Project 2022: Pantheon

[Unagi]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I just disagree that it has to be big and thrilling to have an impact.

Well we can agree to disagree then. Because the gate numbers are the proof in the pudding. When BGW installed Griffon, it was the first time the park hit over 3 million visitors that year. And not only did they hit 3 million, they shattered it. No other installation at the park since then has had anything close to that impact as far as gate numbers go, they've been on a decline since. However, I'm still waiting to see if InvadR had any impact as industry attendance numbers won't be released until May/June.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I just disagree that it has to be big and thrilling to have an impact.

Well we can agree to disagree then.  Because the gate numbers are the proof in the pudding.  When BGW installed Griffon, it was the first time the park hit over 3 million visitors that year.  And not only did they hit 3 million, they shattered it.  No other installation at the park since then has had anything close to that impact as far as gate numbers go, they've been on a decline since.  However, I'm still waiting to see if InvadR had any impact as industry attendance numbers won't be released until May/June.

Fair enough. I'm not sure where to find all of that but I would be interested in how it's reflected against industry averages, it's growth/shrink, and comparable parks over time, with markers of when they installed stuff. Mostly from what I found, attendance at amusement parks is down in the industry in general.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

FWIW Unagi, I'm enjoying this conversation. I'm a very much believer in rounding out your park and making sure the bottom end and mid range rides are taken care of is important as having the big thrills taken care of.

In terms of BGW I wholly agree with you. They are very family friendly heavy. Even in two of their 'big thrill' rides (Apollo, Nessie) tends to be friendly. They need some top end rides.

But I was talking more on the whole and why we might see a slow down of B&M/Intamin rides here in the states VS in the Asia market. I'm looking at what's happened in the states since 2011, and we got lots of more thrilling rides like RMC's, launch coasters, wing coasters.

In terms of notable family coasters: Verbolten, Freedom Flyer, White Lightning, Manta (SWSD), Firechaser Express, Laff Trakk, Cobras Curse, Mystic Timbers, InvadR, Wave Breaker, Slinky Dog Dash.

There is some dud's in there, but there's some hidden gems. I love White Lightning, Mystic Timbers, Bolt, InvadR, Laff Trakk. We could really use more like that across the country.

In the mean time (of what I've ridden) the thrill 'duds' is longer IMO. The Joker S&S 4th D clones, Mine Blower, Mako (I know this is unpopular), Tempesto, Impulse, Banshee (Again unpopular), Full Throttle (more like half throttle), GateKeeper was a bit underwhelming to me. Even through they are fun to ride, the wing riders are a little underwhelming. So I do like riding them, but they just kinda end up 'meh' in the end.

I dunno, maybe I'm a minority. But the way Mack, S&S, Vekoma are focusing on some quality family friendly rides I think we're going to see more of those in the coming years. Like IMO while RMC is becoming a hot thing, GCI and Gravity Group is very quietly putting out some great coasters.

So I think the parks are going to find value in smaller family friendly coasters. Lower price tags while still having new rides to market out there.

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

The behavior of you two is unfit for the forums. Civil conversation has no place here. You two should be each other's throats and be sending harassing PMs to each other now.

 

[Zimmy]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

one should probably quit and explain how he is going to X Website where they are not BGW shills, appreciate their users, and follow XYZ rules which is clearly the right thing to do.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Hahaha. I've really chilled out in the last few years with this stuff. I've learned to appreciate others POV rather than argue against it.

I can get the part where there's a want for more thrilling and bigger thrills. It's what drives us enthusiasts. Unfortunately we're not at the core of the industry. Families are. Families that can have everything from 4-5 year olds to 16-18 year olds. That's a large swath to appease. So making sure that mid area is filled out is important IMO and good quality midlevel thrills is what's missing, in general, in parks. I would love so much for one of the local parks to have a S&S or Vekoma family inverted.

As fun as it is to have an RMC, having a bigger GCI would be fantastic. It's fun having Apollo, I-305, but is there something wrong with having a just a solid fun steel coaster. Instead we got a floorless and a dive machine. We got a nice collection of launched coasters in the area. But there's just so much around here that I love, but I still go "But yea it would also be nice to have..."

