Project 2021/Drachen Spire: Intamin Multi-Launch Shuttle Giga Coaster [Cancelled]

tursiops · May 16, 2019

warfelg said:
Like I pointed out in the KCSA v Dominion case, Dominion is being sued because power lines across the river 'ruined their view'

I'll actually take their side on this one. Many groups were against those lines and they weren't pre-established like the park. Also how would anyone else feel when you buy a million+ house for that view then they build those ugly lines.

Jonesta6 · May 16, 2019

I wonder what the investment strategy is more focused on - conquest, retention, or new guests?

If it was conquest, then that's where we're more likely to see some big bad-ass ride (coaster or otherwise) to one-up what other parks have to offer. I don't see this as big of a concern at the moment, but then again I don't have their data in front of me neither.

Retention could mean more of sprucing up existing parts, whether that be rides, theming, shows, culinary, etc. You'd probably also see incremental additions, maybe a few new smaller rides that increases value to existing guests. It seems maybe the last year or two had tended to head this direction but not fully there.

New guests may also have a big ride, but I'd think that the ride alone won't be what gets people to stop in as much as a new experience. So if this is the goal, the question turns into what is the new experience?

GrandpaD · May 16, 2019

BGWnut said:
I'm not seeing how 4 out of the 5 Gigas built being in the top 12 means they are just stat additions and that enthusiasts don't care about them.

But they aren't running the park, nor making new additions, solely for "enthusiasts". They are trying to create a balance that attracts all, not just a single demographic. That's not too say that this isn't a " higher, faster" coaster. The big question is has BGW changed its overall positioning from being more family oriented to a "thrill park".

Jahrules · May 16, 2019

Jonesta6 said:
I wonder what the investment strategy is more focused on - conquest, retention, or new guests?

If it was conquest, then that's where we're more likely to see some big bad-ass ride (coaster or otherwise) to one-up what other parks have to offer. I don't see this as big of a concern at the moment, but then again I don't have their data in front of me neither.

Retention could mean more of sprucing up existing parts, whether that be rides, theming, shows, culinary, etc. You'd probably also see incremental additions, maybe a few new smaller rides that increases value to existing guests. It seems maybe the last year or two had tended to head this direction but not fully there.

New guests may also have a big ride, but I'd think that the ride alone won't be what gets people to stop in as much as a new experience. So if this is the goal, the question turns into what is the new experience?

I don't think there's just one answer to this question.

Looking at their marketing and and what both they and their corporate parents SEAS are saying; they are focusing on "giving members a reason to keep coming back" and also "attract new visitors". So they will be wanting to add attractions and experiences for every target market.

BGWnut · May 16, 2019

GrandpaD said:
But they aren't running the park, nor making new additions, solely for "enthusiasts". They are trying to create a balance that attracts all, not just a single demographic. That's not too say that this isn't a " higher, faster" coaster. The big question is has BGW changed its overall positioning from being more family oriented to a "thrill park".

I don't disagree with you. And that wasn't my point. He was claiming that enthusiasts will tell you that Giga coasters aren't world class attractionsn and basically just allow the park to claim a bunch of stats. My point was that Gigas are considered world class attractions and are clearly more than just stat additions to the parks that built them. BGW building one would not be to just cater to enthusiasts. Personally I think that it would help to solidify the park as an all around destination that when visiting you don't need to go anywhere else to experience different rides.

Jahrules · May 16, 2019

GrandpaD said:
But they aren't running the park, nor making new additions, solely for "enthusiasts". They are trying to create a balance that attracts all, not just a single demographic. That's not too say that this isn't a " higher, faster" coaster. The big question is has BGW changed its overall positioning from being more family oriented to a "thrill park".

Honestly speaking... "Enthusiasts" are probably the lowest priority on any parks priority list. You literally need to spend $0 on marketing for enthusiasts. You build a new coaster; especially one with unique elements and enthusiasts will come. No need to make directed advertising or spend any money on the enthusiast demographic because they are already hyper aware of all new ride construction.

