Project 2022: Pantheon
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
I similarly don't see that happening. Not because I think the permits and JCC engineering and resource protection review would be insurmountable, but it would add complexity and additional impact to the waterway and buffer zone.
Big thing though--independent of all of that, it would also add significant cost to construct and maintain, and you'd lose some of the allure of dropping to the river if you can't actually see it.
So it just doesn't have a strong enough business case.
I similarly don't see that happening. Not because I think the permits and JCC engineering and resource protection review would be insurmountable, but it would add complexity and additional impact to the waterway and buffer zone.
Big thing though--independent of all of that, it would also add significant cost to construct and maintain, and you'd lose some of the allure of dropping to the river if you can't actually see it.
So it just doesn't have a strong enough business case.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Also, for additional context: we're focused on the Rhine/reservoir/Grove Creek, but note that the whole park is in a James River watershed. So a lot the scrutiny will come from the size of the project's overall disturbance. Even InvadR had to go through a bit of resource protection scrutiny despite it being no where near the water.
Also, for additional context: we're focused on the Rhine/reservoir/Grove Creek, but note that the whole park is in a James River watershed. So a lot the scrutiny will come from the size of the project's overall disturbance. Even InvadR had to go through a bit of resource protection scrutiny despite it being no where near the water.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Thopping you seem to be taking quite a few "jokes" a little too serious as rumor or consideration. At this point most people are just joking around.
FWIW I wouldn't be shocked if some impact studies start, conclude, or are filed in the next 2/3 weeks here if this indeed "fast tracked" to get started soon.
Thopping you seem to be taking quite a few "jokes" a little too serious as rumor or consideration. At this point most people are just joking around.
FWIW I wouldn't be shocked if some impact studies start, conclude, or are filed in the next 2/3 weeks here if this indeed "fast tracked" to get started soon.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Nah, I didn't respond to your comment about fracking as that's obviously a joke...
I took metalman's post as a completely legitimate suggestion on a possible option appropriate for a speculative/rumors discussion. Looking at the other comments, fracking excepted, it appears Pretzel & MadridBot did too. I didn't view metalman's as a joke or sarcasm, and believe it was well-intended and his suggestion completely feasible, even with this being in a watershed. I just don't think the park would have a strong business case, so mine is more of a nuanced version of Pretzel's / MadridBot's similar views.
And the separate contextual comment--jokes or not about the river, really what I "think" they're most concerned with is whether they exceed 2500 sq ft in disturbance, so keep in mind the big picture of this attraction beyond the Rhine.
Nah, I didn't respond to your comment about fracking as that's obviously a joke...
I took metalman's post as a completely legitimate suggestion on a possible option appropriate for a speculative/rumors discussion. Looking at the other comments, fracking excepted, it appears Pretzel & MadridBot did too. I didn't view metalman's as a joke or sarcasm, and believe it was well-intended and his suggestion completely feasible, even with this being in a watershed. I just don't think the park would have a strong business case, so mine is more of a nuanced version of Pretzel's / MadridBot's similar views.
And the separate contextual comment--jokes or not about the river, really what I "think" they're most concerned with is whether they exceed 2500 sq ft in disturbance, so keep in mind the big picture of this attraction beyond the Rhine.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
...and I completely agree with you on that point, fast tracked or not, they'll need to get the environmental stuff going soon. That's a bigger effort than the height or FAA stuff. My guess is they've already started, once they got the approval from the county and believed no one was going to pitch a fit about the size of this thing. I don't see the FAA as an issue or dependency. If I recall, InvadR had the JCC resource protection stuff (i.e. due to the local ordinance supporting the Chesapeake Bay watershed/Bay act legislation) done in very early 2016. That's before all of the wetlands, soil, etc. state and federal permits were filed. So if this is a 2019 attraction, that stuff needs to be underway now, especially given that it's going to be bigger than InvadR and have more resource protection area implications.
warfelg said:
...and I completely agree with you on that point, fast tracked or not, they'll need to get the environmental stuff going soon. That's a bigger effort than the height or FAA stuff. My guess is they've already started, once they got the approval from the county and believed no one was going to pitch a fit about the size of this thing. I don't see the FAA as an issue or dependency. If I recall, InvadR had the JCC resource protection stuff (i.e. due to the local ordinance supporting the Chesapeake Bay watershed/Bay act legislation) done in very early 2016. That's before all of the wetlands, soil, etc. state and federal permits were filed. So if this is a 2019 attraction, that stuff needs to be underway now, especially given that it's going to be bigger than InvadR and have more resource protection area implications.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Invadr was kinda unique because the park never had a woodie and it needed a ton of footers, a large amount of trees taken out, the moving of a road, etc.
