Rumor After the Boardwalk Renovation & Coaster

[Nitro230]

This would, for me, confirm my suspicion that low-throughput, high-spectacle rides are being installed to encourage Fast Lane purchase. I thought I'd never do it, but I broke today; I paid $499 for all-season Fast Lane Plus. With the prices getting more reasonable and less capacious rides being installed (lines getting longer), I suspect many others will give in and increase parks' income per guest tenfold by buying daily Fast Lane on the spot. I was at Cedar Point for three weekdays this summer and I never saw the posted wait under 90 minutes for Siren's Curse. AlpenFury's layout looks incredible, but I'm worried it also supports the idea of low-capacity headliners being a trend for SFEC

I mean...to an extant sure. But when you look at the numbers....Great Adventure really isn't losing as much capacity as people have made it seem. With this Mr. Freeze style station, Phantom Spire should be able to match the output Kingda Ka had at the end of its life when only 1/4 the station was actually used. Yeah Ka at its full theoretical capacity surpasses Phantom Spire but when was the last time that actually happened? Then Green Lantern was a capacity machine but hardly anybody ever actually rode it so it had limited effect. Flash was a poor choice capacity wise, without any sort of dual load that line was always going to be terrible, but that was a last second purchase so it makes sense that this happened.

When it comes to Cedar Point....that park is just always going to be a nightmare when it comes to wait times because so many people visit the park. Siren's Curse was another last minute addition that to be frank....should've gone to a park more like Great Adventure. It's not a terrible ride capacity wise but it's not a ride designed for Cedar Point like all their headliners. Siren's Curse is a clone, that's the design that's supposed to be duplicated many times at mid tier parks, a much more efficient design could be made if they think Great Adventure needs it. But even when looking at the numbers....Siren's Curse had a lower average wait time than Steel Vengeance did the year it opened (by a whole 20 minutes too) so it's not really that terrible of a fit.

As a whole though, I doubt fast lane sales are at the forefront of these decisions. A lot of these rides were put in because of circumstance rather than a masterplan. The fact that B&M is in the mix still kinda goes against that idea as well, B&M while having issues makes some capacity machines. Alpen Fury is an outlier, I'll give you that, but Canada's Wonderland has always historically been the kinda testing grounds for Cedar Fair. Try a new model out there before you decide if you like it (the fact that they've blacklisted half the launch coaster manufacturers out there no doubt played a role too). Parks, to my knowledge, still make most of their money when you're out spending cash on the midways, that's why these restaurant renovations have been such a huge focus so far. Fast Lane is just a bonus.

 

[ski4ever5]

I think if we get a giga it’d have to be more along the lines of Fury/Intimidator/Skyrush so it doesn’t feel redundant alongside Nitro. I think the biggest problem with Orion is not actually that it’s so much worse than the other B&M Hypers, it’s that Diamondback is already a great ride in the same park, and Orion does basically the same thing, just taller.

Assuming the 2027 coaster is 300+ feet tall, it’s going to be awfully fast as well, so I’d say the park would benefit more from a world class family coaster before the next thrill coaster. Something along the lines of Big Bear Mountain would be an incredible addition to keep families coming to the park.

 

[northdetective]

that's the design that's supposed to be duplicated many times at mid tier parks, a much more efficient design could be made if they think Great Adventure needs it.

stares at tower spinner blankly

I think if we get a giga it’d have to be more along the lines of Fury/Intimidator/Skyrush so it doesn’t feel redundant alongside Nitro.

I was thinking the same thing, focusing more on "agility" would make sense and I think something like Kondaa is a good blend of classic airtime and weird twistiness.

Assuming the 2027 coaster is 300+ feet tall, it’s going to be awfully fast as well, so I’d say the park would benefit more from a world class family coaster before the next thrill coaster. Something along the lines of Big Bear Mountain would be an incredible addition to keep families coming to the park.

I think the lineup is still noticeably thinner even with the new coaster, but I wouldn't complain about a Big Bear Mountain. Ryan Eldredge's saying that he's "gun-shy" about calling Phantom Spire the Kingda Ka replacement makes me think he's either tempering expectations for the park as a whole, or he's suggesting a large thrilling addition is coming after Phantom Spire.