It is also the most fickle group. An enthusiast might be willing to drive 48 hours from California to check out a brand new awesome coaster; but they won't come back next year to ride the same coaster unless the park has another new exciting ride. Their budget will instead go to whoever made the most badass ride next year. So making something just for enthusiasts is not a wise long term investment strategy.

Make what makes sense for your target demographics and enthusiasts will naturally come around when new attractions interest them

BGWnut · May 16, 2019

Jonesta6 said:
I wonder what the investment strategy is more focused on - conquest, retention, or new guests?

If it was conquest, then that's where we're more likely to see some big bad-ass ride (coaster or otherwise) to one-up what other parks have to offer. I don't see this as big of a concern at the moment, but then again I don't have their data in front of me neither.

Retention could mean more of sprucing up existing parts, whether that be rides, theming, shows, culinary, etc. You'd probably also see incremental additions, maybe a few new smaller rides that increases value to existing guests. It seems maybe the last year or two had tended to head this direction but not fully there.

New guests may also have a big ride, but I'd think that the ride alone won't be what gets people to stop in as much as a new experience. So if this is the goal, the question turns into what is the new experience?

Jahrules said:
I don't think there's just one answer to this question.

Looking at their marketing and and what both they and their corporate parents SEAS are saying; they are focusing on "giving members a reason to keep coming back" and also "attract new visitors". So they will be wanting to add attractions and experiences for every target market.

Honestly I think it's a combination of all 3. They are attempting to steal tourists from other parks. They are also attempting to keep one coming back year after year. And finally they want to convince local people who have never been it only been to KD to also come to BGW.

A big attraction can accomplish all 3. Probably who return every year are interested in seeing the new addition. Tourists looking for a trip see a big new ride and see much more interested in visiting. And locals who have never come might be enticed by a new ride.

There is a reason why SEAS wants to add a new attraction, event or show each year. All 3 groups you described above are likely to be interested in what's new. They vary what's one so they can appeal to different demographics. A new ride will appeal to a lot of people and an event would appeal to a portion of the same people plus some others that a ride might not appeal to.

---------------------- · May 16, 2019

BGWnut said:
Six Flags Fiesta Texas and Six Flags over Texas actually have two rides that are clones of each other. At Fiesta Texas they have an S&S freespin called Batman: The Ride and over Texas has a clone called The Joker. Fiesta Texas then has a B&M inverted banned Goliath that has a clone at Over Texas called Batman: The ride.

That said those parks are over 5 hours away from each other and are owned by the same company so they likely don't care as much about differentiation. It's been discussed on this forum before but BGW wouldn't preclude itself from building something just because KD already has one. They would however look to differentiate between the two so it doesn't appear to be the same ride. Which is why GrandpaD had such a great point about maybe elements from the Walibi Belgium coaster could be used in this ride to differentiate it.

SEAS has determined that they need to shift and focus on rides and attractions in the short term in order to be competitive and attract people. I believe when they say it is a critical decision it references this. SEAS feels they need this to be competitive and to draw people in.

I could also see it being option C where there is a larger expansion and SEAS is trying to make Williamsburg a much bigger deal and bring in more tourists/keep them occupied longer.

Basically with tourists in the area BGW is trying to convince them to stay an extra day instead of going to KD if their primary destination is Williamsburg or VA beach. If their going to KD/Richmond or DC the idea is to convince them that they need to use a day to go to BGW over spending another day at KD. Building SPW and some more attractions would enable them to do that more effectively. The same is also true in reverse for KD. They want to convince people who are visiting BGW that they need to take at least a day of their trip to come visit KD or that people who are already at KD don't need to visit BGW.

? I don’t wanna argue but the drive is under four hours, I made it last Friday, and the reason I mentioned Batman clones is because both swsa and sfft have one within about 5 miles of each other.

Regardless, I don’t think if we get a Intamin Giga it will be like i305. That ride is one of a kind and not a huge hit with the gp as many have said. More likely would be something like expedition g force or superman sfne. Maybe even a ride like the accelerators at knotts or Hershey with the launch, top hat like element, and a massive drop.

