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David said:
TheMostHappy said:
Sorry sorry, like I said I am not really into the business side of things with all this theme park stuff!  I should have said it the other way around, my bad... the point I was trying to make is that I object to their continued ties- because, as I said, I think Sea World, for better or for worse, will not recover so I don't want BGW to go down with it.  But again, sorry my bad, that probably makes my post confusing and I apologize.

As for the ethics stuff, I don't want to majorly derail this conversation but to put it briefly, I disagree with the very notion of keeping orcas and dolphins in captivity.  It can be the best, most humane, most modern captivity ever, but I object to it on the grounds that I think captivity is inherently cruel for certain animals.  I could go on at length about where I personally feel that line should be drawn in terms of what animals are suitable for captivity and which are not, but in short it's a combination of the intelligence of the animal and our ability to simulate their natural environment.  Orcas and dolphins are very smart, and there is nothing we can do to even remotely approximate their natural habitats spanning thousands of miles of ocean, so to me that is clearly a case of an animal that should not be kept in captivity.  But that is my own personal opinion and I respect that others here may feel differently.


Sorry to double post but just wanted to add- I really don't mean to divert this into a discussion of animal welfare because this really isn't the place, the only reason I raised that point was to explain the reasoning behind my question, which is what is the likelihood or possibility, given the current financial situation, that BGW may be able to cut ties with SEAS?  And again, please forgive me because I really really don't have a grasp on the business side of this stuff so feel free to tell me if there's something I'm just not getting.



You are really confused here.... BGW cannot just simply "cut ties" with SEAS. SEAS is a corporate entity (created and IPO'd by the previous owners BlackStone), who owns/runs all the parks under it's umbrella. BGW would have to be sold by SEAS to someone else. This isn't a franchise situation.... You can't just give your corporate office the middle finger and move on.



Yes sorry, that is what I mean when I say cut ties- I am asking if SEAS, due to its current financial woes, might be likely to sell BG to someone else, and who that someone else might be?


Zimmy said:
TheMostHappy said:
As for the ethics stuff, I don't want to majorly derail this conversation but to put it briefly, I disagree with the very notion of keeping orcas and dolphins in captivity.  It can be the best, most humane, most modern captivity ever, but I object to it on the grounds that I think captivity is inherently cruel for certain animals.  I could go on at length about where I personally feel that line should be drawn in terms of what animals are suitable for captivity and which are not, but in short it's a combination of the intelligence of the animal and our ability to simulate their natural environment.  Orcas and dolphins are very smart, and there is nothing we can do to even remotely approximate their natural habitats spanning thousands of miles of ocean, so to me that is clearly a case of an animal that should not be kept in captivity.  But that is my own personal opinion and I respect that others here may feel differently.

So long as we are clear that this is based on a solid sense of truthiness and no actual quantifiable data.  The reason I ask is that in a 1991 NOAA study for Congress it was determined that dolphins born in captivity have very low survivability rates in the wild, low acceptance by pods, and shortened life-spans.

That is all well in good, but we are talking about conservation, the point is to help maintain species that are in danger.  This is a fact often overlooked.

Also for the record, when PETA, in the mid 90s was able to convince the VA Beach City Counsel that the building of the VMSM (now VA Aquarium) habitat would be bad for them politically the rescue dolphins and born in captivity dolphins that were slated for the habitat, did not fair so well.  Also the rescue center did not get the upgrade they so desperately needed.  But that is a different conversation.  

The point is, the money we give to the conservation fund is supposed to help rescue and preserve animals.

Isn't that kind of the point? I don't think dolphins should be bred in captivity so the question of their (captive dolphin's) ability to survive in the wild is kind of moot to me. I would prefer that conservation efforts be focused specifically on limiting human behaviors that harm animal populations and not preserving the in the sense of preserving primarily in captivity, if that makes sense. Again, just my opinion.
 
