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At best those assumptions are going to have pretty wide variability, so figuring out if the actual number of cases (the number no one knows or could know) has gone down or up is at best a guess.

So, as Zachary has pointed out, we're not solely talking about the total number of cases, but let's just follow your logic for a second. You're saying that our conclusion—that the rise in positive tests suggests significant community spread and the virus not being under control—is not definitive, because the numbers are complex and that it's "at best a guess." And it's true that those numbers are complex, and that testing isn't 100% foolproof (although as Nicole notes, that goes for false positives AND false negatives), and thus technically speaking no one truly knows how much the virus has spread. But if I'm following correctly, you're using this fundamental uncertainty about the state of the virus as an argument AGAINST restrictions, whereas I would argue it's exactly why those restrictions need to be in place. The uncertainty of COVID—how far it's spread, its long term effects, its impacts on different age groups, etc.—is precisely why it would be reckless to look at these numbers and decide that the lack of definitive, absolute understanding of the virus means we should just open everything and see how it shakes out.
 
I see we’re back on this “percent of positivity is useless” train. It’s so baseless.

Community A:
25,000 people
10,000 tested
700 positive
7% positivity rate

Community B:
10,000 people
5,500 rested
600 positive
10.9% positivity rate

What community is hit worse?
 
I do want to point out that my comments earlier are not on the side of making an argument for full reopening everything or reducing/removing restrictions.

It's more of trying to get an understanding and consensus - we know there's a problem with a spread, but how confident in the data are we? How would anyone know what margin of error exists to be able to confidently say how fucked we are?
 
Sure. There are uncontrolled variables throughout. No one is talking about trying to draw conclusions from any specific day or even a few days—that’s why the trend line is the 7 day average—it smooths over the inevitable inconsistencies from day to day.

No one is trying to use this data to pinpoint an exact number of cases—but I think any reasonable, unbiased actor would look at the consistent rise in the 7 day rolling average and reasonably conclude with a high degree of confidence that SOMETHING started to change at the end of June in VA. Since that change can’t be attributed to something like tighter testing requirements (they’ve been relaxed) or fewer tests being conducted overall (rationing tests to only the most needy)—I don’t see how anyone could possibly not interpret the data as an indication of a likely overall increase in cases in VA.

Trying to concoct some elaborate alternative justification for the very significant spike in the 7 day rolling average without any actual data to back it up just strains credulity frankly.
I'm NOT going to argue there is NOT an increase in total cases. But, I'll play along and chime in with non-elaborate alternate justifications.

1. Increase in false positives from before
2. Decrease in false negatives (as Nicole pointed out, there is more likely an increase in false negatives)
3. Decrease in non-Covid illnesses brought on by the warmer weather
4. Self selection bias (while standards for testing are more lax, self selection to go get tested is becoming more self selecting towards positive)

Hopefully, those in government have an idea of the false test results, and can build that into their standard error. I don't think any jurisdiction is publishing their standard error, unfortunately. So, what percentage change is a significant change? For example, if the percent change is less than1%, that could entirely be attributable to false test results, and not any change in actual number of cases. (Though, I will say that if the 10% change in positive test results is within the standard of error, then these tests would be a complete waste of time and money).

Now, the final two possibilities could have definite effects.

Back in March, if someone felt sick, there was a much greater probability it was some other bug (compared to now). Now, with non-covid19 illnesses decreased with warmer weather (which happens every year), the percentage of sick people who have covid will increase. Therefore, though the total number of covid cases could be steady, testing people with symptoms would result in an increase in the percentage positive covid.

You can also make a case that relaxing the standards to get tested would result in an increase in the percentage of positive tests as a result of self-selection bias. Before, only those with symptoms would be tested. Therefore, we were missing almost all those who had covid but no or mild symptoms. Now, with the lax standards, we are able to catch those without symptoms. As hospital admissions are pretty steady from before this spike, it's clear that the increase in positives is coming from those with no or mild symptoms. These are people who probably wouldn't have been tested with more stringent testing protocols.

Therefore, if we look at the people who would not have been tested before, but are testing now... is there a self selection towards positive? Very possibly people won't get tested unless they have reason to be tested (they know someone who is positive, or have mild symptoms consistent with covid). So, the relative question here is this: if the overall Covid rate were the same, would the the self selection bias result in a positive test rate that is greater than or less than the positive test rate from those who were tested earlier on.

Just to reiterate, I am not arguing that these explanations are able to account for the 10% increase. My point is that the data is far from self explanatory, and we really don't know what is going on. Which is why everyone saying they are making decisions based on science and data is really only half-truths. They are making decisions based on risk assessment probabilities (at least I hope they are), which is a combination of statistics and relative, subjective, value judgments of negative outcomes. And, I would hope they are taking the consequences of the lock downs into account in these risk assessment models (unemployment, poverty, behavior health issues, domestic violence, neglect of other medical issues, etc.). Maybe there is an increase in total numbers, but maybe that increase is half what the testing data would suggest.