Now there are tons of options some of which line up with the rest of the rides at(and coming to) the park, so in my opinion, to say that Intamin can’t build a ride for the park over 300ft, or even to say it’s unlikely, is straight bollocks.

Just imagine if someone said that a park wouldn’t get an rmc because the park next door has one. Or if we said bgw won’t build an ice rink for Christmas town because kd has one. Why not make your own version of a competitors product and do it better? Especially if you know that the other version is successful.

GrandpaD · May 16, 2019

I dunno. Something's rotten in Denmark (or Switzerland, as the Intamin case may be). I see the great analysis by @kingadam and can't really dispute it. I've seen arguments, philosophy, "gut feelings", "I've heards" and more but I still just can't grab onto this whole "Intimidator 305/Fury 325 killer" train of thought. Something's missing and maybe we're blinded by this thought of diving towards the Rhine from the clouds.

I don't know what it is. Something is nagging me that there's more to the project. Yes, they have (we assume) the funds. But I feel they want to do more in FP than a giant coaster. I can't put my finger on it, but I'm still inclined to think they bring a variation of that Walibi 2021 "Mega" and something else. What, where I don't know. But I'm still not 100% buying into the giga theory.

Jonesta6 · May 16, 2019

BGWnut said:
Honestly I think it's a combination of all 3. They are attempting to steal tourists from other parks. They are also attempting to keep one coming back year after year. And finally they want to convince local people who have never been it only been to KD to also come to BGW.

A big attraction can accomplish all 3. Probably who return every year are interested in seeing the new addition. Tourists looking for a trip see a big new ride and see much more interested in visiting. And locals who have never come might be enticed by a new ride.

There is a reason why SEAS wants to add a new attraction, event or show each year. All 3 groups you described above are likely to be interested in what's new. They vary what's one so they can appeal to different demographics. A new ride will appeal to a lot of people and an event would appeal to a portion of the same people plus some others that a ride might not appeal to.

I guess what I was thinking is that while they're probably doing all 3 to some extent in their planning, which one of is their highest priority?

That's what would, in theory, dictate what they do with their share of the capex.

Boris81 · May 16, 2019

Now I am totally confused:
So the park applied for a height waiver at 355 feet for the Madrid project - that height waiver wasn‘t approved so they changed plans and instead went ahead to built the Launch Coaster for 2020?
And now they are trying again to get an approval for the initial plan to build the attraction in 2021?

Jahrules · May 16, 2019

Boris81 said:
Now I am totally confused:
So the park applied for a height waver at 355 feet for the Madrid project - that height waver wasn‘t approved so they changed plans and instead went ahead to built the Launch Coaster for 2020?
And now they are trying again to get an approval for the initial plan to build the attraction in 2021?

I think you have a few facts wrong.

BGW applied for and received a height waiver of 315 feet for "project Madrid". For reasons unknown, Madrid fell through and MMXX was born.

The 355 foot height waiver we have now may be similar or related to the original plans for Madrid; or it may be something completely different. No way to know.

b.mac · May 16, 2019

And you yourself are wrong. Neither MMXX or 2021 are related to Madrid. Madrid itself is gone and dead.

Jahrules · May 16, 2019

b.mac said:
And you yourself are wrong. Neither MMXX or 2021 are related to Madrid. Madrid itself is gone and dead.

I said it might be.

We don't know what the Madrid plan was. Nor do we know what the 2021 plan is. So we there's no way to know if there's any relation between the two. There's no definite yes or no in that regard.

Keep in mind we found out this information from the JCC meeting for the height waiver. Ms. Cheely, in her presentation, was quick to correct Andrew that there would not be two attractions in excess of 300 feet; as the Madrid project did not come to fruition as originally envisioned.

If Madrid had come together as planned, would they have still applied for another height waiver for 355 feet? Maybe, maybe not.

There are also different degrees of relation. If the park wanted a large attraction in excess of 300 feet and Madrid fell through, the. Madrid and 2021 could be related in the sense that 2021 is meeting their 300+ foot attraction goal.

warfelg · May 16, 2019

Boris81 said:
Now I am totally confused:
So the park applied for a height waver at 355 feet for the Madrid project - that height waver wasn‘t approved so they changed plans and instead went ahead to built the Launch Coaster for 2020?
And now they are trying again to get an approval for the initial plan to build the attraction in 2021?

