Yup, and I agree, it's insane precisely for issues like you describe. There are many conditions that make waiting in lines significantly more uncomfortable/significantly more inconvenient than for the average guest and people with such conditions should definitely be able to utilize a virtual queue system or some sort of non-traditional, more accommodating waiting area.
Accessibility Accomodations Abuse
- Thread starter MrBradferd
- Start date
Yup, and I agree, it's insane precisely for issues like you describe. There are many conditions that make waiting in lines significantly more uncomfortable/significantly more inconvenient than for the average guest and people with such conditions should definitely be able to utilize a virtual queue system or some sort of non-traditional, more accommodating waiting area.
The documentation as friction probably helps a lot for questionable cases, though I'd imagine the staff don't push it with obviously visible disabilities - i.e. wheelchairs, mental disabilities, etc. No reason to have upset guests for what are guests obviously needing accessibility passes. In my experience a couple of the SF parks didn't ask for the card, but it's rather apparent visually the need.
Unfortunately I had the exact opposite experience during my shitshow of a trip to SFGAm back in May. I had never seen anything close to ADA abuse on that scale, entire school groups were flooding the ADA lines to the point that Rakshasa was probably running 1.5 ADA trains, 1.5 Fast Lane trains, and then a general queue train. Combine this with one train ops and a fairly lengthy breakdown, and what should’ve been a 45 min wait at most became a 3.5 hour wait.
I'd be shocked if that many people were going through the system described previously. I wouldn't be surprised at all of some Six Flags parks weren't following/implementing the same policy referenced above.
SFGAm has been bad most the summer. My one student goes about 3 times a week and he said he’s never experienced wait times, Fast Lane, or ADA lanes getting as much attention as they do.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if each park had their own policy TBH.
Yeah this about sums up how I feel. I understand why people need to use it, but feel like the system itself needs a lot of improvement. I swear it always happens to me when I'm waiting for Flash, although with that ride their VIP system is by far the most annoying delay when it comes to waiting in line. I try not to hold any grudge against those who use it, there are plenty of those who have genuinely valid reasons to use what the parks have put in place, but at the same time they're are plenty of those who also abuse the system, which makes me especially angry because I'm sure there are plenty of people who could probably use it but don't out of guilt. Meanwhile, some people have no shame and will try to use general anxiety to get an ADA pass.
Some people just don't care about anything other than themselves, unfortunately, and I feel like being at parks like this can really just bring out the worst in people.
The other thing that really hasn't been brought up much in here is the situation with scooters in the parks..... My home park is Great Adventure, hardly anyone there uses the scooters because the crowds it brings in, generally, doesn't need it. But when I went to Dollywood.....omg it was so bad. And I don't mean this to hate on people who need them, but I swear when I went, I saw one of two people: someone who was more than physically capable of walking around the park on their own, or someone who was in no state to travel around a theme park, and I was genuinely concerned for their well-being. Not to mention they clog up all the pathways. I swear the scooter people travel in packs and make it impossible to get around them, forcing you to walk at the sluggish pace of the scooters. I know I'm from the Northeast, and we generally have less patience than those down in Tennessee, but I was ready to slash the tires on the scooters because I could not get around them.
My god the scooters at dollywood made me not wanna go back to re ride Big bear mountain. That park with scooters is a awful mix. It's because it's a massive destination park and familys drag their elderly and overweight family along to the park to be with them causing that. They just sit around like a bunch of NPC wherever while their grandkids go ride and stuff.
Those things are anti-mobility devices. I took this from the station of Maverick last year
The prioritization was the worst part of it. I was a bit generous in saying that we’d see a general queue train every 4 dispatches, there were certainly times when I’d see two full ADA trains go.
I get that not everything is visible, I have back problems and standing still hurts like a motherfucker some days (and of course it tends to flare up during cons or park trips), but I have a very hard time believing that roughly 30% of the attendees of the senior trips that day needed ADA.
Even in a crazy world where they DID all need it, I shouldn’t have been able to watch the same groups ride multiple times before I got on.