And, maybe the number of cases is skyrocketing more than the data suggests. Respiratory infections are (in general) more likely to cause severe complications in cold weather than warm (which is why having a spike now could be a blessing in disguise - if there's going to be a spoke, it's better to have it now than in the winter). If this holds true for Covid (and it very likely does), then a steady rate of hospitalizations would mean a higher infection rate in the population.

To bring this back to Bush Gardens

Nothing particularly newsworthy in the latest local story focused on the closure's impact on tourism in the area, although I did find this part interesting:



Initially it had seemed like Lembke was going to be active in lobbying the state, but it feels like the park realizes that such efforts would read very differently in a situation where the state is back up to averaging 1000 cases a day, compared to the 600 or so when the Phase 3 restrictions were first revealed.

Sometimes, appearance is everything. Just the fact that the numbers look worse, means they can't advocate for reopening. It would just look bad, even if you could guarantee that the park opening at 5000 capacity wouldn't cause any increased cases.

Assuming there is an increase in number of cases, the question is where are they coming from? Travel to other states? Beaches? Bars? Bowling alleys? Hopefully, they can conduct interviews with those who test positive, and do a statistical analysis to zero in on the activities that correlate with infection. And, hopefully they have been doing this all along. Then, the results could be compared to other states, to further zero in on the problematic activities, and hence the shut downs could really become specific to the problematic areas.

Maybe we'll find that theme parks can open, but beaches shouldn't be. Maybe open movie theaters, but close bowling alleys.
 
Sometimes, appearance is everything. Just the fact that the numbers look worse, means they can't advocate for reopening. It would just look bad, even if you could guarantee that the park opening at 5000 capacity wouldn't cause any increased cases.

Assuming there is an increase in number of cases, the question is where are they coming from? Travel to other states? Beaches? Bars? Bowling alleys? Hopefully, they can conduct interviews with those who test positive, and do a statistical analysis to zero in on the activities that correlate with infection. And, hopefully they have been doing this all along. Then, the results could be compared to other states, to further zero in on the problematic activities, and hence the shut downs could really become specific to the problematic areas.

Maybe we'll find that theme parks can open, but beaches shouldn't be. Maybe open movie theaters, but close bowling alleys.

Every bit of contract tracing in both Virginia and the states experiencing more particular spikes has tied the outbreaks to two key factors: patronizing bars and restaurants, and family/social gatherings. Those, so far, have been the only cited sites of significant transmission.

Of course, the problem is that contact tracing is dependent on people being willing to share their activities, and by all accounts many have been refusing to reveal details out of fear of being stigmatized for their actions. Which means that while it may be possible that the Florida parks could be responsible for some cases, those who visited may not want to admit they caught it at the park. Which leaves us in a situation where technically speaking, there is no evidence to suggest that the parks represent a greater risk than some of these other locations, but the absence of evidence is too anecdotal to offer meaningful justification for action amidst the optics issue you identify here.
 
Every bit of contract tracing in both Virginia and the states experiencing more particular spikes has tied the outbreaks to two key factors: patronizing bars and restaurants, and family/social gatherings. Those, so far, have been the only cited sites of significant transmission.

Of course, the problem is that contact tracing is dependent on people being willing to share their activities, and by all accounts many have been refusing to reveal details out of fear of being stigmatized for their actions. Which means that while it may be possible that the Florida parks could be responsible for some cases, those who visited may not want to admit they caught it at the park. Which leaves us in a situation where technically speaking, there is no evidence to suggest that the parks represent a greater risk than some of these other locations, but the absence of evidence is too anecdotal to offer meaningful justification for action amidst the optics issue you identify here.
In total agreement about bars, restaurants, optics, etc. If we just went by what the CDC says about contact tracing, there is no reason why parks shouldn't be open...


"For COVID-19, a close contact is defined as any individual who was within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes starting from 2 days before illness onset (or, for asymptomatic patients, 2 days prior to positive specimen collection) until the time the patient is isolated."
 
Alright so I have decided to come back from my self imposed 4 month social media ban because honestly it was way too much to deal with considering everything that's been going on. And it has done wonders for my mental health during all this.

But I come back with some news. Apparently BGW is in the process of reopening. They haven't called any TMs back yet but I am told that they could be reopening as early as next week. From what I understand they will not be opening the entire park just a portion of it. From what I understand they will definitely open England and Ireland and the debate is between Italy and France at this point and that is all that would reopen. From what I am told if everything proceeds to plan they should be calling some TMs back this week.

Take this with a grain of salt but I'd expect to hear more in the next few days.
 
