that people act like I'm "arguing for fun." I would like to talk to people who share great memories at Great Adventure and want the best for it, even if we don't agree on what's best, and speculate about its future. I think the Mack spinner is a poor choice that will fail to provide the shot in the arm that the park needs, and I think people defend it vigorously because we all know the future of the park is reliant on it. Everyone agrees the past has been rocky, but for some reason the idea that the status quo of poorly-conceived additions that die slowly of neglect will continue causes outrage. I don't know why.

 

[amperedragon]

If you were in charge of SFGAdv, which of these would you pick to replace Green Lantern & Kingda Ka?

1. Phantom Spire, as our best guess currently expects it to turn out.
2. Tormenta Rampaging Run, with very similar stats and layout to what we're seeing at SFOT
3. Nothing, at least for the next few years, and with no guarantee that you'll be able to do something then

Best I can tell, those were essentially the three options on the table. When faced with that choice, I think the overwhelming majority would say option #1 is the most desirable. No, it is not the ideal ride for the park, but it is something with a high degree of uniqueness that will probably make a pretty sizable impact with the public. Yes, the dive coaster would be better from a capacity perspective, but several parks in the area host similar experiences and I'd wager a lot more enthusiasts would be calling that an unexciting addition. Instead of a safe, predictable attraction, Six Flags is spending probably $30-40 million (if not more) on a one of a kind prototype that may not be everyone's cup of tea but will be something everyone wants to try at least once. An investment like that is not something a company does at a site they don't have long term confidence in, it's what you do to reinvigorate a park with a ton of underutilized potential.

There are a lot of reasons to be unhappy at Six Flags right now. Even if you're not as hyped about the ride, being unhappy because your park is getting one of the craziest concepts we've seen out of them in over a decade (not to mention one of only four known major coasters coming in the next couple years) is a pretty strange one.

 

[RDL]

If you were in charge of SFGAdv, which of these would you pick to replace Green Lantern & Kingda Ka?

1. Phantom Spire, as our best guess currently expects it to turn out.
2. Tormenta Rampaging Run, with very similar stats and layout to what we're seeing at SFOT
3. Nothing, at least for the next few years, and with no guarantee that you'll be able to do something then

Best I can tell, those were essentially the three options on the table. When faced with that choice, I think the overwhelming majority would say option #1 is the most desirable. No, it is not the ideal ride for the park, but it is something with a high degree of uniqueness that will probably make a pretty sizable impact with the public. Yes, the dive coaster would be better from a capacity perspective, but several parks in the area host similar experiences and I'd wager a lot more enthusiasts would be calling that an unexciting addition. Instead of a safe, predictable attraction, Six Flags is spending probably $30-40 million (if not more) on a one of a kind prototype that may not be everyone's cup of tea but will be something everyone wants to try at least once. An investment like that is not something a company does at a site they don't have long term confidence in, it's what you do to reinvigorate a park with a ton of underutilized potential.

There are a lot of reasons to be unhappy at Six Flags right now. Even if you're not as hyped about the ride, being unhappy because your park is getting one of the craziest concepts we've seen out of them in over a decade (not to mention one of only four known major coasters coming in the next couple years) is a pretty strange one.

Phantom Spire (if that’s what it’s gonna be called) is going to be a better ride than Tormenta. I feel pretty confident in that

 

[northdetective]

If you were in charge of SFGAdv, which of these would you pick to replace Green Lantern & Kingda Ka?

1. Phantom Spire, as our best guess currently expects it to turn out.
2. Tormenta Rampaging Run, with very similar stats and layout to what we're seeing at SFOT
3. Nothing, at least for the next few years, and with no guarantee that you'll be able to do something then

Best I can tell, those were essentially the three options on the table. When faced with that choice, I think the overwhelming majority would say option #1 is the most desirable. No, it is not the ideal ride for the park, but it is something with a high degree of uniqueness that will probably make a pretty sizable impact with the public. Yes, the dive coaster would be better from a capacity perspective, but several parks in the area host similar experiences and I'd wager a lot more enthusiasts would be calling that an unexciting addition. Instead of a safe, predictable attraction, Six Flags is spending probably $30-40 million (if not more) on a one of a kind prototype that may not be everyone's cup of tea but will be something everyone wants to try at least once. An investment like that is not something a company does at a site they don't have long term confidence in, it's what you do to reinvigorate a park with a ton of underutilized potential.

There are a lot of reasons to be unhappy at Six Flags right now. Even if you're not as hyped about the ride, being unhappy because your park is getting one of the craziest concepts we've seen out of them in over a decade (not to mention one of only four known major coasters coming in the next couple years) is a pretty strange one.

