Project 2012

[Balak95]

But, just think of the general public...Scandinavia, half the people in my World History class dont know where africa is how would they know what scandinavia even is.

 

[Zachary]

No offence to anyone, but I see no reason to make a theme park idiot-proof. If they don't know what Scandinavia is, they probably don't know that Oktoberfest has anything to do with Germany either- so what? They're going to like the rides whether they're located in a Scandinavian themed area or in Oompa-Loompa-ville. My point is that it won't make a difference for them either way.

Also, I think (or at least I hope) that if you asked most people who go to Busch Gardens where Scandinavia is, they'd say Europe. Even if they didn't though, it doesn't really matter. Their visit to the park could actually teach them something.

Scandinavia is an area in Busch Gardens > Busch Gardens is a European themed park > Scandinavia must be an area in Europe

 

[griffonrox]

Is French Canada in Europe? It's in Busch Gardens. Using that model, French Canada is an area in Busch Gardens > Busch Gardens is a European themed park > French Canada must be a area in Europe?

Either way, a new area probably won't come for some years, if at all. Feshaus Park is a very well used asset (Concerts, Fireworks launching grounds, howl-o-scream, ect.) and it would be foolish for busch to develop that area. The only reason for closing FP is to use that area for storage of parts/machinery for the 2012 coaster, not that the coaster would majorly invade the area.

 

[iheartbgw2020]

im actually hoping it will invade the area. This coaster could use some brawn after the addition of Grover's Alpine Express.....

 

[Zachary]

Griffonrox, that's the problem with that area. It needs rethemeing.

 

[griffonrox]

Well where would the concerts and howl-o-scream mazes will go? Busch found out after the first "Glory In The Gardens" concert that they could not have concerts in the Royal Palace Theater because much more than 5000 people want to see a concert. It would be stupid for Busch to get rid of FP for a coaster.

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It needs rethemeing.

Why? It's an amphitheater.

 

[Parkgoer]

Well where would the concerts and howl-o-scream mazes will go? Busch found out after the first "Glory In The Gardens" concert that they could not have concerts in the Royal Palace Theater because much more than 5000 people want to see a concert. It would be stupid for Busch to get rid of FP for a coaster.

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It needs rethemeing.

Why? It's an amphitheater.

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Year round draw of guests from a coaster > Short draw from concert

 

[James]

Year round draw of guests from a coaster > Short draw from concert

While yes this is true, once the newness of a coaster wears off it switches. Who do you think brought more people to the park last year in August? David Cook or Griffon?

People who want to see the concert will come to see just that and pay for the one day ticket.

Concerts are new every year and bring in new people in every time. Festhaus Park isn't going anywhere for a long time.

 

[Parkgoer]

IMO if people really wanted to see David Cook then he wouldn't be having to play a theme park. Odds are most people that is draws are people who were going to go a different day and held out for that day. So not lost there; otherwise passport members, so the sale of food. A dope coaster would own it. I cannot imagine some of the no-names they have coming in topping an outstanding coaster attendance wise. That's just my .02.

 

[Zachary]

It needs rethemeing.

Why? It's an amphitheater.

Sorry, I should of quoted your post. I meant New France.

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Year round draw of guests from a coaster > Short draw from concert

While yes this is true, once the newness of a coaster wears off it switches. Who do you think brought more people to the park last year in August? David Cook or Griffon?

People who want to see the concert will come to see just that and pay for the one day ticket.

Concerts are new every year and bring in new people in every time. Festhaus Park isn't going anywhere for a long time.

Do people really buy one day tickets to go to a concert at a theme park? I really don't see that being the case. I imagine that most of the people who go to those concerts are pass holders or tourists who where coming to the park anyway...

For anyone who thinks that Festhaus Park isn't going anywhere in the next 5 seasons or so, my question to you is where will the park expand to? This coaster will probably be seen as "just a replacement of the Big Bad Wolf"- the park will need a new large coaster in the near future.

 

[griffonrox]

1. What would you do? a. Buy a ticket to a theme park and get a FREE concert, or b. Buy an $100+ Ticket to get the floor seating at the same concert, just no theme park. It's a better deal for us to go if they had a band that you like, than to get just a concert ticket.

2. Maybe an extension of Festa beyond rapids. Just a thought

 

[James]

For anyone who thinks that Festhaus Park isn't going anywhere in the next 5 seasons or so, my question to you is where will the park expand to? This coaster will probably be seen as "just a replacement of the Big Bad Wolf"- the park will need a new large coaster in the near future.

