Rumor Project 2028: Shoreline Pier Phase III

[sfgatim06]

Yep this is it.

Mike and Ryan, I know you're watching. Get to it.

Agreed, Best option for sure if you want to keep in in the boardwalk/pier area. Recover what you can from the original but build a fresh ground up version at Gadv.

AND...plant LOTS of trees! (I'd seriously buy trees for the park myself if I was rich)

 

[northdetective]

Guys. I already demanded the train for next year. Amusement park leadership does the bidding of ParkFans users on a first-come first-serve basis. I think ur pushing it

 

[Clear]

I freehanded an approximate mirroring of the layout and a reconfiguration of the station area to have Wild One act as a backdrop for all of Shoreline Pier and then follow Bakunawa. Queue would enter from the right of BoF and exit to the left of it.

View attachment 44214

Included the original version in the parking lot for reference.

Obviously I'd need to measure this out precisely or work it up in NoLimits to get the dimensions exact, but it's totally doable as long as we're good with some additional Giant Coaster/Wild One reconfiguration (which, again, I am VERY onboard with—sorta a tradition with this coaster).

There's probably some world in which you could shift this mirrored layout down and to the right to snake the right half over/under Bakunawa and have it use more of the Ka plot and less of the parking lot too—may be worth playing with.

I think with relocations you’re already having to alter the ride so minor and or major modifications are hardly a problem at this point. It’s already disassembled and will probably need a lot of new structural pieces so why not fill send and adjust accordingly

This makes the most obvious sense

It doesn’t occupy any of the current available land that could be used for future attractions. This is important as GK area is ripe for an amazing coaster in the future.

It doesn’t touch the go kart plot

This also leaves room for the drop tower.

I mean idk seems A+ to me.

Then they can throw a family Vekoma by Medusa and still have GK available

 

[Coasternerd]

Ideally they'd bring over salvageable parts of the existing coaster (even if that just boils down to some signage, trains, etc), but honestly they could go full Zippin Pippin on it and essentially rebuild it as a "new" old coaster for all I care. Every wooden coaster is a Ship of Theseus problem, and that is especially true for Giant Coaster/Wild One. Preserving the vibe and general ride experience of the coaster (height, speed, element sequence, retro woodie airtime, strong laterals through largely unbanked turns, simple hills and turns, etc) is all I care about. Wooden coasters simply aren't designed like that anymore—and something with that exact vibe is precisely what SFGAdv needs in my opinion.

Hell, let’s just call up PTC to see if they’d come back for a relocation project. They really only do coaster trains now, but it would be neat to see them build up a new woodie.

 

[sfgadvfan91]

Hell, let’s just call up PTC to see if they’d come back for a relocation project. They really only do coaster trains now, but it would be neat to see them build up a new woodie.

I would unironically love this.

I was talking to my partner the other night while watching something Coaster related, and I said "my single biggest wish for a park if I could have anything was seeing a ground up PTC in the modern day".

 

[Zachary]

I don't know if I'm just boxing with shadows, but I feel in my gut that there are probably people out there who are uncomfy with reconfiguring this much of Giant Coaster/Wild One and still considering it Giant Coaster/Wild One.

Just want to really highlight the history of the coaster to show that, compared to previous modifications, a mirroring and ending/station area redesign is honestly minor. Check out the following quote from this larger, excellent ParkVault article:

Starting from 1911 until 1920, John A. Miller was a consultant to the Philadelphia Toboggan Company (PTC), which had started building and operating roller coasters as concessions at amusement parks and boardwalks. The world’s tallest roller coaster in 1917 came from this collaboration, where John A. Miller designed the Giant Coaster at Paragon Park, and PTC built it. Located south of Boston, MA, near the Ocean, the ride stood 98 feet tall and was a side-friction design with a double out and back track layout. Paragon Park suffered some dramatic fires that lead to intensive modifications on the Giant Coaster. The first one happened in 1932 and lead to a dramatic redesign of the roller coaster.

