Sesame Place Williamsburg

[Alf33]

I don't really think SEAS is worried about paying for this new park as they are contractually obligated to build one. SEAS has $175mil left on a line of credit with a major bank that they can tap to get this going or fully fund it if that would pay for all of it if they don't finance it. Howerver that would eat up a lot or all of their available credit so I highly doubt they'll do that but they have this available. Now if they do finance it needs to get going now to be done to meet the agreement opening date. That and with the Fed raising interest rates the longer they wait the more they'll pay for the interest charge for financing. But as the old saying goes you have to spend money to make money. Regardless, building it like has been mentioned by other members will help the company out a lot in changing perceptions and reinforcing that the company is a family friendly place to visit which is needed. This is the direction the company seems to be going in anyways.

One of my first thoughts on this new park is whether it would be big enough to justify it being separate and of course having its own admission charge. It was great to see that warfelg posted the square footage sizes in an earlier post of his as this makes me believe it will be just big enough to be justified and survive. The real challenge with it is seeing that the age group that this is aimed is very young it will need to keep being a destination after the first two years of it's existence which is when the newness of it will probably be worn off. I believe it will as it will help the company and then BGW bring in new members when they get older and outgrow SPW.

 

[Pat]

I don't know how much money Sesame Workshop has to throw around. They could have plenty for all I know, but as a nonprofit maybe not. I know HBO picked up the rights to Sesame Street, but I don't know what they paid.

I remember reading when they made the HBO deal that Sesame Workshop was in pretty rough financial shape. Found an article from back when the deal was made in 2015 that they were operating at an $11 million loss the previous year. The article says HBO has a 5 year agreement to pay 10% of the annual production cost of roughly $40 million a year.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/b-is-broke-why-sesame-816105

I'm not great with finances, and I imagine there's a lot more to the deal, but this doesn't make it seem like there's a ton of money from Sesame Workshop. But, there is the deal that says the park needs to be built, and I'm very supportive of the idea of SPW.

 

[warfelg]

So, from a position of a planner, that's often sat in the middle of things like this I've seen it usually come down to 1 of 3 things:

1) The part of building another park was a red herring all along. With the agreement happening just last year, and both sides knowing that they were in financial trouble, one side put this in as a way to get out of the contract. This is actually kinda common, because then the sides can use the terms of the contract for the split as opposed to saying "They don't have the money to make it work".

2) On the other side, this could be one side ensuring that the other continues their investment into their product. Without SWork continuing to produce and give SEAS characters to work with, SEAS ensures they don't get left hanging; and on the flip SWork is making sure SEAS continues to put money into SP and IP lands, so SEAS soesn't make it once and let it sit.

3) That was put into place with the financing already in line. So this could have been a way to ensure they didn't sit on the financing and not construct something.

I'm likely leaning #3. SW knows SEAS has some financing, and if they continued they needed to find a way to ensure they grow the Sesame brand in SEAS, especially with CF doing more with Peanuts. If it was points 1 or 2, I would find it highly unlikely that they would be showing anything at all like this, and it's more likely they would just be letting it sit and put an extra ride in with generic themes to it.

If it's true that SEAS has $175 mil in financing available I wouldn't be shocked if internally they've already divided that out to something like:
$100 mil - A second Sesame place and general improvements to the park it goes to.
$30 to 40 mil - Project Madrid
$5 to 10 mil - General improvements
Remainder - catalog rides for other parks.

The two options there is push all the chips into the pot and take all the financing and have a "last stand" to save the parks by in one year injecting a bunch of life into the parks. That would be like a new ride at SWO, SWSD, BGT, mass improvements to SWSA, second SP gate, Project Madrid at BGW, and original SP getting a new ride, all the WC and Aquatica's getting updates. One year, every park getting something done to it. Risky, but the payoff in a chain wide excitement through mass improvements can be huge. IMO this is what SF did a few years ago when they were up against it. A few parks got huge projects, everyone got some type of stock ride, lots of rebranding and capitol improvements. Paid off.

The other side is slow roll all of this. Shelve Madrid for some time being, while pushing SPW. Get people excited for SPW, and use the excitement and revenue to put towards capitol improvements across the chain the next year, and pull some financing there if you need to. Then you let that push things some to get to Project Madrid. And just like SPW, use the money and excitement from Madrid to put in other rides at other parks. This is the safer play, but it could just mean a slower sinking ship.

Going more "big picture" with SEAS....they really need to push to move past Blackfish. Push BGW as your flagship park. Find a PETA friendly conservation group to partner with at your Sea World and Discovery Cove gates to get past the Blackfish by showing you want to bring in outside help. I know there's no way to make PETA 100% happy but if your showing the efforts, it can go a long way. Get a movie studio to highlight an effort by the park to save animals. Partner BGT with African Wildlife Foundation. Put in educational exhibits in all these parks written by who is partnered with the park. Play up the nostalgia craze. Bring back the "Old Country" theme. Go back to BGT's old style.