 

[Coaster Takes]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

There’s an easy middle ground. Both types of attractions reel in around the same amount of people from each demographic.

Spring: During this time, families hoard the park. This is where family coasters thrive. Rides like InvadR and Verbolten usually get much longer lines than Apollo, Alpengeist, etc. The reason for this is school. Higher graded students are usually busy focusing on their studies instead of paying 80 bucks to go to a park. Families with smaller children that are barely tall enough to ride Verbolten usually come on the Spring weekends due to the imaginative and excited minds of their children. They don’t have to focus on getting an A on their test the following week. Adults usually have weekends off as well.


Summer: This is the “turf war”. Summer break has started. Both demographics each control half of the ages of people coming to the park. Families love the summer time for parks, but so do the teenagers. Family coasters and larger coasters both have large lines. It’s an equal “battlefield”. The higher tiered coasters are getting more attention in the summer than the spring. School is out. Parents can easily drop their kids off at the park before work starts. Teenagers can drive themselves to the park. Every coaster gets an equal portion of the cake.


Autumn: The big bois’ time to shine. HoS is aimed towards the teen and young adult demographic. The family coasters get shorter lines than usual. The intense coasters get larger lines than the spring and summer. Teens want to get on the biggest and baddest coasters before the houses open. They’re not going to waste their time on smaller attractions. As a teenager, I would rather ride griffon than InvadR if lines are long and I’m on a time crunch. It’s just how our minds our wired.


(Excluding Winter for obvious reasons).


Family and intense coasters alike reel in around the same amount of people. Parks that don’t have haunt events like Dollywood have more family coasters than intense coasters because they don’t have an event that draws in tons of people that focus more on the larger rides. It’s business practice. Companies take a look at past fiscal years to see which times of the year draw in more income when they add an attraction aimed at a specific demographic. Both sides of the story are true in their own ways. But in reality both levels of coasters are equally beneficial. (Unless you’re Dollywood).

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Eh, the reason I disagree with some of that is you can go to a place like Hersheypark and their thrill rides are busy in the spring, everything in the summer, and even in the fall.

Your talking about normal park traffic anyways. I've had plenty of days in the spring where I went to Verbolten and Nessie and it was basically walk on (I don't want to make InvadR statements year because last year was year 1 and it was going to be busy regardless). But I did have times that Apollow/Griff were a decent wait. I've also experienced the flip.

I've had times in the summer where Griff/Apollo is walkon and Bolt/Nessie were long waits. As well as the flip there.

I would say time of day/day of week plays more into it than the season of the year. As well as weather. I've found you are more likely to see teens on their own on weekdays, with not perfect weather, later in the day. I found more families on perfect days, Thursday-Sunday, earlier in the day.

I tend to toss out Haunt seasons. Pulls wildly different demographics than the season. Example: I got a co-worker that hates amusement parks but he goes a ton because he loves stuff like that. I don't go because I'm not a fan of being scared like that. The mazes and houses are the main draw in that time. It's like having Invadr and other coasters going at Christmas town. You aren't going for that, but it's nice to be open.

 

[SLC Headache]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I can get the part where there's a want for more thrilling and bigger thrills.  It's what drives us enthusiasts. Unfortunately we're not at the core of the industry.  Families are.  Families that can have everything from 4-5 year olds to 16-18 year olds.  That's a large swath to appease.  So making sure that mid area is filled out is important IMO and good quality midlevel thrills is what's missing, in general, in parks.  I would love so much for one of the local parks to have a S&S or Vekoma family inverted.

As fun as it is to have an RMC, having a bigger GCI would be fantastic.  It's fun having Apollo, I-305, but is there something wrong with having a just a solid fun steel coaster.  Instead we got a floorless and a dive machine.  We got a nice collection of launched coasters in the area.  But there's just so much around here that I love, but I still go "But yea it would also be nice to have..."

I would argue we need a return of the low-intensity coaster. With the preschool passes growing in popularity, it's really important that parks have a good selection for the under 48" crowd they will be pulling. Even older siblings might not be tall enough yet.