Herbert P. Schmeck had helped construct the original coaster, and at that time, he was called on to rebuild the unfortunate ride on a sensible budget. The extensive initial double and back configuration and the massive side-friction configuration were too expensive to rebuild. He remade it as a simpler out and back with a dramatic double helix finale that used modern (for the time) PTC trains equipped with upstop wheels.

The ride suffered another fire in 1963 that destroyed the station, trains, double helix, and the bottom part of the lift hill. John C. Allen, a student of John A. Miller, was tasked with rebuilding the ride during his time as PTC president. The park asked him to restore it as an exact copy of Herbert P. Schmeck fantastic layout, but it was again too cost-prohibitive. The compromise was a new approach to the plan before the twin airtime hills that were destroyed. Brakes were mounted on that curve along with a new station. The last part of the puzzle was found at Forest Park Highlands Amusement Park in St. Louis, MO. The Comet roller coaster was also severely damaged by fire and would not return to service. The trains were spared, and Paragon Park purchased those trains, which dated back to 1941, for the Giant Coaster. As an interim measure, until the Comet trains were ready, National Amusement Devices trains from the Crescent Lake (Providence, RI) Zephyr, which closed in 1961, were purchased.

Paragon Park closed in 1984, and the roller coaster was purchased by Wild World, a zoo that was returning rides to its parks at that time. They hired the Dinn Corporation to take down the roller coaster and rebuild it at its new home in Upper Marlboro, MD. They were able to pay homage to the original finale with a new helix and airtime hills. A new transfer track outside of the station to store a train was also integrated, thanks to the extra land available at its new location. The ride was renamed the Wild One and opened to public acclaim in 1986. The ride still operates under the same name at Six Flags America, the current name for Wild World.

It started life as a DOUBLE-OUT-AND-BACK, SIDE-FRICTION COASTER and went through redesign after redesign after multiple brushes with death. This is tradition! And lets not forget that it's original home was at Paragon Park, an actual Roaring 20s-era, beachfront, North Eastern park. The history alone would add so much prestige to Shoreline Pier. And I know I have made this pitch before, but imagine the headlines! This story could be sold to major, national outlets. It's not everyday a business seeks to reconstruct an over 100 year-old piece of American history.

It gets you all the perks of a normal, family-accessible woodie (which I think everyone agrees is a hole in the park's lineup), while also providing a TON of extra noteriety, goodwill, and marketability essentially for free. Don't see how it isn't just a massive win all around.

 

[Nicole]

I'm glad you said this, because I was just in the middle of asking this exact philosophical question. ("Feeling in my gut" really just means, "Nicole said this to me yesterday.")

I love the idea of moving Wild One to Great Adventure and installing it in the Shoreline area. It feels thematically right to me. That said, as @Zachary has already pointed out, there is a Ship of Theseus problem with the concept.

Just like the ship in the original story, most (if not all) of the wood has been / will be replaced. So, what is this coaster, really? The control system, trains, and track plans? Parks upgrade and replace both the controls and the cars regularly. So, that really just leaves the coaster plans, themselves. How much can you modify the layout, before it ceases being the original ride?

I acknowledge that it has already been redesigned in the past, but that, itself could exacerbate the problem. If this were the first modification, it probably wouldn't feel as significant to me. In this case, however, the layout has been altered enough that it really starts to feel as if it has evolved into a completely different coaster.

Why do people think of Wild One as "oldest operating coaster in the US" to begin with? Why have we agreed to accept that the woodie that closed with SFA was the same coaster that opened at Paragon Park? It feels more like agreed upon vibes than any obvious conclusion. I guess as long as the park marketed Wild One: NJ Edition as the same attraction as Giant Coaster / Wild One people would just accept it? Perhaps at the end of the day, philosophical debates aside, it is the same coaster, if we all agree that it is?

But again, I do think it is fantastic idea, especially if the park leans into the history the way SFA did.

