Project 2022: Pantheon
- Thread starter Shane
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You joke but if it was a thing I think every enthusiast around the world would make a trip just for that. Can we all appreciate how terrifying it would be to be whipped around one of those turns 400 feet in the air
I think the leading speculation is practically anything that, while perhaps consistent with the information gathered, expands far beyond what little information we do have on the attraction.
Or I think it is a giga coaster.
Take your pick.
Honestly, the big problem we have right now is that Project Madrid, at least as we previously knew it, seems to have stagnated.
It's really hard to know if Project Madrid, in its current form, looks anything like Project Madrid did over a year ago when the original documents were first filed. Frankly, we don't even know if there is a current iteration of Project Madrid.
I'd love to tell everyone that we're still hearing indicators that Project Madrid is coming in 2019, but, in truth, the birdies have been silent on anything and everything Project Madrid. Hell, all the buzz we were hearing around WCUSA for 2019 has been simmering out as well.
Why? I think we're seeing a huge shift in SEAS's approach to attraction additions.
Example? Out of the blue today we learned that SeaWorld San Diego is getting a SkyWarp next year. A compact, off-the-shelf coaster for SeaWorld San Diego just a year after they added a SkyRocket II (another compact, off-the-shelf coaster)? That would have NEVER happened just a couple years ago.
Who knows what this new "quantity over quality" approach to attraction additions across the chain is going to do to the major rides that were once planned for the various SEAS parks (like, say, Project Madrid or BGT's Gwazi replacement project).
It's really hard to know if Project Madrid, in its current form, looks anything like Project Madrid did over a year ago when the original documents were first filed. Frankly, we don't even know if there is a current iteration of Project Madrid.
I'd love to tell everyone that we're still hearing indicators that Project Madrid is coming in 2019, but, in truth, the birdies have been silent on anything and everything Project Madrid. Hell, all the buzz we were hearing around WCUSA for 2019 has been simmering out as well.
Why? I think we're seeing a huge shift in SEAS's approach to attraction additions.
Example? Out of the blue today we learned that SeaWorld San Diego is getting a SkyWarp next year. A compact, off-the-shelf coaster for SeaWorld San Diego just a year after they added a SkyRocket II (another compact, off-the-shelf coaster)? That would have NEVER happened just a couple years ago.
Who knows what this new "quantity over quality" approach to attraction additions across the chain is going to do to the major rides that were once planned for the various SEAS parks (like, say, Project Madrid or BGT's Gwazi replacement project).
The difference is that SWSD is a much less valuable asset for SeaWorld. BGW is a major destination park that has justification for larger investments. Maybe not a giga but a large new coaster is worth investing at a park like that vs a merely local park like SWSD. You may even see it with them getting a much larger and more expensive flat ride like a 40-passenger Screamin Swing.
Yes, but previously it was unheard of for SEAS parks to open a new attraction each year. The last couple years this has changed dramatically. Almost every park has been getting small, cheap additions instead of the chain devoting the majority of their funds to just one major (and often one minor) attraction.
I simply don't believe SEAS has the money to add small attractions all over the country and build a large, flagship attraction at the parks that are due for them (read: the Busch parks).
Hopefully SEAS will prove me wrong.
Eh you’re confusing cheap with off the shelf. BG got a Skyrocket yes but besides that they did get an extensively themed woodie and a VR show, and now possibly a well themed giant swing ride.
Also it’s possible that they are saving up for adding a major attraction somewhere. They did just recently add Mako.
Reportedly SEAS bought three SkyRocket IIs—almost certainly at a hefty discount. Intamin almost certainly gave SeaWorld Orlando a nice discount on their prototype rapids ride too (especially given Intamin's history with water rides). Plus, lets not forget that BGT built a prototype Mack spinner. Discounts for products that haven't been previously built (and, hence, tested) are a real thing in this industry.
As for InvadR, I assure you that it was very cheap. Battle for Eire wasn't an expensive undertaking either (especially post-budget-cuts).