 

[netdvn]

This would, for me, confirm my suspicion that low-throughput, high-spectacle rides are being installed to encourage Fast Lane purchase. I thought I'd never do it, but I broke today; I paid $499 for all-season Fast Lane Plus. With the prices getting more reasonable and less capacious rides being installed (lines getting longer), I suspect many others will give in and increase parks' income per guest tenfold by buying daily Fast Lane on the spot. I was at Cedar Point for three weekdays this summer and I never saw the posted wait under 90 minutes for Siren's Curse. AlpenFury's layout looks incredible, but I'm worried it also supports the idea of low-capacity headliners being a trend for SFEC

I've had my Flags pass for almost 10 years now and I can count the number of times I've had to use all day Fast Lane or Flash Pass on one hand and that includes two days at Cedar Point. I've been to almost every SF park in North America. With proper planning, you shouldn't have to get Fast Lane outside of Cedar Point and maybe CW. Half of those visits were during Fright Fest/Haunt.

 

[ski4ever5]

I was thinking the same thing, focusing more on "agility" would make sense and I think something like Kondaa is a good blend of classic airtime and weird twistiness.

I think between El Toro and Nitro even Kondaa would be redundant to the general public (which pains me to say, since I am a camelback fan through and through), but I’m certain Intamin could cook up a lift hill coaster that delivers something different. Maybe we see our first traditional giga with an inversion? Something in between Kondaa and Pantherian but with a Mosasaurus roll would be *chef’s kiss*

That being said, I doubt Six Flags corporate would go with that big of an investment into Intamin in the next 5 years, so we’d have to hold out hope for some B&M magic

 

[Nitro230]

I know that Orion and Diamondback is the example used to show that a B&M hyper and giga in the same park doesn't really work, but look at Carowinds. Fury 325 is so fundamentally different from Intimidator that the two of them can coexist, yeah Orion is the most recent example but if B&M goes back to what they did with Fury (low to the ground, focus on speed rather than airtime) it can definitely work. That being said, I think we're at least 6 years away from that type of investment.

 

[wasteman]

I honestly don’t think Great Adventure will ever get a traditional giga. I feel like the whole point of installing a giga coaster is to make it the star of the park, but that’s a lot harder to do when it’s the second tallest coaster there. I feel like in order for a giga to make sense from a marketing perspective it’d have to be more gimmicky, like a giga dive or tilt.

In my opinion whatever they get next should be something everyone can ride, I’m personally really into the idea of them getting something like Big Bear Mountain. A really long, custom, and well themed family coaster would be perfect for Great Adventure. Maybe put it in the arena plot and tie it in to a new themed land with Medusa.

 

[northdetective]

I've had my Flags pass for almost 10 years now and I can count the number of times I've had to use all day Fast Lane or Flash Pass on one hand and that includes two days at Cedar Point. I've been to almost every SF park in North America. With proper planning, you shouldn't have to get Fast Lane outside of Cedar Point and maybe CW.

The point is most GP are not doing "proper planning," nor should they have to in order to enjoy their time at an amusement park, so they'll just pay out the ass instead.

I honestly don’t think Great Adventure will ever get a traditional giga. I feel like the whole point of installing a giga coaster is to make it the star of the park, but that’s a lot harder to do when it’s the second tallest coaster there. I feel like in order for a giga to make sense from a marketing perspective it’d have to be more gimmicky, like a giga dive or tilt.

And this is why I hate Phantom Spire so much. Now the line of thinking will be that actually good and enjoyable layouts aren't good enough to "top" it because they're not 400 feet tall, so nothing gets built except soulless and experientially vapid gimmick coasters that "differentiate" themselves by "looking cool," making for rides that suck at being efficient and at providing a ride that makes the wait worthwhile. And now I have to be "grateful" because good roller coasters are now a possibility that's at least a decade away, instead of the park using the current opportunity they have to build a good roller coaster. I don't see this park making it to 2037 with this mindset. Customers know slop AND where to go to avoid it (Hershey)

 

[warfelg]

I honestly don’t think Great Adventure will ever get a traditional giga. I feel like the whole point of installing a giga coaster is to make it the star of the park, but that’s a lot harder to do when it’s the second tallest coaster there. I feel like in order for a giga to make sense from a marketing perspective it’d have to be more gimmicky, like a giga dive or tilt.