 

[northdetective]

My stance on this issue is that few people (among the "GP") will be aware Wild One ever existed and they'll be happy to accept that the white coaster that kinda looks like rolling thunder is old even tho it's new to them

 

[Zachary]

Why do people think of Wild One as "oldest operating coaster in the US" to begin with? Why have we agreed to accept that the woodie that closed with SFA was the same coaster that opened at Paragon Park? It feels more like agreed upon vibes than any obvious conclusion. I guess as long as the park marketed Wild One: NJ Edition as the same attraction as Giant Coaster / Wild One people would just accept it? Perhaps at the end of the day, philosophical debates aside, it is the same coaster, if we all agree that it is?

Yeah, I think with wooden coasters it really is sorta a vibes and provenance question. Even newer woodies have routinely changed and evolve recently—notable alterations have been made to even our most iconic wooden coasters in recent memory—rides like The Voyage, The Beast, GhostRider, etc. different versions of the same coaster is how I'd look at it.

I think it's sorta like when a restaurant or a historical inn was founded 200 years ago or whatever despite having gone through like 5 different buildings, multiple locations, multiple owners, multiple name changes, etc. We can trace the business' lineage through history and see how it changed and evolved with its surroundings even if the thing we're experiencing today really doesn't share much at all in common with what people experienced 200 years ago.

My stance on this issue is that few people (among the "GP") will be aware Wild One ever existed and they'll be happy to accept that the white coaster that kinda looks like rolling thunder is old even tho it's new to them

Yep, it can check so many nostalgia boxes simultaneously. The queue can reference its Paragon Park legacy, its SFA legacy, Rolling Thunder's legacy, the legacy of lost Jersey Shore wooden coasters broadly—so much to work with.

 

[Nicole]

I guess I just wonder if there is any reason to advocate for "moving Wild One" (whatever that actually means) to Great Adventure. Isn't the real concept here that an amusement pier needs a classic woodie? What is achieved by claiming that a new build is really somehow the classic coaster that was a murdered in the closure of SFA? Does it is give a few enthusiasts warm and fuzzies, because a piece of history has been "saved?" Is it a good marketing angle? Does is assuage the collective guilt over the loss of the only park in the National Capital Region?

I guess I am feeling simultaneously enthusiastic about the idea and very cynical about what we even mean. Maybe I just need some chocolate.

 

[KrillAtTheDriveThrough]

Why have we agreed to accept that the woodie that closed with SFA was the same coaster that opened at Paragon Park?

My first thought was "The same reason we accept someone whose 100 years old the same person as when they were in their 20s, after new experiences, reflection, moving around and the cell version of the ship of thesis" but that could just be me being super sentimental abt it lol.

 

[Zachary]

What is achieved by claiming that a new build is really somehow the classic coaster that was a murdered in the closure of SFA? Does it is give a few enthusiasts warm and fuzzies, because a piece of history has been "saved?" Is it a good marketing angle? Does is assuage the collective guilt over the loss of the only park in the National Capital Region?

All of the above. Nostalgia is big and Shoreline Pier as a whole is a nostalgia play to begin with I'd argue. A remixed Wild One would bring a lot of authenticity to the area in my opinion. Like I said previously, you get all the natural benefits of a classic, family accessible wooden coaster, but you also get to bring along a lot of legacy and nostalgia essentially at no cost (both cash-wise and opportunity-cost-wise).

I'll also say that a mirrored layout would still feel like Wild One too, for the record. The design and sequence of the turns and the hills with a lateral-filled helix finale matter significantly more than the direction of those turns in my assessment. Both sides of a classic racing wooden coaster "feel" the same despite being mirror images of one another, you know?

To really break it down, I guess I'd say that the core of what makes SFA's Wild One, SFA's Wild One is a height just barely shy of 100 feet, a top speed around 53mph, a first drop with a lateral-filled, turning kink in it, an airtime hill, a double-up into a slightly banked, descending turnaround, a double down, an airtime hill with a lateral-filled realignment to the outward course, an airtime hill, an airtime hill with a lateral-filled realignment to the lift hill under the first drop, an airtime hill, a rise up into a descending, minimally-banked helix, and then a rise up into the brakes.

All of that can be retained in that order with a rebuild at SFGAdv.

 

[Nicole]

So, maybe a coaster is really a set series of elements in a specific order. If you recreate that, you have captured the soul of the original ride?

