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I saw someone bring up somewhere about the aesthetics of putting up a wall there or something like that. I think I came up with a great solution:

A ticket check gateway at the current FOF entry. Plant some trees and build a wall on the BGW side that looks like the wall of London City, and on the flip side at SP looks like a group of row homes. In the middle, from the BGW side it could look like a gate opening, and from the SP side it can be an allyway look to it. Or since this will still be FOF, on the SP side paint hillsides on it, and the part to BGW would look like a bridge.

A turnstyle in each direction with someone scanning tickets to let people through.
 
Joe said:
I think a question that needs to be answered is how the addition of this Sesame Place Williamsburg would impact attendance at Busch Gardens. As Nicole pointed out in her article, child-oriented parks such as LEGOLAND have been successful, but a distinction needs to be made that these parks are standalone and don't back up to a pre-existing family/adult-oriented park next door.

As far as I know, there's no existing barometer as to how building a new separately-gated children's park would perform. Would families who are primarily visiting for their children spend the same amount of time and money at Sesame Place as they would at Busch Gardens? Would the drop in Busch Gardens' attendance as it loses guests with young children to the new park be outweighed by the new benefits? I'm not saying the two-park system wouldn't work, but it has never been proven before.

In defense of the idea, Kings Dominion has been making great strides to cement themselves as the region's premier child-oriented theme park destination with their continued investments in their "world's largest" Planet Snoopy area. An entire park devoted to children would give SEAS a tremendous marketing edge against the folks in Doswell that might convince families to bring their wallets to Williamsburg instead.
Or it could do the opposite since at KD you get both for one ticket price. Believe me BGW watches KD like a hawk...why do you this this season all of a sudden CT is included in Membership.
 
WDWRLD said:
Or it could do the opposite since at KD you get both for one ticket price. Believe me BGW watches KD like a hawk...why do you this this season all of a sudden CT is included in Membership.

Planet Snoopy is roughly 270,000 sq ft.

Proposed Sesame Place is over 500,000 square feet.

Mid-summer gate price to KD is $69
Proposed two park pass to BGW/SP would be $100.

Only $30 for over double the size and (IMO) a better in park experience with BGW? Worth it IMO.

And to be frank....that doubled in size is important. The existing Sesame place is 606,000 square feet in comparison. And that park is $70. I don't think that the pricing would be that big of a deterrent.
 
I fee like Sesame Street just isn't cool enough for kids over the age of 6. Charlie Brown can go a bit further to the 10-12 year olds. I think Zachary is spot on with his 'wise investment' post. But I just can't seem to get behind the Sesame theme. Mey.....
 
warfelg said:
WDWRLD said:
Or it could do the opposite since at KD you get both for one ticket price. Believe me BGW watches KD like a hawk...why do you this this season all of a sudden CT is included in Membership.

Planet Snoopy is roughly 270,000 sq ft.

Proposed Sesame Place is over 500,000 square feet.

Mid-summer gate price to KD is $69
Proposed two park pass to BGW/SP would be $100.

Only $30 for over double the size and (IMO) a better in park experience with BGW?  Worth it IMO.

And to be frank....that doubled in size is important.  The existing Sesame place is 606,000 square feet in comparison.  And that park is $70.  I don't think that the pricing would be that big of a deterrent.
Have you not seen the online outrage over $2 a month for the new membership?
 
WDWRLD said:
Have you not seen the online outrage over $2 a month for the new membership?

That 'outrage' is a small part of the community. I'll put it this way. Where I were all three of us hold passes:
One guy doesn't ride much, basically it's to hang out and drink. He's "outraged".
The other doesn't really care, asked the difference, and upgraded because it was easy.
Me, I changed right away because I understood it was more.

The 'outrage' was people that were grandfathered in under prices from years, sometimes decades, ago. How many other place will let someone go that long without having to pay more?
 


warfelg said:
WDWRLD said:
Have you not seen the online outrage over $2 a month for the new membership?

