Thing 342 said:
It seems most people also feel, that they are required to make sure everyone agrees with them or call them names.
Why can't the park do anything good enough for the users here?
- Thread starter Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser
- Start date
It seems most people also feel, that they are required to make sure everyone agrees with them or call them names.
My question isn't so much, "Why to people complain about the park?" It's more like "Why do people focus on the negative?". I've said it before, but the vibe from some people comes off like they're unable to enjoy the park.
PzP said:
Maybe because we believe that most of what has happened in the past few years has been negative...?
I've said time and time again that Howl-O-Scream has been getting exponentially better year after year. The same is true for Christmas Town and IllumiNights. Apart from the special events and a pretzel shop, what has the park given us the last few years that's really worthy of praise?
Look, I get it PzP, you like rides. That's just fine with me. I like theming. I like to spend a day at the park and enjoy the park for its theme and feel. I ride a few things each time but that's not what I spend the day doing. In my mind, the park is throwing away what made it into what it is today: Its focus on detail and theme. It blows my mind that a park that once had an area themed to a medieval English fair now has rides themed to an airport, a 240ft maypole, and a travel agency.
Haberdasher put it best.
From here. If you haven't read it yet, read it now.
FAL NR OX said:
Yeah, that's it- I don't want to have fun. My bad guys- FAL NR OX identified the real problem.
Honestly, I think what PzP is getting at is the almost communal reflexive negative reaction to any change. Often, the go to response is "I hate it, It's destroying the park, just one more step toward the park's demise..." Then everybody piles on and it's a race to the bottom to see who can outdo one another with negativity. Keep in mind, most of this is about stuff that's ANNOUNCED. That no one had ever seen. Go back to the beginning of the Verbolton thread for the clearest example.
People are entitled to their opinions obviously. And I respect most opinions that are well thought out and articulated even if I don't agree with them. We're all going to see things differently, so I can appreciate not everything is going to please everyone.
That being said, I think people (and this community) would benefit sometimes by reserving judgement, particularly harsher judgement, on things until they can experience them themselves in their fuller context. I'm still withholding a full opinion on the Oktoberfest changes because I've said from the beginning I believe you have to view it completed, with the Festhaus changes, with Verbolton up and running, with the Oompah bands playing in the beer garden, with the taps flowing along the path next to the pretzel shop. I'm waiting until I can view the experience in full swing before passing judgement on if I prefer the "new" vs. the "old." Heck, even I'm still not sure what I think about Entwined, and I've actually seen it. I think I need to let it "soak in" a bit more before I can make a decision about it.
We aren't required to have an extreme position on everything one way or another the second we find out about. It's ok to learn about it, experience it, and still be a little unsure. We're not in a war or anything. No need to draw battle lines.
People are entitled to their opinions obviously. And I respect most opinions that are well thought out and articulated even if I don't agree with them. We're all going to see things differently, so I can appreciate not everything is going to please everyone.
That being said, I think people (and this community) would benefit sometimes by reserving judgement, particularly harsher judgement, on things until they can experience them themselves in their fuller context. I'm still withholding a full opinion on the Oktoberfest changes because I've said from the beginning I believe you have to view it completed, with the Festhaus changes, with Verbolton up and running, with the Oompah bands playing in the beer garden, with the taps flowing along the path next to the pretzel shop. I'm waiting until I can view the experience in full swing before passing judgement on if I prefer the "new" vs. the "old." Heck, even I'm still not sure what I think about Entwined, and I've actually seen it. I think I need to let it "soak in" a bit more before I can make a decision about it.
We aren't required to have an extreme position on everything one way or another the second we find out about. It's ok to learn about it, experience it, and still be a little unsure. We're not in a war or anything. No need to draw battle lines.
Why to we always focus on the negative?
It's actually pretty simple. Negativity is a knee-jerk reaction to a drastic change that something goes through. Whether it's Facebook's annual changes, changes in gaming trends to appeal to general audiences over hardcore gamers (Wii), or the many times KD fanboys cried foul when I-305 was announced/built.