Yesterday's "thrill/extreme" coaster is today's "family" coaster, and there seems to be no middle ground between the kiddie coasters and this more aggressive breed of "family" coaster. Gravity Group junior woodie, S&S Steeplechase, and Vekoma Family Suspended are the only things I can think of that would fit (unless it's a launch as tame as Firechaser Express or Pony Express).

 

[Zachary]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

With the preschool passes growing in popularity, it's really important that parks have a good selection for the under 48" crowd they will be pulling.

*screeching brake noise*

But the preschool pass is free. Why invest heavily in a demographic that doesn't even pay admission?

I understand the purported calculus that supposedly justifies the financials behind the preschool pass (though, full disclosure, I staunchly oppose it regardless). With that said, alienating swaths of people who do pay admission by repeatedly investing heavily in a relatively small demographic simply can't be right.

Day to day inside BGW, the majority of people in the park are over 48" and over 5 years old—meaning that most of them paid admission, presumably with the intention of experiencing attractions aimed towards people in their age range. If the park repeatedly does not provide new experiences for the demographics these people belong to, they will take their admission money and go elsewhere.

 

[Coaster Takes]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Hence why it’s time for the park to invest into their next huge intense rollercoaster. Tempesto surely didn’t do much. InvadR made the families happy. It’s time for the next big boi.

 

[Shane]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I am curious if BGW ever really intended on filling the gap of the 42in roller coaster vacated by BBW. I'd often heard that Verbolten and Invadr were meant to fill those gaps but ended up being more intense than they expected therefore the higher height requirement, but really, with the design and engineering that goes into these things, I would think they would have to know that they are building at 48in ride when the setout to do it.

If the park does indeed need to fill that 42in gap that they keep missing, then yes, I think a Fire Chaser or Vekoma/B&M family invert is the answer which if designed correctly could really end up being a fantastic for all ages ride. All that being said, after two attempts at a family coaster it's time for the huge Griffin or Apollo style installation.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I am curious if BGW ever really intended on filling the gap of the 42in roller coaster vacated by BBW. I'd often heard that Verbolten and Invadr were meant to fill those gaps but ended up being more intense than they expected therefore the higher height requirement, but really, with the design and engineering that goes into these things, I would think they would have to know that they are building at 48in ride when the setout to do it.

If the park does indeed need to fill that 42in gap that they keep missing, then yes, I think a Fire Chaser or Vekoma/B&M family invert is the answer which if designed correctly could really end up being a fantastic for all ages ride. All that being said, after two attempts at a family coaster it's time for the huge Griffin or Apollo style installation.

I think there's a time and way to do it, and this isn't the time. I agree that the 42 inch type ride is what's really needed. I also agree that after two attempts to fill that void of a family coaster that it's time to build something on the thrilling side.

I would like to think that with Bolt and Invadr that they sent out to a couple places "Here's what we're looking for, here's how much, send us a proposal" and Bolt and Invadr won out because those were just the best offerings to come back. I doubt that they would expect it to be a lower height requirement and got surprised with a higher one.

I would hope that they do the following:
Build the bigger more thrilling coaster first. As a balance, in that same Hamlet (if this does include a new hamlet) build the family coaster. Avoid any prefabs like a Wild Mouse, Chance Big Dipper, or something new like the Steeplechase. Don't do a "Lil [blank]" that's a mockery of the real thing.

Give us a unique, family suspended, mine train, mack spinner, or gerstlauer.

But I will say there might be 1 reason they've forgone the 42" coasters: They might no just see the need for one right now. I disagree if that's how they feel. The reason I'm so big on balance in a park is if Dad and Oldest 2 sons go on Griffon, where's Mom and the youngest going? THere's no close by ride for them to go on right now, and it's really what BGW is missing. Maybe put something where the encounters and pavilions were. Doesn't have to be a coaster, but something.

 

[Thomas]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Darkastle had a 42 inch height requirement...

 

[Peej1212]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I am curious if BGW ever really intended on filling the gap of the 42in roller coaster vacated by BBW. I'd often heard that Verbolten and Invadr were meant to fill those gaps but ended up being more intense than they expected therefore the higher height requirement, but really, with the design and engineering that goes into these things, I would think they would have to know that they are building at 48in ride when the setout to do it.