That 'outrage' is a small part of the community.  I'll put it this way.  Where I were all three of us hold passes:
One guy doesn't ride much, basically it's to hang out and drink.  He's "outraged".
The other doesn't really care, asked the difference, and upgraded because it was easy.
Me, I changed right away because I understood it was more.

The 'outrage' was people that were grandfathered in under prices from years, sometimes decades, ago.  How many other place will let someone go that long without having to pay more?
I was making a joke
 
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I've thought it through a lot, and feel like I've formed my best opinion off the rumored information. IF they were to move forward, I think it would be most beneficial to have both gates in the same entry plaza sharing the same parking/tram operations. The shared backstage areas helps too. I think it is most beneficial to have the gates sharing the same entry plaza so people are all in the same area seeing SPW and BGW. They're more enticed to visit both, or worst case, its free advertising for when the children get older and want the bigger thrills. Universal benefits tremendously from having the gates side by side and I personally feel like this is a trend the public is wanting.

I also agree with Zach on this one. In a worst case scenario, this is the safest financially. However, hearing this news I did a little poll at work and we have 60 people working in my office. So far, I've found that 2 in 3 people have heard of SP Pennsylvania. 1 in 3 have actually been either as a child, or have taken their children. Most have heard of BGW, but few have been. Most have or are starting their families. Those that have started their family, have heard of Sesame Place. I work and live in the DC Metro area. This is a huge gateway (I believe just over 6 million people) that I feel is quite the missed opportunity for the park. Most people I know make an annual day trip to KD, but can't bring themselves to do an overnight to Williamsburg. Heck, most people in my office had no idea that BGW has Water Country.

Being that most people in my office are fairly young, and have/are starting families, it would seem that the trip to Williamsburg is so much more enticing with the third gate. It, also, opens the opportunity for a resort hotel, if it proved financially viable. It does have two draw backs. SP Pennsylvania would lose all of these customers (unless they bought a multi-pass). Parking. IF they do nothing to beef up parking, I'd be pretty upset.

I could be wrong and a huge number of DC Metro residents go to BGW, but not in my office. I'm one of few who go regularly, even fewer have been in the last five years, and a significant portion have never been. Like I said, I could be totally wrong, but most people I know view this as a great idea IF they are going to have, or have young kids. Me personally, I'd enjoy the spur of the moment character meet & greet from time to time, but other than that, I'd walk right by it.

Plus, I have plenty of nieces and nephews that are going to be the perfect age come 2021, which is the year I believe the park is promised.
 
musicman3204 said:
I've thought it through a lot, and feel like I've formed my best opinion off the rumored information.  IF they were to move forward, I think it would be most beneficial to have both gates in the same entry plaza sharing the same parking/tram operations.  The shared backstage areas helps too.  I think it is most beneficial to have the gates sharing the same entry plaza so people are all in the same area seeing SPW and BGW.  They're more enticed to visit both, or worst case, its free advertising for when the children get older and want the bigger thrills.  Universal benefits tremendously from having the gates side by side and I personally feel like this is a trend the public is wanting.  

I also agree with Zach on this one.  In a worst case scenario, this is the safest financially.  However, hearing this news I did a little poll at work and we have 60 people working in my office.  So far, I've found that 2 in 3 people have heard of SP Pennsylvania.  1 in 3 have actually been either as a child, or have taken their children.  Most have heard of BGW, but few have been.  Most have or are starting their families.  Those that have started their family, have heard of Sesame Place.  I work and live in the DC Metro area.  This is a huge gateway (I believe just over 6 million people) that I feel is quite the missed opportunity for the park.  Most people I know make an annual day trip to KD, but can't bring themselves to do an overnight to Williamsburg.  Heck, most people in my office had no idea that BGW has Water Country.  

Being that most people in my office are fairly young, and have/are starting families, it would seem that the trip to Williamsburg is so much more enticing with the third gate.  It, also, opens the opportunity for a resort hotel, if it proved financially viable.  It does have two draw backs.  SP Pennsylvania would lose all of these customers (unless they bought a multi-pass).  Parking.  IF they do nothing to beef up parking, I'd be pretty upset.