The expansion discussion has gone on for years now. But BGW hasn't expanded since the late 1980's. It's been what 25 years? Since then all we have seen is either a country renovated, rides replaced, or countries replaced. Why is this? There isn't any logical area to expand to or a place for the people to park to account for the increase numbers. The park has in a way locked itself into the area its in now. Anything outside of that loop presents big problems for the park that are hard to solve without an unlimited amount of money.

While we're on the topic lets think about the areas people always seem to bring up as places the park could expand to.

Lets start off with everyone's favorite, Festhaus Park. Since DF was taken out in 2002, this area has been the home to many HOS attractions and in the past 5 years the summer concert series, along with other random events ( Ramp Jam, etc.). To start the area is heavily secluded with one path going in and one going out. Some people even go as far as to blame this for the closing of DF. But for concerts, it's great because you can have a rock concert in the park without the rest of the park hearing it. Then there is the draw that these events bring to the park. While you all argue that people wouldn't just come to the park to see the concert and any band playing in a theme park are not doing so great anyway, let me ask you this. Why have it then if it brings no benefit to the park? I used David Cook as an example in an earlier post. He is right now a very popular artist and was even on American Idol last night and has his next album coming out in June. The guy sells out concerts. So to say that playing in a theme park is a bad thing isn't quite true. His career seems pretty bright so maybe it's not bad to play in a theme park. It's a different type of venue. Maybe he likes the change of pace? Anyway someone like him is going to bring people into the park just to see him because he's a big star. Point of all this is Festhaus Park and all its events bring people to the park who otherwise might not have come.

But lets say for a moment the park decided to get rid of Festhaus park in favor of expanding. So lets imagine theres a country back there. Forget the theme, forget what rides, just imagine theres a country. How would you get to it? At the moment theres just one pathway leading in and out of that area. The entrance to that path is hidden. One side theres the Festhaus and the other the Bumper Cars and soon a very large building housing the 2012 coaster. If it had a wide straight path leading into the new country then I could see it being an easier job drawing people into it. A country can't be back there with that one path. So how would we solve that problem. Well, we could build another train station, but thats harder than you think. Awhile back on BGEscape, a member there had a lot of experience with railroads and explained that placing a station in that area would create a lot of problems. One, the timing would be knocked off around the park at the different stations. Adding the 4th station means that load and unload time has to be added to the overall trip. So the time it takes to get to different places would be longer. Then there was something about the slope of the land that would mean having to completely redo the entire railroad from the trestle to the New France Station. So lets also pretend that the station worked out, we still need another way in. Now wait, Doesn't Festa only have one way in and out? Well yes it does, but the area is also much closer to the main path. All you do is cross a small bridge that leads into the area, and you can see Festa from the main path. In Festhaus park you can't. So in order to draw people into the new country we need another path. Where would it go? Well thats the problem the only way it could have worked is if it went through BBW's area or if a bridge was built across the Rhine, only way that would happen is if another expansion took place on the other side near Italy and Festa. So that brings me to the second area.

Home of the park's last expansion, Festa is a very busy area in the park, now looking at a map of the park it would seem simple to expand past Roman Rapids and possibly connect back into Italy at the bridge or connect over into another country built in Festhaus park. Right off the bat there are a few things that prevent this from being plausible. First there are the pastures that reside behind the train station and Roman Rapids. While it would seem silly for the park to not expand because they want to keep those fields, remember animals are a big part of BGW, there isn't anywhere else in the park to keep them. So getting rid of the fields means goodbye to the animals. Also since 2008, a HOS maze has been held in a small field back in the same area. I don't see this though, being something that would ever get in the way. To my knowledge those are the only things that would prevent this area being home to the next expansion, except for one important thing...parking.

On any given weekend in the summer, BGW is packed to the gills. Constantly the park is closing due to reach capacity. That's not just achieved by the number of people in the park but also the spaces left for parking. Once the park runs out of parking you have to turn people away. Without a solution for more parking the park can't expand no matter how much land it has for a new country.

So back to my original statement, the park hasn't expanded in 25 years, only replaced or renovated. And what I have stated are the reasons why. IMO the biggest reason is the parking issue.

Honestly after the 2012 coaster is built, I have no idea where to look next in the park for where the next big thing will go. My guess is it will be in the footprint of something there now.

 

[David]

^^^^
I kinda agree with where your coming from. I dont see bg making a new country anytime soon. I could see an expansion of festa being possible, the area becomes congested, though this could just be due to the layout. After this coaster is made, the main concern should focus towards parking. Having to turn people away is basically turning funding for any major changes away. I really dont see where new parking can go, but they need to figure out something.
Also looking towards festhaus park, There is already some construction flags and zones already places in parts of the area. I find it very unlikely this new coaster takes up that much space, but with multiple launches i guess they would be needed for a reason?