It's pretty clear BGW is changing whether we like it or not. It's pretty natural for parks to make major changes (even Disney falls victim to refurbishing rides and changing themes, whether the park needs them or not). They're removing older shows and replacing them. Older rides are taken out and newer ones come in. Is this a good thing? It really depends. Do I think the park should sometimes take a different approach to rehabbing/updating? Yes. But I'm not gonna be quick to criticize the park's business decisions, especially when a lot of these decisions are made behind closed doors where we're not given the big picture as to why "X" is being removed or changed.
Perfect example... Like I've said a few times before, I've never been a fan of the park removing a classic family attraction (Le Mans) for Griffon, which felt like a half-baked effort to build something because Tampa already had one. The park could've done so much with Griffon's theming (Sheikra seems to have a great theme that fits with its surroundings, while Griffon's theme seems to be nonexistent) and the park could've definitely tried to shoehorn Griffon into France without touching too much of the raceway. I don't really know why the park decided to get rid of the raceway (which is now becoming a dying breed). But Griffon is here to stay regardless.
JUst my 2 cents...
It's actually pretty simple. Negativity is a knee-jerk reaction to a drastic change that something goes through. Whether it's Facebook's annual changes, changes in gaming trends to appeal to general audiences over hardcore gamers (Wii), or the many times KD fanboys cried foul when I-305 was announced/built.
It's pretty clear BGW is changing whether we like it or not. It's pretty natural for parks to make major changes (even Disney falls victim to refurbishing rides and changing themes, whether the park needs them or not). They're removing older shows and replacing them. Older rides are taken out and newer ones come in. Is this a good thing? It really depends. Do I think the park should sometimes take a different approach to rehabbing/updating? Yes. But I'm not gonna be quick to criticize the park's business decisions, especially when a lot of these decisions are made behind closed doors where we're not given the big picture as to why "X" is being removed or changed.
Perfect example... Like I've said a few times before, I've never been a fan of the park removing a classic family attraction (Le Mans) for Griffon, which felt like a half-baked effort to build something because Tampa already had one. The park could've done so much with Griffon's theming (Sheikra seems to have a great theme that fits with its surroundings, while Griffon's theme seems to be nonexistent) and the park could've definitely tried to shoehorn Griffon into France without touching too much of the raceway. I don't really know why the park decided to get rid of the raceway (which is now becoming a dying breed). But Griffon is here to stay regardless.
JUst my 2 cents...
PzP said:
First of all, when I said this, I felt that some people were misinterpruting what I was asking as "Why do people complain?" which was not the case. I wasn't calling anybody out, but just clarifying my question.
Swiftman said:
It's not that I don't see that the park has been making mistakes, I just don't see this as a path to ultimate destruction in the park. I also don't see as detrimental to the enjoyment of the park. I think that Verbolten is a /huge/ step forward for the park after EitA and MT. Even the fact that the park wants to put on a large production like Entwined is a good step, if they put it somewhere else it would be a great addition to the park. Both are immensely themed and I don't think they should be condemned simply because they don't fit a specific set of guidelines.
Themeing is important to rides, not essential, but important. EitA was a fluke IMO, that was a travesty both as a ride and with the themeing. I honestly can see Corkscrew Hill returning next year. To point at three rides for breaking that specific theme when plenty of other good rides have broken that theme in the past the past that have broken that theme doesn't really say that much. The park is still is themed years beyond any Cedar Fair or Six Flags park
Shafor said:Honestly, I think what PzP is getting at is the almost communal reflexive negative reaction to any change. Often, the go to response is "I hate it, It's destroying the park, just one more step toward the park's demise..." Then everybody piles on and it's a race to the bottom to see who can outdo one another with negativity. Keep in mind, most of this is about stuff that's ANNOUNCED. That no one had ever seen. Go back to the beginning of the Verbolton thread for the clearest example.
People are entitled to their opinions obviously. And I respect most opinions that are well thought out and articulated even if I don't agree with them. We're all going to see things differently, so I can appreciate not everything is going to please everyone.