I think SEAS has been way too reactionary to the Blackfish thing and it still playing from behind in beating it. Tome for them to get out in front, push that they did things like that, and get groups with similar concerns to PETA to stand up and say "Yea SEAS has moved past it and with our help they are becoming a leader in ethical treatment."

 

[tursiops]

There's no negotiating with PETA. They would never settle on any middle ground. Plus a seasonal park cannot be your flagship. They have to right the ship in Orlando to succeed. If course that's my opinion, not fact.

 

[Peej1212]

Going more "big picture" with SEAS....they really need to push to move past Blackfish.  Push BGW as your flagship park.  Find a PETA friendly conservation group to partner with at your Sea World and Discovery Cove gates to get past the Blackfish by showing you want to bring in outside help.  I know there's no way to make PETA 100% happy but if your showing the efforts, it can go a long way.  Get a movie studio to highlight an effort by the park to save animals.  Partner BGT with African Wildlife Foundation.  Put in educational exhibits in all these parks written by who is partnered with the park.  Play up the nostalgia craze.  Bring back the "Old Country" theme.  Go back to BGT's old style.

I think SEAS has been way too reactionary to the Blackfish thing and it still playing from behind in beating it.  Tome for them to get out in front, push that they did things like that, and get groups with similar concerns to PETA to stand up and say "Yea SEAS has moved past it and with our help they are becoming a leader in ethical treatment."

I agree. BGW would be a great flagship park. I think with a little work this would be great for the company.

 

[CoasterAuditor]

They can all it whatever they want if it means BGW gets a ton of investment!

 

[Zachary]

Plus a seasonal park cannot be your flagship. They have to right the ship in Orlando to succeed.

Back when SEAS was trying to play on the same field as Disney and Universal, yeah, I'd agree with you. That said, I think the chain has fallen a long way since that time. SEAS is far more comparable to Hershand or Cedar Fair at this point. Both of those chains run very successful regional flagship parks.

 

[Alf33]

If it's true that SEAS has $175 mil in financing available I wouldn't be shocked if internally they've already divided that out to something like:
$100 mil - A second Sesame place and general improvements to the park it goes to.
$30 to 40 mil - Project Madrid
$5 to 10 mil - General improvements
Remainder - catalog rides for other parks.

The $175mil figure I referenced came from their 2017 Annual Report. Here's the text.
"As of December 31, 2017, SEA had approximately $19.1 million of outstanding letters of credit, leaving approximately $175.9 million available for borrowing."
So they do have it to use if they want. Too bad that don't have more than that to give them a little bit of a cushion or an emergency stash..

 

[GrandpaD]

In regards to costs, perhaps some might be overestimating build-out of the actual park. In 2012 it was estimated that KD spent about $6.5m to $7m ($7-7.5m in today's dollars) to build out the 14 acre Camp Snoopy from Kidzville. Same general principle of retheming existing rides and adding a couple plus improving existing flat ground for the expansion. Granted, parking, etc. have to be addressed, but I think the park itself could come in for less than $20m.

 

[mountaineers]

I was thinking 100+ million was too high also. But this will be more expensive than KD expansion of camp snoopy. The neighborhood area will be more expensive due to new buildings and theatre think KD didn't have as much of. Plus the water part will be more costly than just adding flats. I'm thinking around 50 million plus additional costs for other optional infrastructure improvements such as garages etc...

 

[mountaineers]

Anyone know how much SP spent on the wacky taxi roller coaster? My cost estimates didn't include another coaster, From what I can tell the survey didn't show an additional coaster but for me that should be added to attract additional attendance. 2 kiddie coasters is a big deal.

 

[Zachary]

I don't know that I'd expect a second coaster at opening, but it seems almost inevitable that one would be in a five or so year plan for the property.

I, for one, hope that OrlandoWeekly has it right and the rumors they've heard of a Sesame darkride being involved are correct. Toss a darkride into what we saw in the survey (shops, dining, shows, meet and greets, a few dry rides, water rides, etc) and I believe this theoretical park starts looking really solid.

 

[warfelg]

I was thinking 100+ million was too high also. But this will be more expensive than KD expansion of camp snoopy. The neighborhood area will be more expensive due to new buildings and theatre think KD didn't have as much of. Plus the water part will be more costly than just adding flats. I'm thinking around 50 million plus additional costs for other optional infrastructure improvements such as garages etc...

I was including the improvements for parking, front gate, ticketing changes, etc in that estimate. And went high end. When you are in the position that SEAS is in last thing you want to do is short on the cost and not properly finish.

 

[wombat96]

With all this discussion of expansion I have to say this design of putting the first phase of the park in the France parking lot is extremely ingenious if the park faces success. As Sesame Place Williamsburg would be located next to an expansion pad that requires minimal work other than removing the asphalt and a bridge connecting the France lot to the Germany lot along with the construction of mid sized parking garage to help with the loss of spaces.