I could be wrong and a huge number of DC Metro residents go to BGW, but not in my office.  I'm one of few who go regularly, even fewer have been in the last five years, and a significant portion have never been.  Like I said, I could be totally wrong, but most people I know view this as a great idea IF they are going to have, or have young kids.  Me personally, I'd enjoy the spur of the moment character meet & greet from time to time, but other than that, I'd walk right by it.  

Plus, I have plenty of nieces and nephews that are going to be the perfect age come 2021, which is the year I believe the park is promised.

Based on friends and peers, DC is the "splitting" line.

From DC, it's a 2.5 hour drive to Williamsburg from DC. And in the reason alone is to visit parks and history, you got BGW, WCUSA, and Historic Williamsburg.

But 2.5 hours the other way, you got HP with the Boardwalk, Dutch Wonderland, Amish culture. Another hour east and you hit SPP, Independence Hall, Liberty Bell, Art Museum, 4 professional sports teams. I think for a family taking a week long trip with young kids, going the Lancaster/Philly area offers more than BGW.

If you go south from us in central VA, I think you can go quite far into NC, almost to SC, where if the families want to take a multi day trip that includes a park, that BGW is the area.

As someone that lived in NE, PA, and now VA...I can tell you there's certain area's you just didn't cross because of ease or knowing the traffic or just you feel there's better things that fit your families interest.

Like when I lived in CT, we never crossed south of NYC unless it was to visit family. Never went to Dorney, Sesame place, Six Flags NJ. Went to Lake Compounce (it was only 4 miles away), Six Flags NE, and about 3-4 other local small parks.

When we moved to PA, never went back to those NE parks. It was always HP, Dorney, Sesame Place (when I was a camp counselor), and Six Flags NJ.

Now down here it's all KD, BGW.

Personally I think a SPW won't hurt SPP at all, but rather it will keep that one a small regional kids park. SPW will push the SEAS Williamsburg parks into the multi-day destination.

There's not many examples of what they are proposing. The closest is SWO, DC, Aquatica trifecta. But DW and Uni overshadow it. It's not a huge multigate resort a la Disney's US parks, or Universal Orlando. It's the smaller regional version of that. I think it would push SEAS Williamsburg properties from Mid-Atlantic regional to North East Regional. Puts it in that Cedar Point territory.

Sorry that was long, but basically I think SEAS is thinking about how can we pull those people to a place where we have multiple gates and get them to stay longer, as opposed to a place where the gate is a single thing to do in a busy place where their stay might be shorter.
 
Zimmy said:
WDWRLD said:
I could see LotD tree house staying but the three rides being moved. Honestly the others like the airplanes and horses just whouldnt fit the theme.

Where do you see any evidence of this. It is almost like you are looking for things to be upset about.

I never said I had any evidence, I said I could see them moving just those three and I’m not upset about that, just could see that happen. I’m not against the SP coming, I just don’t think the parking lot is the place for it but I really don’t have any better idea where it could go.
 
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I personally in a way hope there is some physical connection to BGW, because if they are two separate entities with a under five year old i can see us spending a whole visit in SPW. While never actually getting to BGW. Not that i mind that because my daughter is first but I don't get there enough as is. If the two are connected i can try to entice my daughter into the park we enjoy as well lol. That way if im only able to make one trip a year it can be to both and everyone will be happy lol.
 
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I mean, sharing a general entry gate area seems like a pretty close approximation to connecting the parks.  They would both be right there. Maybe the up/downhill walk to and from the England gate would be a bit of a pain, but not too bad... even with little ones in tow.

Though if the two parks were connected internally at the railroad crossing and opened at roughly the same time, maybe multi-park passholders would have an easier way to enter BGW than to use the England gate...! A nice theoretical perk.
 
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warfelg said:
Based on friends and peers, DC is the "splitting" line.