Assuming the Screamin' Swing happens, I'd bet good money that SEAS isn't paying full price for that ride either. S&S is almost certainly giving good deals to parks willing to take a chance on their products (see: Playland's Castaway Cove, Dutch Wonderland, and Kennywood) in an effort to reestablish their reputation in the US. Frankly, after their performance at Castaway Cove and Dutch Wonderland, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Kennywood and BGW are getting even steeper discounts...
As for InvadR, I assure you that it was very cheap. Battle for Eire wasn't an expensive undertaking either (especially post-budget-cuts).
Assuming the Screamin' Swing happens, I'd bet good money that SEAS isn't paying full price for that ride either. S&S is almost certainly giving good deals to parks willing to take a chance on their products (see: Playland's Castaway Cove, Dutch Wonderland, and Kennywood) in an effort to reestablish their reputation in the US. Frankly, after their performance at Castaway Cove and Dutch Wonderland, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Kennywood and BGW are getting even steeper discounts...
Still the fact that they did recently get Mako and CC means they are still willing to build major attractions at their parks.
How do additions from a few years ago demonstrate the trajectory of future investments? We know they are having financial difficulties and recently announced a change in direction:
“We’ve studied our competitors a great deal and we found that they’ve been able to open a lot more attractions acoss their portfolio with more frequency than we have the last few years. We’re looking at all our parks, and we want to get to a place where we have a major or minor attraction every year, and we haven’t historically done that every year in every market.
“We’ve had more of a concentration strategy where the spend is higher and there’s less frequency on the major attractions. The result is some markets have had fewer attractions or years off. More frequency across the markets would produce better results.”
“We’ve studied our competitors a great deal and we found that they’ve been able to open a lot more attractions acoss their portfolio with more frequency than we have the last few years. We’re looking at all our parks, and we want to get to a place where we have a major or minor attraction every year, and we haven’t historically done that every year in every market.
“We’ve had more of a concentration strategy where the spend is higher and there’s less frequency on the major attractions. The result is some markets have had fewer attractions or years off. More frequency across the markets would produce better results.”
That sounds vaguely similar to that weird leaked concept Six Flags Magic Mountain had for Superman: Escape from Krypton.
Hmm, maybe that's why the SkyWarp is going to San Diego - the one in the north of the state isn't even up yet last I checked?
And now I'm worried. It sounds like Six Flags has had success with quantity rides, while Cedar Fair hasn't had success with quality rides. Granted, BGW and especially BGT could use flats at the moment.
Even though we all really want to see Project Madrid come to fruition, from a business standpoint it really isn't what BGW needs. They just need something each year to lure guests in, something new and flashy. BGW and KD are always flip flopping control of the Eastern VA / DC area and they just need to give people who aren't in love with the park a reason to come back. We all love BGW and will always go back regardless (unless something drastic occurs) so I am pretty sure SEAS recognizes they just need to rope in that general market that needs a reason to come.
I wouldn't be surprised at all, honestly I almost see it as more likely at this point, if we don't see headway made on Madrid for a long, long time.
In an ideal world, SeaWorld parks wouldn't be dragging down the Busch Gardens name, since the two Busch Gardens parks do fine, boasting similar numbers as they always have (since the AB sale) while SeaWorld parks continue to dive bomb (except for '18 Q1 numbers showing some hope). Maybe someday soon we will see the separation.
I wouldn't be surprised at all, honestly I almost see it as more likely at this point, if we don't see headway made on Madrid for a long, long time.
In an ideal world, SeaWorld parks wouldn't be dragging down the Busch Gardens name, since the two Busch Gardens parks do fine, boasting similar numbers as they always have (since the AB sale) while SeaWorld parks continue to dive bomb (except for '18 Q1 numbers showing some hope). Maybe someday soon we will see the separation.
So with it sounding like Madrid is shelved for the time being, I got to say I don't mind it.