That being said, I think people (and this community) would benefit sometimes by reserving judgement, particularly harsher judgement, on things until they can experience them themselves in their fuller context. I'm still withholding a full opinion on the Oktoberfest changes because I've said from the beginning I believe you have to view it completed, with the Festhaus changes, with Verbolton up and running, with the Oompah bands playing in the beer garden, with the taps flowing along the path next to the pretzel shop. I'm waiting until I can view the experience in full swing before passing judgement on if I prefer the "new" vs. the "old." Heck, even I'm still not sure what I think about Entwined, and I've actually seen it. I think I need to let it "soak in" a bit more before I can make a decision about it.
We aren't required to have an extreme position on everything one way or another the second we find out about. It's ok to learn about it, experience it, and still be a little unsure. We're not in a war or anything. No need to draw battle lines.
THANK YOU!
That is what I'm trying to say. To be honest, I think I might enjoy the “New” Oktoberfest.
Haberdasher1973 said:
It's not that I'm not understanding your responses. Some of the answers are satisfying, your blog post actually helped quite a bit. However, some of the minor changes like the minor renaming of Aquitine to France (on the maps and whatnot) or a ride not being themed to a specific time period and how they're they have any significant impact on the park simply baffle me. I also never said it's my problem, but I felt that I saw enough negativity that I wanted to know why there was so much.
netdvn said:
This is another great explaination.
FAL NR OX said:
PzP had a considerable number of posts to respond to. No need to be snarky.
That's what PzP is here for.
Yeah, for me, the issue is the stylistic shift...not that they're making changes. I am actually not averse to change - I just prefer that it be change for the better. Some of that is subjective, and some of it really isn't.
Examples of good changes: Adding a table service restaurant. Adding a night-time spectacular show.
Examples of changes that can go either way: Adding new rides. Adding new shows.
Examples of changes I don't like: ditching European theming for Euro-inspired theming. Half-stepping between beer hall and kindergarten show. Dumbing everything down to King's Dominion levels (red train. France.)
If you're a rides guy, I would think the changes make the park better, in your eyes. However, if you're not a rides guy...
Ultimately, to answer your question, I'd put it this way: we "fans" complain about the changes because they are changing the things that made us fans in the first place. It's like the UFC...if you became a UFC fan because you liked watching karate masters go up against sumo wrestlers in no-holds-barred cage fighting, you might have a pretty negative outlook on today's highly regulated, very homogenous mixed martial arts. You became a fan for one reason, and now the thing you are a fan of has gone a completely different direction. This unhappiness will be compounded if you think that the changes are likely to cause harm to the business you are a fan of - and before you reiterate that "they know what they're doing," let me say that that is in no way a safe assumption, as businesses of this type veer off in the wrong direction all the time, up to and including the point of going completely out of business.
Examples of good changes: Adding a table service restaurant. Adding a night-time spectacular show.
Examples of changes that can go either way: Adding new rides. Adding new shows.
Examples of changes I don't like: ditching European theming for Euro-inspired theming. Half-stepping between beer hall and kindergarten show. Dumbing everything down to King's Dominion levels (red train. France.)
If you're a rides guy, I would think the changes make the park better, in your eyes. However, if you're not a rides guy...
Ultimately, to answer your question, I'd put it this way: we "fans" complain about the changes because they are changing the things that made us fans in the first place. It's like the UFC...if you became a UFC fan because you liked watching karate masters go up against sumo wrestlers in no-holds-barred cage fighting, you might have a pretty negative outlook on today's highly regulated, very homogenous mixed martial arts. You became a fan for one reason, and now the thing you are a fan of has gone a completely different direction. This unhappiness will be compounded if you think that the changes are likely to cause harm to the business you are a fan of - and before you reiterate that "they know what they're doing," let me say that that is in no way a safe assumption, as businesses of this type veer off in the wrong direction all the time, up to and including the point of going completely out of business.