My only counter (mostly because I feel as if I am already engaged in this debate anyway) is that certain coasters seem to have forces that can't be recreated. Nessie is a great example. Her first drop is unlike anything I experience anywhere else. If she were cloned, would Nessie II retain that secret sauce? Moreover, I would argue that when they reprofiled Racer 75, the forces on the first drop absolutely changed (for the worse).

So hypothetically, if you "move" Wild One and the ride loses important aspects of the experience AND you change the layout, what is left of the coaster that died with SFA?

Or, maybe it is really just vibes and a great marketing angle and none of this matters anyway.

 

[northdetective]

So, maybe a coaster is really a set series of elements in a specific order. If you recreate that, you have captured the soul of the original ride?

My only counter (mostly because I feel as if I am already engaged in this debate anyway) is that certain coasters seem to have forces that can't be recreated. Nessie is a great example. Her first drop is unlike anything I experience anywhere else. If she were cloned, would Nessie II retain that secret sauce? I would argue that when they reprofiled Racer 75, the forces on the first drop absolutely changed (for the worse).

So hypothetically, if you "move" Wild One and the ride loses important aspects of the experience AND you change the layout, what is left of the coaster that died with SFA?

Or, maybe it is really just vibes and a great marketing angle and none of this matters anyway.

I appreciate this sort of consideration for site-specificity and historical authenticity

I do think something like Loch Ness Monster is a singular experience, but it's also definitely a terrain coaster in that it interacts with the river valley. I don't think the experience of Wild One was defined by its surroundings nearly as much (maybe the weird abandoned facade was memorable). But I also think ur right, it's just a good marketing angle that I would support because all asks of a theme park are deemed unreasonable without justification of their financial viability

That is pretty much vibes but fascism has killed the humanities and few people understand or care so its basically down to do I get new (and old) coaster or no

 

[Zachary]

My only counter (mostly because I feel as if I am already engaged in this debate anyway) is that certain coasters seem to have forces that can't be recreated. Nessie is a great example. Her first drop is unlike anything I experience anywhere else. If she were cloned, would Nessie II retain that secret sauce? I would argue that when they reprofiled Racer 75, the forces on the first drop absolutely changed (for the worse).

So hypothetically, if you "move" Wild One and the ride loses important aspects of the experience AND you change the layout, what is left of the coaster that died with SFA?

I'm of the opinion that there is no real "irreplicable" coaster element. I think a lot of coaster elements that have a "peculiar" feel (say, to use your example, Nessie's drop) are the result of kinks and "imperfections" in a coaster's design. Whether or not those "imperfections" are preserved is a choice, not a given. Nessie is the perfect example of this. BGW made the active choice to preserve its imperfections while fabricating new track for the coaster.

We don't see layouts like Wild One's designed from scratch today because those short, high-G spikes (both vertical and lateral) are traditionally viewed as undesirable (from a comfort and maintenance viewpoint, in particular). The 90s and 2000s brought us precisely engineered, swoopy, smooth-as-glass machines. In the 2020s though, BGW actively elected to keep the character of Nessie intact with its entirety-from-scratch, newly-fabricated track—"spiky," uneven G-forces and all. SFGAdv could elect to do this for a theoretical Wild One rebuild as well—they'd just need to make the decision to do so.

In fact, today, I'd argue our technology is better suited for replicating these "imperfect" elements and the "spiky" forces they provide. We can swap in more durable track materials in sections of layouts where those force spikes occur, we have more comfortable trains to better navigate those "uneven" elements, and today we even see some manufacturers (example: RMC) very deliberately bringing back some of these previously-viewed-as-imperfections, coaster kinks. Some of the lateral shifts on something like Wildcat's Revenge would have looked downright deranged 15 years ago. I'd say the same about GhostRider. There are aspects of that layout post-reprofile that feel right out of the 1920s but still ride beautifully today thanks to better track and better trains.

So yeah, basically, it's all vibes and feel. For an industry that is all about inflicting forces on the human body though, I think that's pretty reasonable.