I've been to 2 of the disney world parks with someone who has a disability that means he gets around via scooter (before any of the more recent major changes to the system, before galaxys edge opened), and that opened my eyes somewhat to the complexity of the issue. What actually counts as not being able to wait in a line is such a complicated question that I don't think it can be answered in a way that includes all people who need it and excludes everyone trying to abuse it. I don't envy anyone tasked with "solving" the problem that exists, it's gotta suck.
every system designed to help people faces the challenge of people abusing it, and makes it harder and worse for everyone. And if you do use it, please don't feel any guilt or shame for that.
every system designed to help people faces the challenge of people abusing it, and makes it harder and worse for everyone. And if you do use it, please don't feel any guilt or shame for that.
I just spent the last 30 minutes reading through the almost 6 pages of this thread. I have had to utilize ADA passes in the past for certain reasons (I would rather not disclose them here) and I’ve been able to utilize the ADA passes for Universal, Disney, SWO, BGT, BGW, and KD. Of all of them, Universal AAP has the best system. Disney DAS is right behind them, then KD RAP, then BGT/SWO/BGW RAP.
I’ll share what the process was for each of them, and you can see which ones were easier to abuse.
Universal (AAP/DAAP): you went up to the attraction greeter and recieved a return time based on the wait time, subtracted by 15 minutes, as that 15 minutes would be spent waiting in the Express queue. To receive an AAP at the time was a quick visit to guest services.
Now the current system requires you to work with IBCCES at least a week ahead of your planned visit, to give IBCCES time to review it, and then you take that to guest services and they determine then if you need an AAP or if alternative accommodations, like Queue Re-Entry is necessary. In the event it’s a same day visit and you have not worked with IBCCES, they can do a more extensive process without IBCCES at guest services.
Disney (DAS): you use the Disney app (still do) to create any and all return times. At the time I went, you’d show up with your return time, scan into lightning lane, and off you’d go. To receive the pass, you could literally go to guest services and say “I have IBS” and they’d give it to you.
Now? You now have to do an interview around a week ahead of your visit and it’s a very short list of approved conditions that receive DAS access. It’s the strictest system in who gives it, but it feels too strict sometimes. As the alternative option given is guests can check with CMs at the attractions to ask for a return time and it’s essentially up to CM discretion.
KD (RAP): you’d go to the greeter if present and they would send you up the exit, often the ADA route, and you’d get on immediately, and then your “return time” was your cooldown period. The reasoning behind this was that the gist arrived to an operational attraction, and there was no guarantee the attraction would still be operational come the return time. While I did like this, it definitely wasn’t fair. To get the pass, you had to fill out the IBCCES form like @RollyCoaster did, and you got it. Still works that way now, but I’m not sure if the return time system has changed. It’s been a minute.
BGW/SWO/BGT (RAP): the system for these parks is almost identical for each park just with some minor things different (I.e. appearance, processes, etc), but you would go up to the greeter or exit (wherever the next available ambassador was to assist you) to recieve a return time. You’d come back with that time, ambassador would initial, and you’d be good to go. To receive the pass you did not need to fill out anything with IBCCES, instead you would go to guest services and they’d just ask you “why do you need this pass and how would it help you”. You’d get the pass and all set. I believe this is still how it’s done at those parks.
The reason I’m sharing what my experience with those passes is to show where their strengths and weaknesses are. I like how KD gave immediate boarding since they couldn’t guarantee the operational status of the ride come the return time, however it is unfair to those in the actual standby queue. Universal has my favorite as in the event the ride is down come your return time, that return time will not be forfeited and one can get a return time for another attraction in the meantime. Disney was more or less the same way, but more prone to abuse. The BGT/SWO/BGW system is the most abused and easiest to get because there’s no actual vetting process.
All of this to say:
All parks should switch to the Universal/disney method for return times where they utilize the app (now, at least), and should vet al guests who are in need to verify the legitimacy of the request.
I’ll share what the process was for each of them, and you can see which ones were easier to abuse.
Universal (AAP/DAAP): you went up to the attraction greeter and recieved a return time based on the wait time, subtracted by 15 minutes, as that 15 minutes would be spent waiting in the Express queue. To receive an AAP at the time was a quick visit to guest services.
