Project 2025/Holzfäller: Big Bad Wolf 2 (B&M Family Invert)

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Dave / Pink said:
It's nteresting, the idea of theming a children's coaster around nostalgia to ride that was defunct before it's target audience was born.
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I totally agree that it’s a funny dynamic, but on the other hand, it makes a whole lot of sense. Adults are the ones buying the tickets for themselves and their kids. I’d wager that for a lot of adults in and around Virginia, Big Bad Wolf was their first “big” coaster. BBW probably has a special place in the hearts of a lot of adults who are now parents. I bet a lot of parents would find it really special for their child’s first “big” coaster to be the Big Bad Wolf too, even if it’s not actually the same coaster.

Thinking about that now for the first time, I think there’s something magical about the generational dynamic that this coaster could create for BBW. As long as they don’t fumble the execution.
 
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Does the dual support system point only to an inverted B&M?

My initial thought was how Cedar Point’s Gatekeeper has that dual support system. I thought about the world’s first family wing coaster myself.
 
nick said:
Does the dual support system point only to an inverted B&M?

My initial thought was how Cedar Point’s Gatekeeper has that dual support system. I thought about the world’s first family wing coaster myself.
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Rhine river would be awesome (if only)

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Cedar Point is 52” though. How tall is this child model? Lol.
 
B&M has a couple family wing coasters under its belt so far, but I'm pretty certain this wont be one of them. Wings require very large turns due to the "scrunching" effect of the wing seats on the inside of said turn. Pretty sure even just the turn out of the station rules a wing out right off the bat.
 
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nick said:
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Rhine river would be awesome (if only)

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Cedar Point is 52” though. How tall is this child model? Lol.
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Ignoring the double post for a moment:

Though it's unknown how much SEAS cares what CF is building up the road, if they were to build a less-intense wing coaster here, there's no larger version coaster at BGW for younger/smaller guests to eventually 'graduate' to. With a family invert, there's Alpie to fill that role.
 
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Time will tell with all things, but I guess my other first impression on the article was that BGW really, really focused on Big Bad Wolf nostalgia with Verbolten. I’d be surprised to see them try to bring attention to the removal of the fan favorite again. Seems like rewinding and opening a can of worms all over again. But perhaps the general public gives them grief every time they visit still and management is sick and tired of hearing about it.

If it’s going to revive the Wolf, it must represent the qualities of the wolf. Who knows what B&M is not showing us right now! That 2-D panel could be the village after all. The pairs of seats could be joint to swing around corners for all we know.

If it’s not the Wolf and not Drachen, I’ll be interested to see what they create or renew. Witch of the Woods is always back there. Lol
 
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^ looks good! Curious, but was there something in the plans that rules out Vekoma 100% other than recent work history with B&M?

This doesn’t look too different from what Vekoma would put together IMO - Plus they already have suspended trains in the catalog.
 
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Zachary said:
B&M has a couple family wing coasters under its belt so far, but I'm pretty certain this wont be one of them. Wings require very large turns due to the "scrunching" effect of the wing seats on the inside of said turn. Even just the turn out of the station rules a wing out right off the bat.
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I'll also add - if BGW were to build any sort of wing coaster, I don't know if Drachen Fire could be repurposed into a wing coaster station. At that point, they are better off just building a new station.
 
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Anyone else think it seems weird for this to have two lifts? It seems to be taken for granted, but the section after the second lift is so darn short, I just find it really surprising that there is such concensus.
 
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Chungulatron said:
Anyone else think it seems weird for this to have two lifts? It seems to be taken for granted, but the section after the second lift is so darn short, I just find it really surprising that there is such concensus.
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I think a big part of the problem is that the coaster has to cross both the railroad and a service road before returning to the station from the back of the layout. Especially for an invert where a lot of clearance below the track is required, a much, much taller first lift would have likely been required to manage that return trip.
 
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Great video @CoasterMac and thank you.

Even if this coaster has the absolute best theming, if this doesn’t have swinging trains I see this being an extreme letdown. Part of the appeal of BBW was how much it was loved by adults and kids alike. From the villages to the iconic drop by the Rhine and of course the uniqueness of the swinging trains. I grew up riding it with my mom as it was her favorite coaster, and almost any fan of theme parks always appreciated a ride on it. But if this doesn’t move the needle on ride experience and is just another kid coaster hoping to drive attraction by nostalgia, I think it will be a failure. I realize I may be in the minority as my kids are 7 and 9 (and 1, but she’s got some time) and are already future thoosies. They don’t have any interest in Grover anymore and if this coaster is similar, it’ll be a one and done for us.
 
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Assuming it is a traditional B&M family invert, I imagine this ends up slotting between InvadR and Verboten in the park's intensity curve.

My opinion regarding the decision to add this coaster where it is currently planned is rock solid. I think it's a horrible, truly baffling choice.

That said, so much of my opinion of coaster itself, in a vacuum, is riding on whether or not the trains swing. I personally think it's pretty unlikely, but without that aspect, I do think it will be a tremendously lackluster, half-hearted attempt at resurrecting The Wolf and my interest level plummets to near zero. Maybe it's just cope, but the recent influx of prototypes paired with this quote from Sophie Bolliger is keeping my hopes alive:

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I guess I was naive, but I didn't realize the bulk of the cost for a coaster was the station! Seriously though, that's what it looks like with how desperate they seem to shoehorn whatever was built on this plot to use that station. While I'm sure it saves money, the necessity to use a 30 year old station is perplexing in the grand scheme of things.
 
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@Zachary amazing work on the article @CoasterMac amazing work on the rendering. what’s your alls opinion with the information you have seen and the layout you all have worked up could it support a swing style train. Not that there is any evidence to support that it is do you all see anything that prevents it from being in the realm of possibilities ?
 
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Yeah BBW tremendously used the terrain, and had that second just amazing lifthill up out of the valley and out over that drop. This has two what looks like pointless lifts and zero elevation change. It all just looks out of place.

The swinging trains while nostalgic, was and would still be a maintenance nightmare (in my opinion), so I feel like a fixed but properly designed and curved track would mimic the out of control feeling for substantially less cost. Granted, the more twisting left to right up to vertical at each curve would push the limits of family friendly? I don't know...
 
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My thinking from all the documentation and historical data I have seen on bbw is that it was under designed, with many times the trains be stress past their design points, with a tamer ride, better designed transitions, and better tech, I can’t help but think that the swing car concept has a far better chance of survival now a days. Not to mention it checks a ton of boxes for the park. Nostalgia for your die hard/ long term fans, hits the mark for height/ family coaster, puts a tool in the tool box of b&m with no other current coaster manufacturer having their hands in the swing train cookie jar if you will, and would be able to elevate a “pretty good” track lay out in to a coaster worthy of a 50th Anniversary. plus the park would be able to keep that secret from us for an extremely long time in comparison to all other aspects of the ride.
 
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