From DC, it's a 2.5 hour drive to Williamsburg from DC.  And in the reason alone is to visit parks and history, you got BGW, WCUSA, and Historic Williamsburg.

But 2.5 hours the other way, you got HP with the Boardwalk, Dutch Wonderland, Amish culture.  Another hour east and you hit SPP, Independence Hall, Liberty Bell, Art Museum, 4 professional sports teams.  I think for a family taking a week long trip with young kids, going the Lancaster/Philly area offers more than BGW.

I live in Arlington and work in DC. I can promise you that in no universe is the drive to BGW only 2.5 hours. On a good day, I can get there in three. I95 in Virginia is always a nightmare, especially north of Frederickburg, and I64 has been bad, since they started construction.

That said, I agree about the split. Living on the Virginia side, I hate going north, because there is simply no easy way to get there. I think I probably have a mental block, as well. Regardless, I would always prefer to go to Virginia than Maryland or Pennsylvania.

I also agree that most people I know up here either go to SFA or KD. Williamsburg is a difficult day trip. Those who I know who do go to southeast Virginia, generally are interested in CW or going farther south to the beach.

I don't know if this would make BGW a resort destination, but I think (hope) it could.
 
Sorry the 2.5 was from Google. I’ve pulled it off once, with express in my favor, and ignoring a few laws. But the types of roads you driver certainly play a part. DC and north I95 is all 3 lanes and traffic hauls. Leaving at the right time last summer I got Richmond to NYC in 7.5 hours going all I95.

But yea for some reason certain “mental blocks” to day trip travels. Like I got a friend in LA who considers Vegas a day trip because you can fly for $150 round trip and it only takes an hour.

As for making BGW a resort destination, it pushes it to a multi day visit at least, especially if they package everything correctly. I personally think there’s the “long weekend” gap in the theme park world. Because to me, Universal is a 4 day minimum (plus 2 for travel); Disney is a 5 day minimum (plays 2 for travel). BGW could slide in nicely as a 2 day minimum (1 day at BGW, 1/2 at SP, 1/2 at WCUSA), possible 3 full days, and be a place parents only need to take 2 days off to make a long weekend of.
 
warfelg said:
As for making BGW a resort destination, it pushes it to a multi day visit at least, especially if they package everything correctly. I personally think there’s the “long weekend” gap in the theme park world. Because to me, Universal is a 4 day minimum (plus 2 for travel); Disney is a 5 day minimum (plays 2 for travel). BGW could slide in nicely as a 2 day minimum (1 day at BGW, 1/2 at SP, 1/2 at WCUSA), possible 3 full days, and be a place parents only need to take 2 days off to make a long weekend of.
This is what we normally do we leave on a Thursday spend fri, sat, and sunday at the park and leave monday morning. Normally we do it around HOS time so we can do all the houses with out having to rush. Since this year will be our first with our daughter in attendance the days will be all about her while we will enjoy the nights as she will be with grandma during the evening.
 
No interest at all. Further based on SEAS loans and liabilities that exceed the entire value of the park system by nearly $500M. Who's going to loan them money to build this?

Sure they have some operating capital, but if they spend that they essentially downgrade the stock and their ability to make payments on their liabilities to a point no one will continue loaning money when needed.

I mean seriously, they took issue at the financial aspects of keeping Darkastle open while adding a new VR ride. Does anyone honestly think they can handle this without reallocating park resources to keep something like this running when they can't even fully staff the current parks...

Not only the financial aspects of it all, SEAS needs to overall improve their management, parks, marketing and the perception of the system before they go expanding or spending money needlessly.
 
I'm not sure that we ever saw an official from-the-park reason for DK being closed. Overall assumption is certainly financial; it is possible that in its current state it was not 'too expensive', but to upgrade everything as a full refresh with current technologies did not make financial sense. Adding Battle for Eire (VR) would 'fill the void' left by the loss of the immersive 3D ride Darkastle.
I am sure management spent a lot of research and discussion on the public outcry of the closure prior to making any decisions. That said they also gain another all-weather HOS space as well as a solid location for Santa Clause(s). I hope to see that efficient use is made of the building in other seasons as well, since I too enjoyed DK (and my wife continues to quote all of the puns very regularly).

