I think in terms of the overall park you’re right, but that’s moreso because the park has been so poorly managed over the last decade. I think if you look at the investment put into the park both last year and this year, along with obviously the new 2027 coaster, the investment is of a similar quality to what KD sees. My point is moreso that this investment is the tipping point where we go down one of two roads like Intimidator was in 2010 or Diamondback in 2009. One investment was successful and the park is now a regional destination, while the other didn’t do as expected and the park is still nice but is definitely the “little brother” to BGW.
News Project 2027/Purple: Delayed “World Record Breaking Coaster" (Phantom Spire?)
- Thread starter Zachary
- Start date
You can disagree, but it is not an "absurd" take to prefer KD. A lineup comprised of Dominator, Pantherian/305, Twisted Timbers, Grizzly, FoF, Racer, Rapterra, holds up extremely well in comparison to one comprised of Medusa, Nitro, El Toro, Jersey Devil Coaster, Superman, and Flash. Both have Freespins and wild mice, and I love Skull Mountain and Runaway Mine Train deeply, but Reptilian alone is one of my highest ranked family coasters, supported by the serviceable Backlot Stunt Coaster and Woodstock Express. I've said some things that can be construed as absurd but this really isn't one of them.As someone who visited KI, KD, and GAdv within the span of a week last year, this is quite possibly one of the most absurd takes I think I’ve ever heard. In fact, I’d go as far to say I enjoyed KD the LEAST, and the people that went with me agree with me on that sentiment. GAdv is most definitely a superior park to KD, and KI is better than both of them at the moment. Then again, you have brown grass, so I guess that kinda explains things
Can we get a tldr for this thread because I come back and I don't feel like reading a slab of text
Six Flags never had a plan to replace Kingda Ka with a new coaster. They were evaluating options between giving a full overhaul to the existing hydraulic system, replacing it with a new upgraded hydraulic system, or converting it to utilize a LSM launch, all of which would have been very expensive projects, but one of which needed to be done after the 2025 season for the ride to remain operational. Following the merger, new Six Flags decided that none of the options were something they were willing to fund, and with the coaster already having one of if not the highest maintenance budget across the entire chain, they decided not to spend any more money to give the ride one additional year and just retire it at the end of the season (rumor has it that had Six Flags signed off on the project prior to the merger, El Toro would have bit it instead as that coaster also has a very high maintenance budget).
SFGAdv was in the planning process for a different coaster project for their next major attraction that got shelved when the decision to take out Kingda Ka was made. Whether or not that will later be revived in some form remains to be seen.
They are building something that was designed as a concept that could be installed in a variety of locations and that has been specially modified for what is desired at SFGAdv. It is no different from most B&M coasters, which are made up from a collection of standard elements arranged in an order that makes sense for the footprint and is desired by the customer.
Definitely possible, but there could be a number of reasons for Tormenta's crane size unrelated to the coaster. We can reasonably establish a maximum size based on the crane in use, but there's no way to know anything further without additional information about the project.
Many coasters that became clones started out as an original concept designed for a particular location and were later copied because other parks wanted something similar and it was far cheaper to slightly tweak an existing design instead of going for a full custom layout. If you're working with a flat plot of land that lacks any notable physical features that might interact with the attraction, the difference in performance between a clone and an original layout is negligible.
If we're not getting a strata out of this project, I think you'll find many people (myself very much included) not at all happy with that outcome.
Right now the rumors and survey say strata so I'm very comfortable with discussing it as such—but should it not meet that bar, I'll be happy to open up a pitchfork stand next to @northdetective's torch booth to supply the hordes of dissatisfied thoosies that would result.
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Everyone but @northdetective is somewhere between cautiously optimistic to excited about a strata spinner shuttle for SFGAdv. Same as it has ever been. Expect the loop to continue until actual new info emerges.
Well I wasn't talking about "performance" there, it's a subjective matter of taste that I am disappointed in the lack of a full custom layout. I truly don't think a Balder clone would've offered the park-defining experience that El Toro does. The straight out and back portion of the layout parallels the water in a way that enhances the experience of the airtime hills and makes the whole structure a beautiful photo op. The twister portion wove between two other tracks in a way that took advantage of the narrow plot created by Rolling Thunder encircling and made for a disorienting mass of wooden supports that complemented the turns well. In my opinion, good design takes cues from, and further aids in defining, the environment.
edit: mixed up cue and queue. embarassing
edit: then I misspelled embarrassing.