In my opinion whatever they get next should be something everyone can ride, I’m personally really into the idea of them getting something like Big Bear Mountain. A really long, custom, and well themed family coaster would be perfect for Great Adventure. Maybe put it in the arena plot and tie it in to a new themed land with Medusa.

Tallest complete circuit coaster in the park would still be something to market.

I'll say something maybe (very likely) controversial - They should do something with Skull Mountain and do a more family friendly spinner. Keep the theme, redo the coaster with Mack for a spinner and have that open.

They could also use a twister layout woodie. Something in the Mystic Timbers/Invadr area. I love the family launched coaster. They could use a dive coaster.

Other types they could consider: Launched Winged coaster. Depending on the risk they want to take they could do a bobsled coaster. A water coaster would be a good option. They do need more kiddie/family friendly options. Heck they could use a traditional looper that's not single rail or floorless or flying or inverted.

Basically there's a lot of options that SFGAdv could go IMO that would be really marketable for that area, especially since many of those style coasters either don't exist in the area or they would have the newer version.

 

[northdetective]

I'll say something maybe (very likely) controversial - They should do something with Skull Mountain and do a more family friendly spinner. Keep the theme, redo the coaster with Mack for a spinner and have that open.

I swear to God if they ruin another serviceable Pinfari experience to make something new, expensive, and worse by Jinma I will actually lawyer up

As far as the complete circuit goes, idk how it could be that the GP "won't care" about Phantom Spire being a shuttle AND they'd be IMPRESSED by a full-circuit superlative. It either matters or it doesn't

 

[Nitro230]

I swear to God if they ruin another serviceable Intamin experience to make something new, expensive, and worse by Mack I will actually lawyer up

As far as the complete circuit goes, idk how it could be that the GP "won't care" about Phantom Spire being a shuttle AND they'd be IMPRESSED by a full-circuit superlative. It either matters or it doesn't

I mean....Skull Mountain is fine, the ride layout is whatever and the lack of any sort of theming during the actual ride is just sad. Its a family ride in a box. But the fact is that it's an old ride, I wouldn't be shocked at all to see it go away. I would much rather have something like DarKoaster in there which is definitely on the table if Quantum Accelerator at SFNE does well.

 

[northdetective]

I mean....Skull Mountain is fine, the ride layout is whatever and the lack of any sort of theming during the actual ride is just sad. Its a family ride in a box. But the fact is that it's an old ride, I wouldn't be shocked at all to see it go away. I would much rather have something like DarKoaster in there which is definitely on the table if Quantum Accelerator at SFNE does well.

I don't glorify medicore rides, I called it "serviceable." I'd be more than happy to see something like Quantum Accelerator, which is not worse than Skull Mountain, nor is it by Mack. At that point I'd rather see something outside though, they could look into preserving/rebuilding the Skull for a centerpiece.

 

[warfelg]

I mean....Skull Mountain is fine, the ride layout is whatever and the lack of any sort of theming during the actual ride is just sad. Its a family ride in a box. But the fact is that it's an old ride, I wouldn't be shocked at all to see it go away. I would much rather have something like DarKoaster in there which is definitely on the table if Quantum Accelerator at SFNE does well.

Yea. I mean I last rode it 10 years ago and it was sad then. That's why I bring up all new ride experience in that building and call is something like "Revenge of Skull Mountain" (I know that's lame). It's just not a super big building or plot, so if you take it out, chances of it being a coaster again are incredibly slim IMO. So it's a making good out of meh ride.