Because in reality it's being shelved because they want to make a major commitment to improving all their parks, not just one at a time. And this is what I've talked about in every thread on the SEAS finances. They would be far better served taking that annual ride improvement budget and trying to evenly distribute it throughout the chain. And that's the smart thing to do. Keeps all the parks fresh, keeps money coming in to all of them, keeps them all in the news cycle.
Where I disagree (I don't know who with) is that for them it would be smart to rotate the 1 'major' investment around the park while still investing a small amount in the other parks. Like looking like we're going to get a SkyRocket II at BGT, S&S Screaming swing at BGW, this new ride at SWSD all in one year (Could we addin in Infinity Falls? Do we even know when this is opening). For the health of the chain this is better. Instead of a single park getting all the attention, you go park wide attention along with a headliner.
And I want to echo @Zachary 's comment about discount rides. Its so spot on. Hershey looks like it continually prints money because of their ability to continually add major attractions. But look at so many of them. Wildcat was GCI's 1st project. Stormrunner was the first Intamin launch with inverts. Fahrenheit was the first vertical lift. Skyrush was a first. So many of their major investments have a first, and it's not because they want these firsts, but rather because it makes the attraction that much more affordable.
For example, ordering 3 Skyrocket II's for a discount was brilliant. That's not enough of an investment for a single park to have an impact. But getting 3, spreading them out around the country for the different markets, and having a discount from doing it this way is amazing. Hopefully the uppers at SEAS will be smart like this in the future. Some one off's where the park gets a discount can really pay off, because it really draws interest to your park. Maybe if what SWSD is getting they'll be doing another multi-order. Something that's not big, but is a good investment for the overall health of the park.
EDIT:
I didn't want to double post so I want to add this $0.02 on the park/coaster enthusiast community. Yes I'm part of it. Yes bigger, better, faster is always more fun. But sometimes with this community there's this anger over not getting the biggest, best, fastest coaster of the year or in general. Parks don't thrive on that. Parks thrive on balance.
BGW as it is (IMO) has 3 world class coasters (Apollo, Griffin, Nessie). It's also got 2 great coasters (Alpie, InvadR). Even it's 'dud' is a ride that most parks would want to have (Bolt). Tempesto is the boomerang clone of the 21st century. That's a great lineup and I know I've said it before. I know of a few parks that would kill for that grouping. Especially an Arrow that's stood the test of time and is still a great ride.
If Project Madrid as originally developed falls through of course it's sad. But it's not that sad. BGW is (IMO) putting some focus where it needs to be.
If the park and it's leadership let me have a vote, and the choices were:
Project Madrid
OR
BfE, S&S Screaming Swing, DK redevelopment, and (?) a Le Mans reintroduction
Give me the latter. 4 good years of attractions over the course of 4 years rather than 1 big attraction. Over those 4 years those 4 rides would bring people back year after year. Think of the way some enthusiasts approach visiting parks....they won't do it unless there's something new that warrants a visit. If you only did 1 major attraction in 4 years you aren't giving them a reason to be there every year. Press will come for a new ride, but that's 1 time you get free marketing over 4 years. Where if you did something like that each year you give a reason to have people in your park that will give great word of mouth advertising for you.
Word of mouth advertising is some of the best you can get. Think about it. Do you go to somewhere new because of an ad on TV, or because your friend was at the place and told you about it? Especially if they had a good experience.
Sorry rant over, but this flew through my mind while I was walking my pup.
If Madrid came at the expense of having 4 years of development I'll take it.
Because in reality it's being shelved because they want to make a major commitment to improving all their parks, not just one at a time. And this is what I've talked about in every thread on the SEAS finances. They would be far better served taking that annual ride improvement budget and trying to evenly distribute it throughout the chain. And that's the smart thing to do. Keeps all the parks fresh, keeps money coming in to all of them, keeps them all in the news cycle.