How were these the only three options? Why was building a normal Mack spinner or gasp! a custom layout a complete impossibility?

A big issue I have is how closely the concept mirrors Kingda Ka while watering the experience down for a very visible gimmick (spinning). For anyone who has ridden Kingda Ka, an 80 mph lsm launch will feel notably different than the hydraulic 128 mph. I used to grey out regularly on KK, while TT2 provides a longer but milder version of the same experience imo. If for some reason I don't understand I could only do one of these three things, I'd have picked the dive coaster, if only because it doesn't at all seem to be aspiring toward what Kingda Ka was. I actually think they could've sold a dive to the public as a GL replacement and promise something actually worthwhile will be coming down the road to replace KK. The height of Tormenta wouldve been enough to differentiate it from Iron Menace, but the layout is substantial enough that it doesn't feel like it exists for just for superlative titles. Make it green and the public will immediately recognize it's an attempt at bigger and better than Green Lantern, rathern than an attempt at shorter and slower than KK.

 

[sfnefan]

How were these the only three options? Why was building a normal Mack spinner or gasp! a custom layout a complete impossibility?

A big issue I have is how closely the concept mirrors Kingda Ka while watering the experience down for a very visible gimmick (spinning). For anyone who has ridden Kingda Ka, an 80 mph lsm launch will feel notably different than the hydraulic 128 mph. I used to grey out regularly on KK, while TT2 provides a longer but milder version of the same experience imo. If for some reason I don't understand I could only do one of these three things, I'd have picked the dive coaster, if only because it doesn't at all seem to be aspiring toward what Kingda Ka was. I actually think they could've sold a dive to the public as a GL replacement and promise something actually worthwhile will be coming down the road to replace KK. The height of Tormenta wouldve been enough to differentiate it from Iron Menace, but the layout is substantial enough that it doesn't feel like it exists for just for superlative titles. Make it green and the public will immediately recognize it's an attempt at bigger and better than Green Lantern, rathern than an attempt at shorter and slower than KK.

A first of its kind, launched inversion will be pretty different than anything seen before. I don't love the idea of this addition, but its definitely unique will be different enough from Ka.

 

[DWNitro]

Sorry, the dictionary disagrees.

innovative
adjective
/ˈɪn.ə.veɪ.t̬ɪv/
using new methods or ideas

innovative

1. using new methods or ideas: 2. using new methods or ideas: 3. (of ideas…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Launching a train through an inverted stall is a new method of launching a train. The idea has never been implemented previously. Hence, definitionally, innovative.

If you want to assert your own definition of innovative, feel free, but doing so doesn't invalidate my claim as my usage is obviously valid per, again, the dictionary.



This was obviously never ceded ground.

---

I don't care if you don't like the proposed shuttle strata spinner. I don't think anyone here cares whether you like it or not. Your attempt to argue that it's not special, not noteworthy, not marketable, etc are patently absurd though.

The shuttle strata spinner is far from what I would have picked if I were in control and just looking at the project through my own selfish lens. That said, I (as I think everyone should be able to) can easily step back and view the project more objectively—trading an iconic, record-breaking, gimmick coaster for an iconic, record-breaking, gimmick coaster is a plenty fair trade—especially when it will almost certainly be notably superior to Ka by many metrics (reridability, uptime, guest satisfaction, operating cost, etc).



We totally agree here and you can find posts by me on this forum saying exactly that. The merged Six Flags chain jumped through their asses to try to baby their customers in Sandusky while basically spitting in the faces of their customers in Jersey. It's fucked and you're right to be livid about it. The Cedar Point bias in the chain has been super apparent and many of us think it is way overboard. It's possible that there's a real Texas bias developing in the chain too that we're likely gonna be grumbling about in the years ahead.

Lots of things about the Six Flags chain both pre and post merger really fucking suck. Many of us hated the way Six Flags was run pre-merger, were frustrated by some of the decisions Cedar Fair was making pre-merger, and are absolutely disgusted by the reality we now live in—a merged Six Flags and Cedar Fair dominating the regional amusement industry across the country.

All that being said, again, while SFGAdv has had a long, long history of being treated like shit, the rumored '27 addition (land overhaul, themed shuttle strata spinner, etc) is not part and parcel of treating a park like shit. You don't have to be hopeful. Keep your pessimism, I don't care, but a lot of us are hopeful and I believe the signs on the ground thus far are giving us good reason for that optimism—even if the shuttle strata spinner isn't exactly what we would have picked ourselves.

People are acting like we’re getting a boring clone or something. It’s a (likely) 400ft+ one of a kind custom coaster from an elite manufacturer. If this was made by Intamin, the narrative would be very different.