 

[Zachary]

Vaughanvt, you've made many excellent points, however, I think I have a way around most, if not all of them.

Arguments for an Expantion
You stated that the park hasn't had a large expansion since Festa and you are correct. I'd argue that they haven't needed to till now. Most all of the additions that have been made since Festa were to replace the weak links in their ride lineup. I'd say that they're out of those weak links. What do you want them to remove for their next big attraction? What ride even takes up the room needed for a large new coaster? Maybe Escape from Pompeii or Land of the Dragons? In my opinion, those would be bigger losses than something like Ramp Jam. Your other main argument against an expansion is parking. Would the county give them any trouble if they asked to build a two story parking garage or two? I don't think they would, but I'm sure some of you know a ton more about it than I do.

Festhaus Park
You say that the main things keeping the park form expending beyond Oktoberfest are its location and the special events that take place in the area. First up, the location argument. Someone brought up the idea that the Rhine River Cruise could be turned into a transport ride. I absolutely love this idea. If a new country was built and linked via the train, the boat, and the current path, I think that it would get plenty of exposure. Especially if/when a new coaster is added to said country. If a coaster can be seen from the Italy-Oktoberfest bridge, the general public will find a way to get to it. That's a simple fact.

Next up: Special Events. What if the Royal Palace Theater was covered and tickets where sold for $5 each? I think that it could easily replace Festhaus Park for concerts. The $5 price tag would be justified by air conditioning and seats. Simple. Things get a bit harder when we start looking at events like Howl-O-Scream and Ramp Jam. I honestly can't think of another place to move Ramp Jam. Personally, I don't see that as a loss, but someone may- I just don't know what to do with it. As for Howl-O-Scream, a few months ago I posted a nice long post to the Howl-O-Scream thread about a theoretical Howl-O-Scream without Festhaus Park. I actually think the ideas laid out in that post are far superior to the way things are currently run. Less stacking in houses, spreading people throughout the park better, and new opportunities for theming. It's a win-win.

Festa Field
Your main argument here (other than the parking which I covered above) seemed to be the animals. Couldn't the animals simply be moved to the other side of the train tracks allowing the current pastures to be turned into a proper country? This country could then be linked to the random dead end in Italy that someone brought up a few weeks ago and possibly down to the Rhine River Cruise. The path linking this new country to Festa could be placed where the train station currently is and the train station could then be moved towards Roman Rapids and given a proper station (Festa Station is terrible). Festa would no longer be a dead end, Festa Station would be replaced, we'd have a new country, land for a new coaster, and it would open up the possibility for a third river crossing in the distant future.


If I missed any points, please let me know. I think I'm going to bed now.

 

[Ludwig the mad]

Both of you have done an excellent job of hashing out the pros and cons of a new land. I'd never thought of having one on the other side of Festa, and now that it has been brought up, I love the idea, especially if it were Spain.

I also still feel that Scandinavia would be wonderful in FP. The key with both of those ideas is the Rhine River cruise. Part of the magic of Busch Gardens is that crazy topography! Whoever believed that a theme park could be successfully built in the middle of a rocky revein was a genius, but Busch has played it safe ever since. I say put a couple of those European style side mountain trollies going up and down the banks of the Rhine and use that revein to their advantage once again. Nothing will get traffic flowing in the park better than shipping everyone down in the pit!

 

[Zachary]

I say put a couple of those European style side mountain trollies going up and down the banks of the Rhine and use that revein to their advantage once again. Nothing will get traffic flowing in the park better than shipping everyone down in the pit!

You mean something like a Funicular? If they put two or three of those in (one next to Scotland, one next to Rhinefield, and one in a new country) they could completely change how people get around the park. In fact, it could dramatically reduce the number of people walking through the Wild Reserve and Da Vinci Gardens on busy days. It would also make the area below Loch Ness, which is by far one of the most iconic places in any theme park on this planet, wheelchair accessible.

Also, as Ludwig said, they have a very European feel to them. I imagine that Busch could pull it off without making it look too bad.

 

[James]

Vaughanvt, you've made many excellent points, however, I think I have a way around most, if not all of them.

Arguments for an Expantion
You stated that the park hasn't had a large expansion since Festa and you are correct. I'd argue that they haven't needed to till now. Most all of the additions that have been made since Festa were to replace the weak links in their ride lineup. I'd say that they're out of those weak links. What do you want them to remove for their next big attraction? What ride even takes up the room needed for a large new coaster? Maybe Escape from Pompeii or Land of the Dragons? In my opinion, those would be bigger losses than something like Ramp Jam. Your other main argument against an expansion is parking. Would the county give them any trouble if they asked to build a two story parking garage or two? I don't think they would, but I'm sure some of you know a ton more about it than I do.