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There has been talk of sell offs before.  
CF is unlikely due to the close proximity of KD
6 Flags is a possibility, but Maryland is not far away
Herschend Family Entertainment is often talked about.  I see this is a non-starter given the companies opinion of alcohol.  Further if Dollywood is any indication they do not take care of their parks.
Universal is spoken of in hushed tones.  Frankly I think they would want the water parks in FL and not much else.  I have trouble seeing them wanting any part of large regional parks, and Seaworld would be a poison asset.

Frankly IMHO BGW is screwed.  I do not know enough about Tampa's demo to speak to it.

That being said, I would love for Legoland to pick the 2 parks and their sister waterparks up. But that is just a dream.
 
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What are the chances/possibility that SEAS decides to split off the Busch Gardens brands and create an entirely new entity?
 
No law says they can not do that. But the board would have to agree to the sell off. It certainly is not with out precedent. just as an example this is what IBM did with Lenovo and Lexmark.

That being said, I am not sure what the advantage would be. Local management is no better than corporate. Shareholders might like the restructuring, but it would not change anything.

The fact remains, there needs to be a complete change in focus, corporate culture, and processes. BGW alone is clearly mismanaged and does not understand it revenue stream.

I will never for the life of me understand removal of marketing. Sure replace the morons, but for the love of god, you need marketing. Cut back on Ent, cancel a damn ride, cut pay if you must. But you NEED marketing.

(full disclosure, my focus in grad school was Marketing.)
 
Zimmy said:
Fair point, but if they had that maudlin a view, why keep building rides, restaurants, and info booths, and spending on new shows?

Who doesn't love a nice facade? Hide all your real issues with a bunch of make up. Gotta cover all those scares. Buyers like that "new park" smell.

I welcome our new UNI/Comcast overlords.
 
Honestly, Zimmy, I think that when all those things were in the works— new ride, shows, &c— they probably thought that everything was going to be fine.
 
If that really is the case, and I suspect you are correct, this is just sad.

This is almost as bad as watching RIM melt down. (strangely they are still a thing)
 
Zimmy said:
This is almost as bad as watching RIM melt down.  (strangely they are still a thing)

LolWut!.gif
 
TheMostHappy said:
I have completely ZERO idea what other people in this thread are talking about with the whole Paramount King's Dominion comparison...

I'll try my best to fill you in as briefly as possible.

See, when Kings Dominion opened in 1975 it was owned by the smaller TAFT/KECO company. This company built the park is a quaint, intimate family park with lots of charm. There was a heavy focus on family entertainment, shows, theming, food, landscaping, and so on. Basically for the first fifteen~twenty years of operation, Kings Dominion was on the very same wavelength as Busch Gardens in terms of focus and demographics. Then came Paramount. In the early 90's the film company purchased KD and its sister parks and quickly brought them to ruin. Paramount ripped out classic park icons left and right, replacing them with bizarre movie-themed rides. They essentially removed the family image of the park, ridding the charm and everything KD once stood for. Cleanliness, friendliness, theming, and charm all dropped to an abysmal low point. The whole park was awful. Have you ever wondered why many people still consider KD inferior to BGW? That's because Paramount ruined it. Luckily, KD was purchased by Cedar Fair in 2006, and they've finally been able to return to their former glory. Much more detailed information about KD's history here.

Unfortunately, this is the road many of us fear BGW is heading toward. For various reasons the park is losing what once made it so special, just like what happened to KD way back when. Only this time, I fear that the budget issues can only make things worse. BGW could very well be heading into the same Dark Ages that KD was once in. One can only hope that BGW's equivalent of Cedar Fair, its knight in shining armor, can come to the rescue before too much damage can be done.
 
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I would point out that some of us who went to KD before the Paramount purchase might disagree with some of Joe's version. I, for example, never found KD "charming," and I think many of the best rides were introduced during the Paramount era. In fact, I have personally never bought this specific argument about KD rising from the ashes of Paramount, which BGW plummets into the sinkhole of Blackstone.

But that is a debate for another thread.
 
Jonquil said:
They don't need marketing if they see no future past this next season...