Not saying that this won't have it's own troubles, but going back and looking at the process of Apollo, Alpie, Griff might be a better judge of the timelines (especially Apollo) for what to expect here.
Invadr was kinda unique because the park never had a woodie and it needed a ton of footers, a large amount of trees taken out, the moving of a road, etc.
Not saying that this won't have it's own troubles, but going back and looking at the process of Apollo, Alpie, Griff might be a better judge of the timelines (especially Apollo) for what to expect here.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Yes, good point on the footers. With strategically planning the work site around where the supports would go (again, assuming a steel coaster), they can limit what they disturb and have less concerns from a resource management perspective. I don't think they could get it below 2500 sq ft though, which I think is the threshold where they can streamline some things. My main thing with InvadR is that it is recent and I recall the process better, plus it's informative since it is subject to many of the same things despite not being on the water. Agree Griff is probably a better analog, if anyone has insight into how the resource protection went there... Griff was also built well after (almost 10 years) the Chesapeake Bay act, so while things change, it should be somewhat similar...
Yes, good point on the footers. With strategically planning the work site around where the supports would go (again, assuming a steel coaster), they can limit what they disturb and have less concerns from a resource management perspective. I don't think they could get it below 2500 sq ft though, which I think is the threshold where they can streamline some things. My main thing with InvadR is that it is recent and I recall the process better, plus it's informative since it is subject to many of the same things despite not being on the water. Agree Griff is probably a better analog, if anyone has insight into how the resource protection went there... Griff was also built well after (almost 10 years) the Chesapeake Bay act, so while things change, it should be somewhat similar...
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Ok so I've worked a bit today to come up with a possible concept if this is a whole new hamlet and I'm kinda proud of the work I've done here. It also doesn't cross the river, but does interact with the river, Roman Rapids, and Apollo.
So first here it is:
Ok, so the red star is where the approximate location of the peak height is supposed to be.
The teal color lines are the boundary of the hamlet. Something to consider here: The approximate area of Festia is about 101,000 sqft. That are is 112,000 sqft for where I have outlined. Gives you the idea of how big it is.
The bold blue is the paths. Connects to the bridge at San Marco so now there's a split there. Connects to the Roman Rapids area of Festa so that is no longer a dead end. Another path that connects to the train station so you don't have to loop all the way around to get there. This connects all of that area nicely.
Light blue box is the coasters station, purple being the track. So a lift to the red star, a drop with a slight left turn, to a high overbanked left turn 180. Leads into some speed hills, with a "wave turn" hill to the river in the middle. High speed overbank low turn at the 'fork' in the river. Big airtime hill, followed by a big turnaround a la Fury. Hill up into the block section. Hill into a low to high to low helix that goes over itself, under the first block high speed turn, then over the high speed bank turn, then under itself. One last bump of airtime, sudden drop like the end of Apollo, into the final brakes.
Bright yellow is a food court area. Traditional Spanish foods and drinks.
Dark green is shopping areas.
Dark purple for flats. I think starting with 4.
The dark orange is a future expansion space. I'm thinking a few years after this opens, you could use that space for a dark interactive ride. Something like MiB or Toy Story.
It's a concept that accomplishes a lot of things, without being too stressful on impact by interacting with the river (as in footers in it). Could stand as part of a 3 piece front gate "wow" factor. Includes a new land that's a good size, that's well connected to parts of the park that could use some extra connections. Gives space for 3-4 new flats, new food, new shops, and leaves space for extra additions.
The "biggest" future projects for the park would then be a rail station in Germany, and using Festhous Park if they wanted. I've mentally developed some project for there, but I'll save that for the concepts sub.