Apparently it will be as barebones a staff as they can make it. Most TMs will not be returning from furlough yet. From what I understand most full time hourly and salary staff will still be on furlough and it will be mostly seasonal and part time staff that are returning. Even then it will be a very small portion of that staff
 
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Apparently it will be as barebones a staff as they can make it. Most TMs will not be returning from furlough yet. From what I understand most full time hourly and salary staff will still be on furlough and it will be mostly seasonal and part time staff that are returning. Even then it will be a very small portion of that staff

Good to hear from you buddy
 
But I come back with some news. Apparently BGW is in the process of reopening. They haven't called any TMs back yet but I am told that they could be reopening as early as next week. From what I understand they will not be opening the entire park just a portion of it. From what I understand they will definitely open England and Ireland and the debate is between Italy and France at this point and that is all that would reopen. From what I am told if everything proceeds to plan they should be calling some TMs back this week.

Take this with a grain of salt but I'd expect to hear more in the next few days.

Most interesting. I'll get to the question of Italy vs. France in a second, but only opening a smaller section of the park creates some social distancing challenges in terms of choke points, since the "loop" is out of the question. Curious what the solutions would look like there.

As for Italy vs. France, the benefit of Italy is that it would give them more attractions total if they run the flat rides, and a water attraction that would offer a direct appeal during the summer months. It would also mean a couple of extra kiddie rides (although how you social distance in those queues is a big question mark). It also theoretically gets you another full service restaurant location, if they're going to try to run them.

Whereas France gets you a second coaster, and the easiest one to social distance on in terms of capacity, it doesn't really get you much else outside of the food stall locations. But it would be much cheaper to staff as a result.

I feel like the choice they make is going to tell us a lot about their perceived audience for a partial re-open, if it materializes.\

Edit: Also, while I know some people were advocating for them opening the park just to walk around, I feel like they're going to need to enforce a hard barrier (probably outright walling areas off) for security reasons.
 
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"For COVID-19, a close contact is defined as any individual who was within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes starting from 2 days before illness onset (or, for asymptomatic patients, 2 days prior to positive specimen collection) until the time the patient is isolated."

This describes queues and theaters in theme parks. I think the definition you quoted demonstrates exactly why BGW needs to stay closed. I say this in particular after experiencing BGT, and SWO this week. Unless BGW manages to do a better job of enforcement, close contact in inevitable.
 
This describes queues and theaters in theme parks. I think the definition you quoted demonstrates exactly why BGW needs to stay closed. I say this in particular after experiencing BGT, and SWO this week. Unless BGW manages to do a better job of enforcement, close contact in inevitable.

Yeah: again: if social distancing is enforced, it shouldn't be a problem, but how do you actually achieve that?

And particularly, how do you do that if you're trying to bare bones staff at the same time? Admittedly, all of this becomes easier if there's no more than 1000 people allowed in the park. But when you start working through the logistics, it all starts to unravel a bit. How do you enforce distancing in the Finnegan's Flyer line? The logical way to extend it would be to take the line up toward the theater, but that cuts off the shop, which is really the only reason they'd be trying to open with a limited footprint anyway.

I'm intrigued by this idea as a sort of social experiment, and as a problem-solving exercise, but it's not like it's a "flip a switch and open the front of the park" solution to the central risks of opening a theme park in the current circumstances.
 
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I can see a lot of pass members being disappointed if it means their memberships will stop being extended if the park partially reopens...and dining plans, etc are all going to be a mess logistically

Oh, it creates as many—if not more—problems as it solves, definitely.
 
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Yeah: again: if social distancing is enforced, it shouldn't be a problem, but how do you actually achieve that?

And particularly, how do you do that if you're trying to bare bones staff at the same time? Admittedly, all of this becomes easier if there's no more than 1000 people allowed in the park. But when you start working through the logistics, it all starts to unravel a bit. How do you enforce distancing in the Finnegan's Flyer line? The logical way to extend it would be to take the line up toward the theater, but that cuts off the shop, which is really the only reason they'd be trying to open with a limited footprint anyway.

I'm intrigued by this idea as a sort of social experiment, and as a problem-solving exercise, but it's not like it's a "flip a switch and open the front of the park" solution to the central risks of opening a theme park in the current circumstances.
Honestly with 1000 people even in just half of the park there really wouldn't be any lines at anything. It should be it simple to social distance people
 
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I can see a lot of pass members being disappointed if it means their memberships will stop being extended if the park partially reopens...and dining plans, etc are all going to be a mess logistically
There's no way they can count a minimally open park as compensation for paid memberships. That's a class action lawsuit waiting to happen.

I'd assume separate daily tickets, perhaps with discounts for members. If they really wanted to make this work they could open Pantheon and a few other rides to help sell daily tickets.
 
Perhaps $10 admission and then sell tickets per ride. Thus will result in people staying for short periods of time which will allow a greater number of total visitors as people rotate in and out.

They can use the pay per ride quick queue system on the app so ticket sales could be contactless. And all rides could be reservation only, so they can avoid having the many people in the queue.

With only 1000 people and a fee per ride set up, getting a reservation for a ride won't be a problem.

Passes and memberships should be on hold like the park isn't even open at all.

Fun cards should be valid for 2021.

Edited to add: Italy, not France. More rides, restaurant, large shaded seating area that's easy to set up social distance tables, and they need to attract families - which means family rides. Also, on a hot day, Pompeii > griffin.
 
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