If the park does indeed need to fill that 42in gap that they keep missing, then yes, I think a Fire Chaser or Vekoma/B&M family invert is the answer which if designed correctly could really end up being a fantastic for all ages ride. All that being said, after two attempts at a family coaster it's time for the huge Griffin or Apollo style installation.

I think there's a time and way to do it, and this isn't the time.  I agree that the 42 inch type ride is what's really needed.  I also agree that after two attempts to fill that void of a family coaster that it's time to build something on the thrilling side.

I would like to think that with Bolt and Invadr that they sent out to a couple places "Here's what we're looking for, here's how much, send us a proposal" and Bolt and Invadr won out because those were just the best offerings to come back.  I doubt that they would expect it to be a lower height requirement and got surprised with a higher one.

I would hope that they do the following:
Build the bigger more thrilling coaster first.  As a balance, in that same Hamlet (if this does include a new hamlet) build the family coaster.  Avoid any prefabs like a Wild Mouse, Chance Big Dipper, or something new like the Steeplechase.  Don't do a "Lil [blank]" that's a mockery of the real thing.

Give us a unique, family suspended, mine train, mack spinner, or gerstlauer.  

But I will say there might be 1 reason they've forgone the 42" coasters: They might no just see the need for one right now.  I disagree if that's how they feel.  The reason I'm so big on balance in a park is if Dad and Oldest 2 sons go on Griffon, where's Mom and the youngest going?  THere's no close by ride for them to go on right now, and it's really what BGW is missing.  Maybe put something where the encounters and pavilions were.  Doesn't have to be a coaster, but something.

I totally agree with this statement. May not have to be a coaster but something ....

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

With the preschool passes growing in popularity, it's really important that parks have a good selection for the under 48" crowd they will be pulling.

*screeching brake noise*

But the preschool pass is free. Why invest heavily in a demographic that doesn't even pay admission?

I understand the purported calculus that supposedly justifies the financials behind the preschool pass (though, full disclosure, I staunchly oppose it regardless). With that said, alienating swaths of people who do pay admission by repeatedly investing heavily in a relatively small demographic simply can't be right.

Day to day inside BGW, the majority of people in the park are over 48" and over 5 years old—meaning that most of them paid admission, presumably with the intention of experiencing attractions aimed towards people in their age range. If the park repeatedly does not provide new experiences for the demographics these people belong to, they will take their admission money and go elsewhere.

While I said things about adding some stuff I very much agree with this. You do it without going overboard. Without pandering.

You are right IMO that those pre-school passes are a smaller demographic; and overdoing too much for them can really hurt. I just can see a situation of the backlash for doing something like KD last year. The core customers for parks don't love when you go overboard on the smallest [likely] demographic in the park. I do wish the kids area for BGW were slightly larger.

You only need so many sub-48" rides, but they should be spread out some. You also need a good mix of 52" and 54"+ rides. Using their map online, BGW has 4 rides that are 52"+ height requirements. There's 14 (soon to be 15 with BfE) rides 42"-48" min height. 7 if you take away the 48" min requirement. IMO that's clear to show that there is plenty to do in those height requirements and it's not an area BGW needs to be focused on right away.

 

[SLC Headache]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Right, forgive my lapse of reasoning. I tend not to notice flat rides.

I now realized, though: Along with the lack of gentle coasters, BGW also lacks intense flats. Mach Tower is a giant dud, and they have nothing to compare to KD's Crypt or Delirium.

 

[Nicole]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

But I will say there might be 1 reason they've forgone the 42" coasters: They might no just see the need for one right now.  I disagree if that's how they feel.  The reason I'm so big on balance in a park is if Dad and Oldest 2 sons go on Griffon, where's Mom and the youngest going?  THere's no close by ride for them to go on right now, and it's really what BGW is missing.  Maybe put something where the encounters and pavilions were.  Doesn't have to be a coaster, but something.

Wait, why doesn't Mom get to go on Griffon?

 

[mrsdecember]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Wait, why doesn't Mom get to go on Griffon?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Wait, why doesn't Mom get to go on Griffon?

Mom can certainly go! I just always think of my family where my mom doesn't do roller coasters thanks to her back injuries and inner ear troubles.