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I mean to be fair what could they really do with the exact plot they are using for the KA replacement. It’s just a long rectangle (I mean in terms of what they could take advantage of - for example I think it’s horrendous decision that joker took a prime spot on the lake, when a much more aesthetically pleasing and interesting ride could’ve used that real estate). And a lot of Ka plot will be left over after this addition so maybe whatever comes next will interact both with this ride and Toro who knows
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There’s also a small (albeit highly unlikely) chance they’ll come in later with a taller height waiver for a taller crane once more details are revealed. Unlikely but not enough to the point where I think it should be ruled out.
The plot is a long rectangle carved out of the parking lot because the ride is a long rectangle/line. The entirety of the Kingda Ka/Zoom Queue/Rolling Thunder plots are now empty and to act like there's no history or features to draw inspiration from in order to produce something more engaging than a linear shuttle is to be intentionally ignorant of the park's storied past
I 1000% agree and, to be clear, if I thought a sophisticated, purpose-designed, full-circuit strata coaster was a possibly realistic replacement for Ka, we'd have a lot of agreement @northdetective. Just broadly, in a more traditional coaster project discussion, we'd agree on a ton I'm pretty sure. If you had been 'round these parts when Flash was afoot, we'd be locked arm and arm against the blatant, continued, in-your-face, enshittification of Great Adventure.
Let me try this. If you accept just two preconditions—two preconditions which I fundamentally believe to be true—on top of the standard realities of a SFGAdv project (primarily that it has to be financially viable) do we get to the same place?
- For marketability reasons, park reputation reasons, visual identity reasons, etc, a strata should only ever be replaced by a ride in its same height class or taller
- SFGAdv without Ka is far less impressive to general audiences and, hence, replacing Ka as quickly as possible is crucial to the general public's perception of the park
It's fine if you disagree about the validity of either or both of those preconditions. I believe them to be true, but reasonable people can certainly disagree and I can easily steelman counters for either. I suspect though that, if you put yourself in my shoes, you probably see where I'm coming from, yeah?
Oh, and another bridge I can build here to complete the sandwich. If you had been around pre-Ka-closure, we would have agreed 1000% there too. SFGAdv's handling of the closure was obviously unconscionable, but the coaster just also shouldn't have been closed at all prior to finalizing all of the plans surrounding its replacement. Furthermore, I believe I'm on record from back then talking about how incredibly foolish, wasteful, irresponsible, stupid, close-minded, etc the demolition of Ka was.
It was abundantly obvious to me at the time that retrofitting Ka—spesifically the rumored Intamin LSM + layout extension that was briefly rumored at the time—was just the correct path. I still believe that to this day. We agree that the path the park took to get to this point sucks. We agree that the origins of this project suck. I'd even agree that, in some ways, the roots of the project are already rotten and that rot
All that being said, Ka did close. The park did hide it. The park didn't finalize their replacement plans prior to its closure. The park did blow up the original coaster. Add those realities to "it needs to be financially viable," "it needs to be a strata," and "it needs to be built literally yesterday" and that's where my head is.
I have a myriad of criticisms for SFGAdv and Six Flags. I low-key hate these corporations. That being said, given the hand this coaster was dealt, it's hard for me to imagine a better coaster resulting than what we're currently expecting. I'm not shy about my distain for what came before, but if I had walked into a new job at Six Flags the day after Ka had been blown up and tasked with taking over the reigns, everything that has happened since is pretty much exactly what I imagine I'd be doing. That may sound like a silly scenario, but SFGAdv's new marketing chief is in that exact position basically—and given the recent and continued upheaval within Six Flags, he's almost certainly far from alone.
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What features are there, it’s just flat ground, trees, some marsh/forest where rolling thunder used to be, and what I’m pretty sure is an employee parking lot. for what type of replacement we are looking at here not sure what they could’ve really done.