 

[Nitro230]

Yea. I mean I last rode it 10 years ago and it was sad then. That's why I bring up all new ride experience in that building and call is something like "Revenge of Skull Mountain" (I know that's lame). It's just not a super big building or plot, so if you take it out, chances of it being a coaster again are incredibly slim IMO. So it's a making good out of meh ride.

That's a fair point, honestly in that case I would rather keep the coaster in there and do some actual theming in there. It's just such a meh ride that I honestly ride like once a year? Honestly could see the entire thing getting knocked down eventually if they have no plans on renovating it (Dark Knight is already a solid indoor coaster, and it's getting a complete refresh right now).

Moving away from the topic of coasters....here's my non coaster, semi-realistic wishlist

1. Bring back the skyway (most unrealistic)

This park desperately needs a transport ride, it's far too big for there to be nothing of the sort. I don't think you can really weave a train through the park, that type of thing would've needed to be master planned. The towers are still there, there are plenty of capable manufacturers out there, you still got the beautiful western station there, ready to be used for something new (the other station was ugly anyway). Only thing giving me pause is how much these things cost nowadays.

2. Double sided lockers at the major rides

This really should be the standard going forward but the major attractions already in the park need them too. I'm specifically talking about Nitro and JDC. Nitro is an easy fix, the exit and queue meet up right before the station so it shouldn't be an issue. JDC is tougher, the queue would likely need to be rerouted to make this work but it's such a necessary change, it's essentially an up charge right now because you need to pay for a locker.

3. Nitro renovation

This ride desperately needs attention. The potential is there, I could easily see the queue get a major overhaul along with a repaint to have a theme similar to Orion. Go in and replace all the railings, maybe add in a queue house so you can create an experience that isn't just another coaster. Its one of the most popular rides in the chain and deserves this overhaul.

4. Confine the DC characters to Movie Town

I actually think that Movie Town does a good job representing these characters, everything works together really well. It's arguably the best DC area in the six flags chain. The rest of the DC themed rides can get removed. The whole area with Joker, Harley Quinn, and Skull Mountain (and hopefully the skyway station) is an area prime for a theming overhaul like aeronautica landing and jungle x. Superman I have no love for, if that ride gets taken out so they can fix the mess that is the parking lot I wouldn't care (as long as the capacity is added back elsewhere) if they keep it a retheme for the boardwalk area would be great.

5. Fix Battle for Metropolis

It's our only real dark ride in the park, I remember the ride being really impressive for a six flags ride when it first opened. Go in and bring back the 3D, fix all the effects and you have another solid family attraction in the park. As it stands right now it's just very meh and usually not worth the wait time it gets.

 

[warfelg]

3. Nitro renovation

This ride desperately needs attention. The potential is there, I could easily see the queue get a major overhaul along with a repaint to have a theme similar to Orion. Go in and replace all the railings, maybe add in a queue house so you can create an experience that isn't just another coaster. Its one of the most popular rides in the chain and deserves this overhaul.

Nitro needs some lovin' for sure. It's plaza needs work too. I always hate going to it because it's so 'off the beaten path' so to speak.

 

[netdvn]

The point is most GP are not doing "proper planning," nor should they have to in order to enjoy their time at an amusement park, so they'll just pay out the ass instead.


And this is why I hate Phantom Spire so much. Now the line of thinking will be that actually good and enjoyable layouts aren't good enough to "top" it because they're not 400 feet tall, so nothing gets built except soulless and experientially vapid gimmick coasters that "differentiate" themselves by "looking cool," making for rides that suck at being efficient and at providing a ride that makes the wait worthwhile. And now I have to be "grateful" because good roller coasters are now a possibility that's at least a decade away, instead of the park using the current opportunity they have to build a good roller coaster. I don't see this park making it to 2037 with this mindset. Customers know slop AND where to go to avoid it (Hershey)

1. Most SF/CF parks you can just stroll in on any given weekday during the season and not encounter long lines. The only time I've ever considered front of line passes at any SF/CF park was either during Fright Fest when the lines were unimaginably long for most of the rides, a trip I made to SFDK (it was a Saturday) and my first trip to CP this past summer. Every other park I've been able to enjoy without having to buy front of line passes. That includes both CW and SFMM. This also includes visits pre-merger as well.