Where I disagree (I don't know who with) is that for them it would be smart to rotate the 1 'major' investment around the park while still investing a small amount in the other parks. Like looking like we're going to get a SkyRocket II at BGT, S&S Screaming swing at BGW, this new ride at SWSD all in one year (Could we addin in Infinity Falls? Do we even know when this is opening). For the health of the chain this is better. Instead of a single park getting all the attention, you go park wide attention along with a headliner.
And I want to echo @Zachary 's comment about discount rides. Its so spot on. Hershey looks like it continually prints money because of their ability to continually add major attractions. But look at so many of them. Wildcat was GCI's 1st project. Stormrunner was the first Intamin launch with inverts. Fahrenheit was the first vertical lift. Skyrush was a first. So many of their major investments have a first, and it's not because they want these firsts, but rather because it makes the attraction that much more affordable.
For example, ordering 3 Skyrocket II's for a discount was brilliant. That's not enough of an investment for a single park to have an impact. But getting 3, spreading them out around the country for the different markets, and having a discount from doing it this way is amazing. Hopefully the uppers at SEAS will be smart like this in the future. Some one off's where the park gets a discount can really pay off, because it really draws interest to your park. Maybe if what SWSD is getting they'll be doing another multi-order. Something that's not big, but is a good investment for the overall health of the park.
EDIT:
I didn't want to double post so I want to add this $0.02 on the park/coaster enthusiast community. Yes I'm part of it. Yes bigger, better, faster is always more fun. But sometimes with this community there's this anger over not getting the biggest, best, fastest coaster of the year or in general. Parks don't thrive on that. Parks thrive on balance.
BGW as it is (IMO) has 3 world class coasters (Apollo, Griffin, Nessie). It's also got 2 great coasters (Alpie, InvadR). Even it's 'dud' is a ride that most parks would want to have (Bolt). Tempesto is the boomerang clone of the 21st century. That's a great lineup and I know I've said it before. I know of a few parks that would kill for that grouping. Especially an Arrow that's stood the test of time and is still a great ride.
If Project Madrid as originally developed falls through of course it's sad. But it's not that sad. BGW is (IMO) putting some focus where it needs to be.
If the park and it's leadership let me have a vote, and the choices were:
Project Madrid
OR
BfE, S&S Screaming Swing, DK redevelopment, and (?) a Le Mans reintroduction
Give me the latter. 4 good years of attractions over the course of 4 years rather than 1 big attraction. Over those 4 years those 4 rides would bring people back year after year. Think of the way some enthusiasts approach visiting parks....they won't do it unless there's something new that warrants a visit. If you only did 1 major attraction in 4 years you aren't giving them a reason to be there every year. Press will come for a new ride, but that's 1 time you get free marketing over 4 years. Where if you did something like that each year you give a reason to have people in your park that will give great word of mouth advertising for you.
Word of mouth advertising is some of the best you can get. Think about it. Do you go to somewhere new because of an ad on TV, or because your friend was at the place and told you about it? Especially if they had a good experience.
Sorry rant over, but this flew through my mind while I was walking my pup.
If Madrid came at the expense of having 4 years of development I'll take it.
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While I don’t have insiders I will say I don’t think there’s much reason to fret over Project Madrid currently, it is or was expected to be a 2020 thing and since it’s july 2018 it doesn’t surprise me there’s been no developments recently. I’ll just play the waiting game for now with it in the mean time the immediate future has arguably my favorite flat ride being built.
Too many good points above to quote or reference, but I think the ones above notably by @Zachary & @warfelg are spot on as far as what SEAS should probably do, what they probably are doing, and how that relates to the attraction. I'd also further expand on the quantity versus quality reference, insofar as it relates to an individual park's inventory: Maximize quantity of additions SEAS-wide to keep things fresh at each gate year-over-year, but maintain the total quantity at each park relatively stable.