Festhaus Park
You say that the main things keeping the park form expending beyond Oktoberfest are its location and the special events that take place in the area. First up, the location argument. Someone brought up the idea that the Rhine River Cruise could be turned into a transport ride. I absolutely love this idea. If a new country was built and linked via the train, the boat, and the current path, I think that it would get plenty of exposure. Especially if/when a new coaster is added to said country. If a coaster can be seen from the Italy-Oktoberfest bridge, the general public will find a way to get to it. That's a simple fact.

Next up: Special Events. What if the Royal Palace Theater was covered and tickets where sold for $5 each? I think that it could easily replace Festhaus Park for concerts. The $5 price tag would be justified by air conditioning and seats. Simple. Things get a bit harder when we start looking at events like Howl-O-Scream and Ramp Jam. I honestly can't think of another place to move Ramp Jam. Personally, I don't see that as a loss, but someone may- I just don't know what to do with it. As for Howl-O-Scream, a few months ago I posted a nice long post to the Howl-O-Scream thread about a theoretical Howl-O-Scream without Festhaus Park. I actually think the ideas laid out in that post are far superior to the way things are currently run. Less stacking in houses, spreading people throughout the park better, and new opportunities for theming. It's a win-win.

Festa Field
Your main argument here (other than the parking which I covered above) seemed to be the animals. Couldn't the animals simply be moved to the other side of the train tracks allowing the current pastures to be turned into a proper country? This country could then be linked to the random dead end in Italy that someone brought up a few weeks ago and possibly down to the Rhine River Cruise. The path linking this new country to Festa could be placed where the train station currently is and the train station could then be moved towards Roman Rapids and given a proper station (Festa Station is terrible). Festa would no longer be a dead end, Festa Station would be replaced, we'd have a new country, land for a new coaster, and it would open up the possibility for a third river crossing in the distant future.


If I missed any points, please let me know. I think I'm going to bed now.

Arguments for Expansion:

As to the question of what attraction bites the dust next? I have no idea. I don't have any clue as to where the next big thing will be.

As for the parking garage thats actually a good idea. We know the county allows park garages since I know of two off the top of my head ( Colonial Williamsburg, Movie Tavern). Only thing that might stop it from happening would be a timeline that could overlap into the park season and cause problems and then maybe just the idea of something that big being in an open space. County might not like that very much.

Festhaus Park:

I highly doubt Rhine River Cruise could ever be a transport ride for many reasons. 1. There isn't a good location along the river near the trestle for the boats to dock. 2. The time it would take for that boat to load at one dock and then unload at another would be around 15 minutes. It would take 8 minutes just to walk t that same spot. 3. The boats close at sunset. That means after 8 in the summer you have a transport ride closed. 4. Who would walk down that hill to get on a boat and then have to walk back up another hill when you get to the next dock? This idea just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble it would cause.

As for the RPT, You'll never seen them enclose that and then charge people to get inside. Once you present something for free and then take it away people get mad. Even if its just $5, a family of four who is visiting the park for one day spends $60 just to get in, so right off the bat they have spent $240 just go get in before they have ridden one ride, now its lunch time, they spend another $50 there, the kids want to play some games, theres another $20 to $30. So right now the family has spent around $320 and then you want to charge them again for something that the park used to offer for free? Won't go over very well. BGW needs Festhaus park.

Festa Field:

Coming from living on a farm and working with animals in my life I can tell you that field you are talking about is no where near the size it needs to be to let 5 horses and other small animals roam and graze. As for a path into that new area I think it would just go where the access road crosses the tracks now in front of the Festa Station.

 

[Zachary]

Orange for new pastures and red for a new country:

It looks like they could do a bit of land clearing and end up with about the same amount of room they have now...


PS: Sorry for the terrible map. I'm in a rush.

 

[Ludwig the mad]

As far as your points against using the Rhine River Cruise as transportation, I would have to disagree:

1. There is as much a good place for a dock at the tressels as there was for the original dock. It all depends on building the dock

2. Loading would take longer, but not much longer than loading the train. Plus I feel that many people would want to board just for the novelty of it.

3. As far as walking down to walk back up, I agree. I only make that trek when I've eaten too much at Das Festhaus. That was why I suggested the funiculars (thanks for the correct term, by the way Swiftman). It would be vital to make that passage an easier one. I love riding on the funiculars near Niagra Falls. They are a ride unto themselves.

4. As far as closing at night, my first question is do they close for safety purposes or just because no one is interested in taking a Rhine River tour when it's too dark to see anything? My bet is that the boat operators could run that river blind.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Zachary]

I'd say that even if they had to close at 8, it would still be a massive improvement to the current transportation system...