Note: For anyone who noticed there’s a chance I colored the second expansion green in hopes that Williamsburg could see some iteration of Oscar’s Wacky Taxi. I mean there’s a chance I did this for that reason, maybe I just like the color green, similar to the support structure of Oscar’s Wacky Taxi.

Now I understand that a potential concern in this theoretical expansion is the connecting bridge being directly over the parks main entryway with cars traveling beneath. I think the park could theme it on the sides so the cars weren’t visible. This is done at Tokyo DisneySea where a cast member access road runs under one of the bridges and the park raised the sides with themes walls preventing guests from seeing this. The park could have themed sides from the parks guests view, while on the other other side the park could hang banners advertising the park for cars entering.

I’m all in for this expansion, although I do have a question of what the operating hours will be as a children park won’t need to be open until 10pm or 9pm on those longer operational days in the summers. Also, would there be a combined park ticket? I bring up this as I question how many hours of entertainment this park will provide for families compared to the already existing park? As I feel this park due to its size and lack of attractions will only lead to a few hours of entertainment while BGW will continue to provide a full day for parents with children. This could lead to confusion of which park to choose if one child was in the toddler “Kid”siderate age while there was also an older child in the family who many not enjoy the park as much. Either way I think with proper marketing this could be quite the success in Williamsburg.

 

[Zimmy]

here is my question. What happens to the cemetery?

 

[GrandpaD]

The potential expansion was already indicated on the questionnaire, which pointed to the treed area between France and England. Also a 1, 2 and 3 park prices were mentioned. SP in PA is open until 8p or 9pm depending on month.

The cemetery would make a great Howl O Scream attraction.

 

[warfelg]

With all this discussion of expansion I have to say this design of putting the first phase of the park in the France parking lot is extremely ingenious if the park faces success. As Sesame Place Williamsburg would be located next to an expansion pad that requires minimal work other than removing the asphalt and a bridge connecting the France lot to the Germany lot along with the construction of mid sized parking garage to help with the loss of spaces.




Note: For anyone who noticed there’s a chance I colored the second expansion green in hopes that Williamsburg could see some iteration of Oscar’s Wacky Taxi. I mean there’s a chance I did this for that reason, maybe I just like the color green, similar to the support structure of Oscar’s Wacky Taxi.

Now I understand that a potential concern in this theoretical expansion is the connecting bridge being directly over the parks main entryway with cars traveling beneath. I think the park could theme it on the sides so the cars weren’t visible. This is done at Tokyo DisneySea where a cast member access road runs under one of the bridges and the park raised the sides with themes walls preventing guests from seeing this. The park could have themed sides from the parks guests view, while on the other other side the park could hang banners advertising the park for cars entering.

I’m all in for this expansion, although I do have a question of what the operating hours will be as a children park won’t need to be open until 10pm or 9pm on those longer operational days in the summers. Also, would there be a combined park ticket? I bring up this as I question how many hours of entertainment this park will provide for families compared to the already existing park? As I feel this park due to its size and lack of attractions will only lead to a few hours of entertainment while BGW will continue to provide a full day for parents with children. This could lead to confusion of which park to choose if one child was in the toddler “Kid”siderate age while there was also an older child in the family who many not enjoy the park as much. Either way I think with proper marketing this could be quite the success in Williamsburg.

They already showed that expansion space would be in the open spot between the entry plaza and England parking.

 

[mountaineers]

In looking at the plans listed there appears to be a path leading out of the central park area of SP toward the Germany parking lot. I wonder if they plan on making this a possible entrance for people who already have tickets/passholders. If so, parking there would be just as easy as parking in England for passholders of both parks. I could get to the Festa Italia area from the Germany lot through SP quicker than from the England lot through the England/Scotland. This may be how they will mitigate the loss of the France lot. Germany becomes the second preferred lot.

 

[warfelg]

In looking at the plans listed there appears to be a path leading out of the central park area of SP toward the Germany parking lot.  I wonder if they plan on making this a possible entrance for people who already have tickets/passholders.  If so, parking there would be just as easy as parking in England for passholders of both parks.  I could get to the Festa Italia area from the Germany lot through SP quicker than from the England lot through the England/Scotland.  This may be how they will mitigate the loss of the France lot.  Germany becomes the second preferred lot.

I'm going to assume that's all backstage areas for the park with an access road for trucks. BGW has a similar road all the way around it.

 

[GrandpaD]

I agree. In looking at their plan, it appears to be an inner service road almost entirely encircling the new park. I did notice (although it's somewhat blurred) that a second tram stop has been added adjacent to the existing stop that currently is used for across the street parking guests. Thus, the outer gray roadway is probably the tram roadway. It circles the new park and then probably connects to the overpass to the Germany, etc. lots. just past the curve at the bottom right of the drawing.