The only thing they should definitely focus on in that area (and I really can’t believe this still hasn’t been done in the last decade+) is adding a new rollercoaster along the path to el toro where the start of rolling thunder used to be, so they can get rid of that ugly brown fence. But that plot isn’t a replacement for Ka, it’s a plot that would finally replace rolling thunder (+ the super loop - what a garbage addition that was)
Also quick edit - this honestly does honor Ka, as both are parking lot coasters lol
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GAdv isn't exactly known for its landscaping or being a pretty park by any means.
It would be really nice if they could add more theme elements back to the park like the giant wagon/teepee in the Western area and add more cohesive theming across the board. Current SF seems to be gravitating more toward the themed experiences CF was trying to push for before the merger.
I would love to see a new coaster in the Rolling Thunder plot too. Its kinda crazy that they never replaced that right after it was torn down. Then again, they just built their Chiller replacement last year, so I probably shouldn't put it past them.
It would be really nice if they could add more theme elements back to the park like the giant wagon/teepee in the Western area and add more cohesive theming across the board. Current SF seems to be gravitating more toward the themed experiences CF was trying to push for before the merger.
I would love to see a new coaster in the Rolling Thunder plot too. Its kinda crazy that they never replaced that right after it was torn down. Then again, they just built their Chiller replacement last year, so I probably shouldn't put it past them.
Ever-thoughtful and deeply considerate community leader Zachary,
I am completely open to the criticism that this is perhaps an overly cerebral take that ignores the sheer size of a strata coaster and the impression that makes, but I find there to be something deeply unsatisfying about watching footage of Superman: Escape from Krypton for example, the dullness of its flaccid rollback accompanied by the nihilism of knowing your car is getting launched however many miles per hour toward nothing but a Superman statue, only to return the same way, having experienced so little. Sure, the inverted launch will be something to experience, but Phantom Spire can really only even slightly begin to justify its parasitical existence to me by ensuring that every rider experiences the outwardly banked turn, preferably with a holding brake and a spin. I would not be able to describe the rage of watching this thing roll back 70% of the way up the tower as uselessly as S:EK. The shuttle aspect is something that is routinely dismissed as a thoosie-only concern, but the fact is that regardless of capacity, a coaster that launches so fast to do so little with the speed just isn't as intriguing to watch. There's no will-they-won't-they-make-it-over-the-huge-top-hat, so the precarity of being close to the end of the track is essential to this being not only rideworthy but eye-catching as well.
I will always be in two minds regarding what I want to see and what I believe would be commercially successful. It will always be more appealing to me personally to see a complete circuit coaster rather than a 400 foot one, but those are my personal values. I do think the shuttle aspect, *if* it doesn't dwell in close proximity to the end of the track, will harm the marketability of the concept and make for a disappointing riding and viewing experience.
So I agree with your second precondition, but I do believe that being a shuttle is more egregious to me than a non-strata would be. I can definitely see why many people aren't mad about a strata spinner, and I wish I could be one of them, and I would be one of them if it weren't a shuttle and/or had a more complete layout, but this is an impossibility.
Thank you again for your efforts at building bridges. You are very prolific olive tree with many branches. I wish I had been around when my hating was perhaps more justified or could've gone to better use.
Since the new coaster and old unused plots are coming up, here's the map I put together in the other thread showing how much land is available for redevelopment, and how little of it the new coaster is using.
You cannot convince me that any land is too flat or too boring or too placeless or too uninteresting to take inspiration from the either the land itself or whatever may have previously occupied it or the locale more broadly or literally anything about it.
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Someone said this
Someone said that
I said Giant Larson Loop
Only one can be correct (it’s probably me)
Fun fact: Not a single footer has been poured* (yet) for this ride in Kingda Ka's footprint. I'm half convinced that the park intended the two rides to co-exist, if only for a short period of time.
*I may be wrong, and if so, it's like...two footers.
Not any more. One time, a long time ago, pre-Premier Parks days, it was.
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The "Garden State" moniker could definitely be leveraged more, especially in such an agricultural area. Hell I don't see why there are aren't Duke Farms, Bell Labs, and/or Fort Dix sections of the park to accompany the boardwalk. If you can't tell, my dream park is the original concept of Disney's California Adventure But It's In New Jersey And New Jersey Themed And I Build It. The 2037 addition could be a celebration of the Hindenburg centennial
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