This is crazy! Couldn't be farther from the truth! Why would they be investing in capital for a new attraction in 2015 then?

Folks on this forum need a dose of reality, BGW is having some headwinds at the moment, but will surely recover, as will the entire SEAS chain. While I do not agree with everything that has changed since the days of AB ownership, BGW still remains one of the best and most unique regional theme parks in the world.

I think people will be surprised when 2014 attendance numbers come out next year as BGW will likely see YOY improvement in attendance numbers. In fact, BGW probably had the best year from a profitability standpoint in the chain tied to improvement in attendance.

Let's get our conversation around the state of the park back on track.
 
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TheMostHappy said:
Yes sorry, that is what I mean when I say cut ties- I am asking if SEAS, due to its current financial woes, might be likely to sell BG to someone else, and who that someone else might be?

Sorry you're getting attacked over the animal rights issue, Happy. It's a very unpopular topic on these forums. *eyeroll* You're asking good questions. I also wish that SEAS would sell off just the Busch Gardens (and associated waterparks) properties; theme parks have different needs than SeaWorld, and Herschend or Universal management would be particularly appreciated up here in Williamsburg. SEAS IPO management only cares about the bottom line, hence Tempesto and the layoffs and zoo cuts. It's clear where their priorities lie, and it's not in a quality park experience.
 
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rvadude85 said:
This is crazy! Couldn't be farther from the truth! Why would they be investing in capital for a new attraction in 2015 then?

Oh, you meant that exciting new attraction that the park has failed to announce or even admit exists?

Well, they're continuing to "invest" in the ride because they already budgeted and "paid" for it quite a while before the extent and nature of the present fiscal disaster became evident.

rvadude85 said:
Folks on this forum need a dose of reality...

Judging by your post, I certainly agree, though I believe that early 2015 will provide you with the therapeutic dose of reality that you seem to require.
 
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rvadude85 said:
This is crazy! Couldn't be farther from the truth! Why would they be investing in capital for a new attraction in 2015 then?

Folks on this forum need a dose of reality, BGW is having some headwinds at the moment, but will surely recover, as will the entire SEAS chain. While I do not agree with everything that has changed since the days of AB ownership, BGW still remains one of the best and most unique regional theme parks in the world.

I think people will be surprised when 2014 attendance numbers come out next year as BGW will likely see YOY improvement in attendance numbers. In fact, BGW probably had the best year from a profitability standpoint in the chain tied to improvement in attendance.

Let's get our conversation around the state of the park back on track.

First off, I dont really know why you're getting so upset over this. You might want to relax just a bit...

Any investments for the 2015 season were paid for/set aside probably late 2013. This means there is no reason to stop the already current construction, including during the event of a sale. It's not like you can easily get a refund for a half built coaster....

Also, make note of the date I put forth. SEAS as a whole was doing "okay" around late 2013. That means a $2.5mill investment wasn't a big deal.

Also, let's not stretch it here... BGW is far from one of the best regional parks in the world.... You must not have visited many other parks...

Honestly, i'm expecting a 2-5% YOY attendance drop. Unless Christmas Town and it's $12 tickets (WHICH THEY TOLD INVESTORS THEY WEREN'T DOING) creates a miracle.

Again, I don't know why you're so upset. Numbers don't lie. Chopping the CEO (and other prominent head figures across the chain) is more than "some headwinds". Maybe you need a dose of reality? Or maybe enrollment in a business course?
 
Nicole said:
I would point out that some of us who went to KD before the Paramount purchase might disagree with some of Joe's version.  I, for example, never found KD "charming," and I think many of the best rides were introduced during the Paramount era.  In fact, I have personally never bought this specific argument about KD rising from the ashes of Paramount, which BGW plummets into the sinkhole of Blackstone.

But that is a debate for another thread.

So you mean.... In the same way that some people around here live in the BGW of past (AB days), yet there are plenty of people (mostly GP) who love the current BGW park?

Opinions.
 
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