2. Kingda Ka was a gimmicky coaster with no substance too. It's not even the best launch coaster in the park let alone best in the state (yeah I like Flash more). It was literally built to break records and nothing more. This upcoming launch coaster will have way more substance to it at the very least. Most of the public won't care that it's not as tall or as fast as KK as long as it pulls other gimmicks out of its sleeve.

And I don't understand all the Mack hate. I've ridden a number of their coasters and they most definitely can deliver a quality product. I like both Ride to Happiness and Time Traveler way more than I liked KK. Same with Copperhead Strike, Hyperia, Stardust Racers and Manta at SWSD. They're reliable, fairly high capacity and the public adores them. I can't see why this would be any different

 

[Nitro230]

And I don't understand all the Mack hate. I've ridden a number of their coasters and they most definitely can deliver a quality product. I like both Ride to Happiness and Time Traveler way more than I liked KK. Same with Copperhead Strike, Hyperia, Stardust Racers and Manta at SWSD. They're reliable, fairly high capacity and the public adores them. I can't see why this would be any different

Yeah this is really confusing to me too. The last two years the consensus "best coaster of the year" came from Mack Rides. They've really upped their game in the last few years. I mean look at Ride to Happiness, Stardust Racers, Hyperia, and Voltron. The only company even in their league right now is Intamin.

 

[ski4ever5]

I agree with the confusion surrounding the Mack hate as well. Just because the tower spinner isn’t everyone’s cup of tea doesn’t mean that all Mack rides are going to be worse than Intamin products. Having ridden Mack’s small lift hill spinners, they’d certainly be better than Skull Mountain.

I’d also like to push back on “Gimmick” rides not being able to be substantive layouts as well. Iron Rattler at Qiddiya is a much better looper than any B&M floorless I’ve been on, and it *also* has the tilt.

 

[northdetective]

I'm trying out cautious optimism... thinking about how beautiful a layout like Hyperion or Kondaa would be............... Maybe if the unmentionable spire goes REALLY well, Mack could be on the table.................................................................................... Hyperia of the States...............................but longer definitely........ even something like Stardust (northdetective would be okay with one track only) would be nice............................. intense but not hostile to families........... imagine

"all the Mack hate"

Other than a poorly-conceived reference to my valid critiques regarding the God-awful layout of Phatom Spire, I don't see what this nonsense could be about otherwise

edit: this is my issue with separating discussions into disparate threads. I'm not gonna be able to go back and quote things that I already said acknowledging the shittiness of Kingda Ka's layout and Enjoying Mack or disproving whatever Fanboy attitudes other people feel like projecting onto me every time somebody tries doing that

Iron Rattler at Qiddiya is a much better looper than any B&M floorless I’ve been on, and it *also* has the tilt.

You can die alone on this hill because other people decided it wasn't worth directly funding modern slavery to test the accuracy of your claims <3

 

[Zachary]

edit: this is my issue with separating discussions into disparate threads. I'm not gonna be able to go back and quote things that I already said acknowledging the shittiness of Kingda Ka's layout and Enjoying Mack or disproving whatever Fanboy attitudes other people feel like projecting onto me every time somebody tries doing that

You can just quote relevant content from another thread. Quote the post in the thread it's in, switch the post editor to code (see below), and then you can copy the formatted quote text block over to the thread you want to address it in.



Totally understand and agree that it's not elegant, but it's far less elegant to have a freewheeling uni-discussion where people talk about anything and everything with no direction. If someone wants that, TPR is formatted that way. Alternatively, there are various Discords or whatnot that result in essentially the same.

Our discussions in these threads are just as much for the active participants as they are for the many lurkers and unregistered readers—we're collectively producing (hopefully somewhat interesting) content to be navigated to and consumed with intention—not just a fleeting response to the person above you, but an entry into a type of community record that lives—hopefully at least somewhat discoverably—on for many, many years after all of us have forgotten about our participation.