Now the current system requires you to work with IBCCES at least a week ahead of your planned visit, to give IBCCES time to review it, and then you take that to guest services and they determine then if you need an AAP or if alternative accommodations, like Queue Re-Entry is necessary. In the event it’s a same day visit and you have not worked with IBCCES, they can do a more extensive process without IBCCES at guest services.
Disney (DAS): you use the Disney app (still do) to create any and all return times. At the time I went, you’d show up with your return time, scan into lightning lane, and off you’d go. To receive the pass, you could literally go to guest services and say “I have IBS” and they’d give it to you.
Now? You now have to do an interview around a week ahead of your visit and it’s a very short list of approved conditions that receive DAS access. It’s the strictest system in who gives it, but it feels too strict sometimes. As the alternative option given is guests can check with CMs at the attractions to ask for a return time and it’s essentially up to CM discretion.
KD (RAP): you’d go to the greeter if present and they would send you up the exit, often the ADA route, and you’d get on immediately, and then your “return time” was your cooldown period. The reasoning behind this was that the gist arrived to an operational attraction, and there was no guarantee the attraction would still be operational come the return time. While I did like this, it definitely wasn’t fair. To get the pass, you had to fill out the IBCCES form like @RollyCoaster did, and you got it. Still works that way now, but I’m not sure if the return time system has changed. It’s been a minute.
BGW/SWO/BGT (RAP): the system for these parks is almost identical for each park just with some minor things different (I.e. appearance, processes, etc), but you would go up to the greeter or exit (wherever the next available ambassador was to assist you) to recieve a return time. You’d come back with that time, ambassador would initial, and you’d be good to go. To receive the pass you did not need to fill out anything with IBCCES, instead you would go to guest services and they’d just ask you “why do you need this pass and how would it help you”. You’d get the pass and all set. I believe this is still how it’s done at those parks.
The reason I’m sharing what my experience with those passes is to show where their strengths and weaknesses are. I like how KD gave immediate boarding since they couldn’t guarantee the operational status of the ride come the return time, however it is unfair to those in the actual standby queue. Universal has my favorite as in the event the ride is down come your return time, that return time will not be forfeited and one can get a return time for another attraction in the meantime. Disney was more or less the same way, but more prone to abuse. The BGT/SWO/BGW system is the most abused and easiest to get because there’s no actual vetting process.
All of this to say:
All parks should switch to the Universal/disney method for return times where they utilize the app (now, at least), and should vet al guests who are in need to verify the legitimacy of the request.
The current system also just makes more sense. Guest no longer need to go up to each ride twice now. This could be difficult/strenuous for those who have mobility difficulties on rides who station are quite far from the main path (Think of Great Eagle at SFGAm). They now only need to go up to each ride once, and can ride the next train and then get a time to return to the next ride.
Sorry in advance for this massive wall of text, I refrained from jumping in but wanted to give my perspective as a former ride op supervisor who has had hundreds of interactions with those using a Rider Access Pass. There are hundreds of reasons why someone might need a RAP, many of which are not visible. RAP are also more than a skip the line tool. They also tell the rider and the ride op's what rides they can and can not ride based on their condition, such as those with cast, prosthetics, amputee limbs, and those who need help with transfers from wheelchairs.