I will not profess to have any detailed knowledge of theme park economics (nor do I care to pore over public documents since I'm not looking to invest in them), but most any business is going to try to minimize CapEx while maximizing its ROI while keeping what is probably the real bottom line killer--OpEx, in this case, ride ops, etc., relatively flat. Especially at a largely seasonal park like BGW. I even see the Mouse do this in the Orlando market... Park chains are going to buy in bulk and leverage hungry bidders to reduce CapEx, spread that out to maintain buzz and maximize return, and many parks will close rides when adding new ones to manage OpEx. Locally, I think Hershey and Dollywood are expanding more rapidly, but BGW surely isn't. (My hat's off to the point of jealousy to both of them for what they're doing in a similar market).
Which brings us to Madrid. First, the "it's a giga" theory isn't really that consistent with the points raised above. Not that it means it can't or won't happen, it's just going to be timed and balanced with the needs of the overall business very carefully--which may or may not be in <insert year> (and recall, they can request to extend the approval timeframes or outright punt). Second, and I preface this by strongly noting that nothing in the information we have supports any of this, despite it being a desire and common point of speculation, BUT, if, hypothetically, it is a giga somewheres out in Festa Field and/or Drachen/Bavaria-land... that is a big investment standing by itself and it actually would make complete sense to plan a real "Madrid" hamlet expansion over a period of time. And all of that would represent a more deliberate expansion strategy for BGW itself, maybe to keep pace with those two neighbors, and that really would require considerable planning and commitment by SEAS. Plus, recall SEAS is already on the hook for other true expansions, notably the Sesame parks. That's a lot. Perhaps they time both major investments together and really double down on Williamsburg? Or perhaps, as I fear, they do a Sesame on the cheap by mostly repurposing FoF to check the box and forgo Madrid.
Time, and the economy, will tell...
I will not profess to have any detailed knowledge of theme park economics (nor do I care to pore over public documents since I'm not looking to invest in them), but most any business is going to try to minimize CapEx while maximizing its ROI while keeping what is probably the real bottom line killer--OpEx, in this case, ride ops, etc., relatively flat. Especially at a largely seasonal park like BGW. I even see the Mouse do this in the Orlando market... Park chains are going to buy in bulk and leverage hungry bidders to reduce CapEx, spread that out to maintain buzz and maximize return, and many parks will close rides when adding new ones to manage OpEx. Locally, I think Hershey and Dollywood are expanding more rapidly, but BGW surely isn't. (My hat's off to the point of jealousy to both of them for what they're doing in a similar market).
Which brings us to Madrid. First, the "it's a giga" theory isn't really that consistent with the points raised above. Not that it means it can't or won't happen, it's just going to be timed and balanced with the needs of the overall business very carefully--which may or may not be in <insert year> (and recall, they can request to extend the approval timeframes or outright punt). Second, and I preface this by strongly noting that nothing in the information we have supports any of this, despite it being a desire and common point of speculation, BUT, if, hypothetically, it is a giga somewheres out in Festa Field and/or Drachen/Bavaria-land... that is a big investment standing by itself and it actually would make complete sense to plan a real "Madrid" hamlet expansion over a period of time. And all of that would represent a more deliberate expansion strategy for BGW itself, maybe to keep pace with those two neighbors, and that really would require considerable planning and commitment by SEAS. Plus, recall SEAS is already on the hook for other true expansions, notably the Sesame parks. That's a lot. Perhaps they time both major investments together and really double down on Williamsburg? Or perhaps, as I fear, they do a Sesame on the cheap by mostly repurposing FoF to check the box and forgo Madrid.
Time, and the economy, will tell...
Part of me wonders if they’re looking at something like Cobra’s Curse or Time Traveler, ie a more thrilling family coaster, if the whole mega coaster thing is out. Verbolten is very popular with the GP after all.
Albeit they definitely won’t spend $35+ million on it like Verbolten but something like those two I could see.
Albeit they definitely won’t spend $35+ million on it like Verbolten but something like those two I could see.
As for Project Madrid being put on hold, I have heard from my sources that work with James City County that that is indeed the case and that the project has been put on hold for the time being.
Y'all are in for a treat... Can confirm myself ?
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