I'll also toss this out there: Currently, GhostRider is ranked as the 66th best coaster in the world on CaptainCoaster. As far as I can tell, literally everyone adores this modern renovation of a really lateral-and-airtime-spiky layout. There is real appetite for these "imperfect," classic-vibe-y wooden coasters with more modern comfort modifications in my assessment.

 

[Clear]

The lack of Larson loop talk in this thread is frankly alarming

 

[TT3D]

El Diablo 2 will be the next roller coaster after GVV

 

[warfelg]

RE: Is it still the OG version and that coaster of is it something new.

I go off the hardest part of defining and is it the spirit going on or is it the iconic parts?

What I mean is I don’t see TT2 the same as TTD. The iconic part of what made TTD what it was, is the launch. The insane launch and acceleration are what that coaster was, height second. TT2 the spirit of tall top hat and insane speed is there there but it’s not the same ride experience do to the swing launch.

Meanwhile Hades 360 is still the same coaster to me. Yea an element changed but it’s basically the same iconic parts with an extra one added in.

I know I may be splitting hairs here with how I see it but that’s my thoughts. I need to look more into Wild Ones history to feel comfortable with which one I would put it in.

Also, related but unrelated, it’s why I have my own internal issues with RMC. Like to me Twisted Timbers is cool because it’s the same layout with revamped elements that are new, and Iron Gwazi or Wildcat Revenge are basically all knew coasters with new layouts reusing footers to save costs. I have issues with people saying something was RMC’d when it’s basically a new ground up coaster reusing the name.

 

[Clear]

RE: Is it still the OG version and that coaster of is it something new.

I go off the hardest part of defining and is it the spirit going on or is it the iconic parts?

What I mean is I don’t see TT2 the same as TTD. The iconic part of what made TTD what it was, is the launch. The insane launch and acceleration are what that coaster was, height second. TT2 the spirit of tall top hat and insane speed is there there but it’s not the same ride experience do to the swing launch.

Meanwhile Hades 360 is still the same coaster to me. Yea an element changed but it’s basically the same iconic parts with an extra one added in.

I know I may be splitting hairs here with how I see it but that’s my thoughts. I need to look more into Wild Ones history to feel comfortable with which one I would put it in.

Also, related but unrelated, it’s why I have my own internal issues with RMC. Like to me Twisted Timbers is cool because it’s the same layout with revamped elements that are new, and Iron Gwazi or Wildcat Revenge are basically all knew coasters with new layouts reusing footers to save costs. I have issues with people saying something was RMC’d when it’s basically a new ground up coaster reusing the name.

I actually was watching something on iron gwazi the other day and was reminded just how much of that ride is new design vs refurbished. I knew at the time but I genuinely forgot so I was pretty taken back by this. (Call it my “get off my lawn” home owner stage of my life where things just feel wrong and rotten now)

So I agree that it’s tough when it comes to RMC that there’s 2 drastically different “RMC’d” meanings. Neither are bad. One isn’t better than the other. They are just different.
Iron gwazi and wildcat are two entirely different rides

 

[northdetective]

RE: Is it still the OG version and that coaster of is it something new.

I go off the hardest part of defining and is it the spirit going on or is it the iconic parts?

What I mean is I don’t see TT2 the same as TTD. The iconic part of what made TTD what it was, is the launch. The insane launch and acceleration are what that coaster was, height second. TT2 the spirit of tall top hat and insane speed is there there but it’s not the same ride experience do to the swing launch.

Meanwhile Hades 360 is still the same coaster to me. Yea an element changed but it’s basically the same iconic parts with an extra one added in.

I know I may be splitting hairs here with how I see it but that’s my thoughts. I need to look more into Wild Ones history to feel comfortable with which one I would put it in.

Also, related but unrelated, it’s why I have my own internal issues with RMC. Like to me Twisted Timbers is cool because it’s the same layout with revamped elements that are new, and Iron Gwazi or Wildcat Revenge are basically all knew coasters with new layouts reusing footers to save costs. I have issues with people saying something was RMC’d when it’s basically a new ground up coaster reusing the name.

What's ur take on steel phantom/phantom's revenge?