Timeline:
2017 BGW applied for a 315 foot height waiver and FAA waiver
Approved
Sometime in late 2018-19 the project was "scrapped" and MMXX was used instead (we don't know why)
2019 Festhaus balloon test conducted
2019 355 foot height waiver filed.

belsaas · May 16, 2019

BGWnut said:
There are only currently 5 Gigas in the world (I don't count rides like red force, Kingda Ka or Tower of Terror 2 as Gigas). Those 5 Gigas are:

Millennium Force
Fury 325
Steel Dragon 2000
Intimidator 305
Leviathan

Of those 5 Gigas they have the following rank inGolden Tickets Top 50 Steel Coasters in 2018:

Fury 325 - #1
Millennium Force - #2
Leviathan - #8
Intimidator 305 - #12

I'm not seeing how 4 out of the 5 Gigas built being in the top 12 means they are just stat additions and that enthusiasts don't care about them.

That's such a disservice to I305. # 1 in my <3

Logang · May 16, 2019

I'd actually counter that big coasters aren't crowdpleasers. At first it'll maybe have a boom, but like we saw last year, big additions don't equal big profits. There is almost never a wait for Intimidator 305. I can't speak for other gigas (maybe someone can correct me) but a lot of times they are deterrents to families cause they're kids or themselves are afraid to ride. High thrill rides are built with older thrillseekers in mind. Unless B&M or Intamin can offer a whole new giga experience, I personally don't see it as a good park investment.

Also, I thought it was established the Golden Ticket Awards were a joke pretty much? High ranking doesn't equal profit. Something SEAS needs for the future since the animal side of it is dying.

b.mac · May 16, 2019

Check Cedar Fair as a whole. Only gaining 100,000 total visitors from 2017 to 2018, adding 3 major rides and a mid-size addition in their chain. They admitted during their quarterly performances that Railblazer and Steel Vengeance did not bring in more people, and completely ignored bringing up Twisted Timbers in all 4 of their quarterly meetings. The only successful addition they had in terms of "attendance increases" was Hangtime and even then you could argue their seasonal events carried most of that weight.

Nicole · May 16, 2019

I just want to jump in with one thought. People seem to be lumping the quality and popularity of all gigas together. I don't think that is really valid.

I don't think the Fury, i305, and Millennium Force (as an example) have much in common, beyond height. Whether or not people flock to i305 (and for the record, I have seen long lines), every time I've visited Caro and CP, Fury and MF have had huge wait times. Honestly, Fury is easily my favorite coaster, and I don't just see it as a collection of stats.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think people should be judging the potential value of a hypothetical giga, using the assumption that they are all unpopular or boring.

On another note, I'm not sure why y'all are excluding coasters like Red Force, etc from the category of "giga." I agree that they are boring, one-trick ponies, but they are taller than 300 feet.

Crunchewy · May 16, 2019

Nicole said:
I just want to jump in with one thought. People seem to be lumping the quality and popularity of all gigas together. I don't think that is really valid.

I don't think the Fury, i305, and Millennium Force (as an example) have much in common, beyond height. Whether or not people flock to i305 (and for the record, I have seen long lines), every time I've visited Caro and CP, Fury and MF have had huge wait times. Honestly, Fury is easily my favorite coaster, and I don't just see it as a collection of stats.

I don't contribute much to lines on i305, but not because I don't love it. I do love it. I just don't find it to be very re-ridable. That first turn has such crazy high g forces and the rest of it is pretty damn intense too. I rarely ride it twice in a row or more than a few times on a visit. I ride it, then go ride other stuff to recover! It's quite the experience, though, and I wouldn't change a thing about it. So in that way I could see a ride being popular, yet not having long lines.

Project 2021/Drachen Spire: Intamin Multi-Launch Shuttle Giga Coaster [Cancelled]

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