Back to the subject of this thread:
SPW would be built to a configuration that would be anticipated to self-sustain - not just ticket sales, but also employment concerns. Sharing services (parking, trams, ticket window personnel, kitchens) means a lower expected revenue to still operate in the black. The company I work for is doing a good bit of shared services right now - marketing, HR, finance are quick examples; before long it will hit my department too. Economy of scale; the advantage SEAS/BGW has is that they're looking at it within the same ZIP code (my employer is spread across the country at soon-to-be 40 sites). An overall reduction of expenses for SPW means they can have less revenue and sustain vs. building the park even ten minutes away (though BGW and WC share a fair bit of services, including food service).

Your point on the debt ratio is very valid. If I were a bank, I would be hard pressed to say "Here's $200M, bring it back soon!".
 
The ability to share things to keep costs down is something they've been trying to do more of, such as consolidating corporate and marketing in Orlando. I think this could share services with bgw and also save money buy sharing SP branded things with the other sesame park. This strategy is why i am still so puzzled by WCUSA and Adventure Isle. Why has one not been changed to match the other? All other parks line up, including all three Aquatica parks. It saves money to share a "brand", it increases name recognition and frankly it just looks better.
 
warfelg said:
Based on friends and peers, DC is the "splitting" line.

From DC, it's a 2.5 hour drive to Williamsburg from DC.  And in the reason alone is to visit parks and history, you got BGW, WCUSA, and Historic Williamsburg.

But 2.5 hours the other way, you got HP with the Boardwalk, Dutch Wonderland, Amish culture.  Another hour east and you hit SPP, Independence Hall, Liberty Bell, Art Museum, 4 professional sports teams.  I think for a family taking a week long trip with young kids, going the Lancaster/Philly area offers more than BGW.

If you go south from us in central VA, I think you can go quite far into NC, almost to SC, where if the families want to take a multi day trip that includes a park, that BGW is the area.

As someone that lived in NE, PA, and now VA...I can tell you there's certain area's you just didn't cross because of ease or knowing the traffic or just you feel there's better things that fit your families interest.

Like when I lived in CT, we never crossed south of NYC unless it was to visit family.  Never went to Dorney, Sesame place, Six Flags NJ.  Went to Lake Compounce (it was only 4 miles away), Six Flags NE, and about 3-4 other local small parks.

When we moved to PA, never went back to those NE parks.  It was always HP, Dorney, Sesame Place (when I was a camp counselor), and Six Flags NJ.

Now down here it's all KD, BGW.

Personally I think a SPW won't hurt SPP at all, but rather it will keep that one a small regional kids park. SPW will push the SEAS Williamsburg parks into the multi-day destination.

There's not many examples of what they are proposing.  The closest is SWO, DC, Aquatica trifecta.  But DW and Uni overshadow it.  It's not a huge multigate resort a la Disney's US parks, or Universal Orlando.  It's the smaller regional version of that.  I think it would push SEAS Williamsburg properties from Mid-Atlantic regional to North East Regional.  Puts it in that Cedar Point territory.

Sorry that was long, but basically I think SEAS is thinking about how can we pull those people to a place where we have multiple gates and get them to stay longer, as opposed to a place where the gate is a single thing to do in a busy place where their stay might be shorter.

All of this is the reason I posted on here. A ton of insight to take back to my friends to discuss. We never even thought to give HP or DP the time of day in our polls. With that being said, a lot of the people at my office I have talked to (again) mostly go to KD. Reason? Thrill factor. Most seem to prefer KD over HP. That family factor though has them reconsidering in the next few years. All of the young families (upcoming and just started) seem to very impressionable in my office (marketing will be key).

Also, we live in the I-270 corridor just north of 370 and it regularly takes us upwards of 3.5 hours. Traffic through NOVA is just a bear. This is with us usually taking the EZPass lanes every time.
 
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