I will preface this with the fact that the new IBCCES Accessibility Card was not in effect when I worked at KD but the RAP was being exploited at times. The most egregious was a party of 4 using two different RAP to effectively cut their wait in two. At the end of the day, we as ride op's are not there to decide who gets RAP or judge those who use it, but we do see how often people use it to game the system at times. However, at the same time there are so many people who need it and use it properly. Something that stuck out to me working, was how you end up interacting more with people who use the RAP. They come up to the exit and you get to go talk to them, ask how their day is going and it is overall a friendly interaction. They understand that they are skipping the line but are then given a wait time until their next ride. When these guest are local's, you end up seeing them multiple times a year and you can build quite the relationship with them. There was this family whose little boy was on the spectrum who loved the White Water Canyon, and I mean loved. They were at the park every weekend and multiple times during the week. The parents didn't always ride, so sometimes while waiting near the exit I got to talk to them and they were always so appreciative of us at the ride and how nice we treated their child. But there are also people who would act like they owned the ride when they had a RAP. They would just walk to the exit and wave around the green sheet of paper or yell at you that they are "waiting". They would complain that the line is shorter than the wait them we gave them or say we waited to long to board them. You would also see them always ride a quick wait them ride right before a major ride on their pass. While allowed and perfectly fine to do, it shows that they knew how the system worked when they would ride something with a 5 min wait before something with an hour wait back and forth the entire day. When you interacted with them, such as how has your day been? They would just go would be better if you gave me a short wait time, or stuff like that. What made it even worse, was then people in the standby line would then get upset that we let them on right away. So the RAP riders would be mad that we waited one cycle before letting them on and then guest in line would also be mad at us for making them wait. It really feels like a lose-lose sometimes as a ride op.
I hope that clears up some of the frustration former Ride Ops have with the RAP being exploited. Once again, Ride ops do not get to decide who can use it and we know there are reasons people need it that are not visible, but after thousands of hours of working, we do experience a couple bad apples.
Sorry in advance for this massive wall of text, I refrained from jumping in but wanted to give my perspective as a former ride op supervisor who has had hundreds of interactions with those using a Rider Access Pass. There are hundreds of reasons why someone might need a RAP, many of which are not visible. RAP are also more than a skip the line tool. They also tell the rider and the ride op's what rides they can and can not ride based on their condition, such as those with cast, prosthetics, amputee limbs, and those who need help with transfers from wheelchairs.
I will preface this with the fact that the new IBCCES Accessibility Card was not in effect when I worked at KD but the RAP was being exploited at times. The most egregious was a party of 4 using two different RAP to effectively cut their wait in two. At the end of the day, we as ride op's are not there to decide who gets RAP or judge those who use it, but we do see how often people use it to game the system at times. However, at the same time there are so many people who need it and use it properly. Something that stuck out to me working, was how you end up interacting more with people who use the RAP. They come up to the exit and you get to go talk to them, ask how their day is going and it is overall a friendly interaction. They understand that they are skipping the line but are then given a wait time until their next ride. When these guest are local's, you end up seeing them multiple times a year and you can build quite the relationship with them. There was this family whose little boy was on the spectrum who loved the White Water Canyon, and I mean loved. They were at the park every weekend and multiple times during the week. The parents didn't always ride, so sometimes while waiting near the exit I got to talk to them and they were always so appreciative of us at the ride and how nice we treated their child. But there are also people who would act like they owned the ride when they had a RAP. They would just walk to the exit and wave around the green sheet of paper or yell at you that they are "waiting". They would complain that the line is shorter than the wait them we gave them or say we waited to long to board them. You would also see them always ride a quick wait them ride right before a major ride on their pass. While allowed and perfectly fine to do, it shows that they knew how the system worked when they would ride something with a 5 min wait before something with an hour wait back and forth the entire day. When you interacted with them, such as how has your day been? They would just go would be better if you gave me a short wait time, or stuff like that. What made it even worse, was then people in the standby line would then get upset that we let them on right away. So the RAP riders would be mad that we waited one cycle before letting them on and then guest in line would also be mad at us for making them wait. It really feels like a lose-lose sometimes as a ride op.
I hope that clears up some of the frustration former Ride Ops have with the RAP being exploited. Once again, Ride ops do not get to decide who can use it and we know there are reasons people need it that are not visible, but after thousands of hours of working, we do experience a couple bad apples.
Anecdotally, this entitlement is a lot more visible to the everyday able-bodied customer than any sort of grace exhibited by regular users of the ADA system. It doesn't help that millennials generationally have chosen to give up on parenting in favor of diagnoses, so loudly entitled children leading large groups are never corrected about the fact that their demanding attitudes are inappropriate, and the parents couldn't care less anyways because "screw those waiting" and "my child is different." So everyone, users, non-users, and abusers, ends up with a system they think sucks, and front-line low wage employees are left in the line of fire. We then look at those same employees for answers when things like the Stardust Racers incident occur, and leave absolutely 0 personal responsibility for the rider even though the employees themselves are not empowered to question anything. Just kinda sucks if u ask me
Good write up there @Mattatee - and I agree you as a ride op have little control over who gets RAP and who doesn't, and you are just doing what you are trained to do.