DoctorMoneyMD said:
I have a huge problem with this statement. The park still sticks to a Euro theme with everything besides it's special events. I.E. Mach Tower is based off a may pole, which is European. The Festhaus is not a real beer hall, and should not be treated like one. Unlike a real beer hall, the purpose of the Festhaus is not to have a place for adults go to get drunk. It should be treated like a family restaurant with a show venue, even though I agree that Entwined should not be there.
Let's break down KD theming Vs BG theming.
King's Dominion---Busch Gardens Williamsburg
Most recent coaster name: Intimidator 305, very generic.---Verbolten, very German.
Popular snack food: Boardwalk Fries, a franchise food.---German Pretzels, original recipe.
Shows: Country Music---Still some good ones, thematically way above anything KD has.
New Uniforms: Same thing for each ride in the park.---A bit more generic, but still differs by hamlet and are colored according the country.
Animals: Squirrel!---I don't need to explain anything here, especially since in recent years, the park has beefed up their animal section.
Flat Rides: Only one ride is actually themed.--- Most (not all) of the flat rides are themed.
Christmas town (Yes, Swift, I'm bringing up a special event): Closed for season.---PENGUINS!
While it might not be what it was, comparing it to KD is a stretch IMO.
As much as I prefer the old school throw you stein in the air and slosh your brew out, the parks is subtly modernizing the park while maintaining a fully immersible theme. You can disagree with the Festhaus retheming all you want to but it is bringing a storybook side of Germany out which can be just as engulfing as 1970s German beer heyday. If they head for a full theme of that and improve the live action characters then the park could be headed for a very exciting future.
Atlantis said:
I completely agree with this statement, and I think people are missing this point: I don't think the park is spinning out of control. I think it is purposely changing into something that it wasn't before. They have gone cartoon in Oktoberfest, put Sesame Street characters in places they thematically don't belong, etc. The changes they are making fit the NEW direction of the park just perfectly. It is the NEW direction that some of us oppose.
I became a "BGW fan" because BGW was a certain way. It is now becoming something different than it was before. It's not a mindless freefall into obscurity. It's an intentional change in direction.
I am not as sure that the changes will end up being received positively by the GP, in the long run. Maybe they will. Time will tell us. Ultimately, however, all of the complaints are about what each of us, individually, thinks about the place...what each of us, individually, takes away from the changes.
I am not personally interested in the place becoming Disneyland. I love Disneyland, but BGW has historically had an entirely different character. Similar approach (clean, charming, family oriented), but different character. I like them for different reasons. I'd like to see them remain as different as they have historically been. I don't think I'm going to win out in this, and it is a little depressing. Oh well.
DoctorMoneyMD said:
O, you won't.
Don't worry though, you're not the only one who things things are being pushed in a bad direction.
Yeah Doc, I think the general consensus is, is that the park is making changes. Some for the good, Some for the bad. I think where everyone disagreeing with you doc, is that it *seems* you think all the changes are bad. I agree the park needs more shows like they used to have, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you there... But some people just enjoy the new shows. Doesn't mean they are good, or better. I think the park could use more, and I think they need a change in direction as far as what they are doing with the shows... But overall, even with these changes, it's still busch.
Youhow2 said:
The title of this thread is: Why can't the park do anything good enough for the users here?
It just seems that with a lot of people, the only thing they say are criticism or disappointment of the park. Can't people just think, "Hey, the park made a Star Wars reference, that's really cool." Also, it's just a theme park.
Youhow2 said:
I like Mach Tower. I like the Pretzel shop (although I'm not a huge fan of the way it's been pulled off). I like Illuminights. I like that they restored the full DarKastle show. I like that they're doing Christmas Town. I like that HoS is likely to become an upcharge. I like that they are building a new ride where BBW used to be. I even like that they took down BBW to put up something new. I like that they've added seats to RPT. Believe it or not, I am a fan of change...things should change more often. I just like to se changes for the better, not changes for the worse.
Of course, it's subjective, but are people not allowed to dislike things?