I feel for myself (and others), the bad actors are what ruin it. As you say, basically the people who know how to game the system and you can't really do anything about it.
Just giving an example of what bothers us (most likely, don't want to speak for others) is those people. Who use RAP to skip the line, for say TT with a 50 min wait, which cool, they are told if they were there at Noon to ride, you can't come back while I am waiting 50 minutes. But after riding, during their 50 minute wait, those bad actors can get over to Apple Zapple and ride then get that time for 30 minutes later. Then get over to Racer and get that time for 20 minutes later. Go to Jukebox for a drink and fries to snack on. Get another ride on Apple Zapple. Then go back to the exit for TT.
Meanwhile I'm still in line for TT.
I know it's extremely unlikely with those bad actors that you can stop them from doing anything while in that wait time, but I think it's those types of situations that get frustrating. Especially with @RollyCoaster 's demonstration of how easily you can get that temp card from IBCCES that many parks will accept. I know IBCCES has a human verify (it seems) the claims, but this is where the use of AI can get really bad - forging doctors notes on these things to apply for IBCCES 24 or less hours before visiting, to go get RAP, and create account after account to get this.
Now that I've had some time to think more about this I feel like there's some things that could help smooth this all out, and some of it doesn't start with parks:
I feel for myself (and others), the bad actors are what ruin it. As you say, basically the people who know how to game the system and you can't really do anything about it.
Just giving an example of what bothers us (most likely, don't want to speak for others) is those people. Who use RAP to skip the line, for say TT with a 50 min wait, which cool, they are told if they were there at Noon to ride, you can't come back while I am waiting 50 minutes. But after riding, during their 50 minute wait, those bad actors can get over to Apple Zapple and ride then get that time for 30 minutes later. Then get over to Racer and get that time for 20 minutes later. Go to Jukebox for a drink and fries to snack on. Get another ride on Apple Zapple. Then go back to the exit for TT.
Meanwhile I'm still in line for TT.
I know it's extremely unlikely with those bad actors that you can stop them from doing anything while in that wait time, but I think it's those types of situations that get frustrating. Especially with @RollyCoaster 's demonstration of how easily you can get that temp card from IBCCES that many parks will accept. I know IBCCES has a human verify (it seems) the claims, but this is where the use of AI can get really bad - forging doctors notes on these things to apply for IBCCES 24 or less hours before visiting, to go get RAP, and create account after account to get this.
Now that I've had some time to think more about this I feel like there's some things that could help smooth this all out, and some of it doesn't start with parks:
- IBCCES's system should start the way it does - just limit the ability to have as many accounts as possible.
- Before it's reviewed by a person IBCCES should issue a card the says "Temporary"
- Instead of just a human putting eyes on it, I wish they would bring in a 'two side" authentication where the doctor verifies they did sign off
- This is where the parks come in - there should be reasonable limitations with the "temporary" IBCCES pass
- I wouldn't mind seeing a ride "tier" system put in place where each tier has a limit to number of times per hour you can ride it
- Along with the tier system, use park attendance to limit rides per hour.
Against all odds, they fucking approved it at 10:41 PM last night.
If this doesn’t prove how flawed the system is, I’m not sure what else does.
And no, it will never actually be used. I did this simply to prove how easy it is to get one and how basically anyone can get approved for one.
If this doesn’t prove how flawed the system is, I’m not sure what else does.
And no, it will never actually be used. I did this simply to prove how easy it is to get one and how basically anyone can get approved for one.
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I use the RAP at BG
If i sign up for a time say on Alpie I cannot sign up for another ride until that time has passed. So for those thinking you can just stack times NO you can't
The issue isn't stacking times normally (though there have been instances where multiple people in a party will get separate RAPs and then use them to collect additional, overlapping times). Normal double-dipping is when a RAP user gets a time and then goes and rides something else in the meantime.