Ok so I've worked a bit today to come up with a possible concept if this is a whole new hamlet and I'm kinda proud of the work I've done here. It also doesn't cross the river, but does interact with the river, Roman Rapids, and Apollo.
So first here it is:
Ok, so the red star is where the approximate location of the peak height is supposed to be.
The teal color lines are the boundary of the hamlet. Something to consider here: The approximate area of Festia is about 101,000 sqft. That are is 112,000 sqft for where I have outlined. Gives you the idea of how big it is.
The bold blue is the paths. Connects to the bridge at San Marco so now there's a split there. Connects to the Roman Rapids area of Festa so that is no longer a dead end. Another path that connects to the train station so you don't have to loop all the way around to get there. This connects all of that area nicely.
Light blue box is the coasters station, purple being the track. So a lift to the red star, a drop with a slight left turn, to a high overbanked left turn 180. Leads into some speed hills, with a "wave turn" hill to the river in the middle. High speed overbank low turn at the 'fork' in the river. Big airtime hill, followed by a big turnaround a la Fury. Hill up into the block section. Hill into a low to high to low helix that goes over itself, under the first block high speed turn, then over the high speed bank turn, then under itself. One last bump of airtime, sudden drop like the end of Apollo, into the final brakes.
Bright yellow is a food court area. Traditional Spanish foods and drinks.
Dark green is shopping areas.
Dark purple for flats. I think starting with 4.
The dark orange is a future expansion space. I'm thinking a few years after this opens, you could use that space for a dark interactive ride. Something like MiB or Toy Story.
It's a concept that accomplishes a lot of things, without being too stressful on impact by interacting with the river (as in footers in it). Could stand as part of a 3 piece front gate "wow" factor. Includes a new land that's a good size, that's well connected to parts of the park that could use some extra connections. Gives space for 3-4 new flats, new food, new shops, and leaves space for extra additions.
The "biggest" future projects for the park would then be a rail station in Germany, and using Festhous Park if they wanted. I've mentally developed some project for there, but I'll save that for the concepts sub.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Love it! You should be proud. Thanks for sketching that out. Well though out, practical, and does accomplish a lot. Dark orange future expansion could also be a decent-sized building for a year-round dark ride.
This makes a lot of sense for a Festa Field hamlet and the new attraction. It also makes sense even if the attraction and hamlet are based in Festhaus Park--you could still ampersand or something up the bank and back, and use this whole concept for another hamlet expansion.
Love it! You should be proud. Thanks for sketching that out. Well though out, practical, and does accomplish a lot. Dark orange future expansion could also be a decent-sized building for a year-round dark ride.
This makes a lot of sense for a Festa Field hamlet and the new attraction. It also makes sense even if the attraction and hamlet are based in Festhaus Park--you could still ampersand or something up the bank and back, and use this whole concept for another hamlet expansion.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Maybe not as many as you think. Most of the hypothetical hamlet is built on Festa Field, which is mostly open space. The coaster would be mostly in the wooded area, but it could weave through the trees without requiring removal of that many. Apollo is similar in that respect.
Warfelg even accommodated the right of way for the Colonial Pipeline, which runs right through the area and they have to keep it clear of trees anyway.
Maybe not as many as you think. Most of the hypothetical hamlet is built on Festa Field, which is mostly open space. The coaster would be mostly in the wooded area, but it could weave through the trees without requiring removal of that many. Apollo is similar in that respect.
Warfelg even accommodated the right of way for the Colonial Pipeline, which runs right through the area and they have to keep it clear of trees anyway.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
I'm familiar with the area... the coaster seems to wind along the hillside at river's edge and necessitate the removal of trees all along the water's edge. Certainly not all of them, but it would be a shame to lose so much of that long stand of trees given that such a large open area is immediately adjacent to it.
I do really like the depicted pathways and the opportunities to improve the train station. A restaurant, suitably placed, could share the current backstage area and service roadway that currently serve San Marco. (Though I'd rather see a large opaque attraction go there, and a respectable restaurant be placed far deeper in the hamlet to serve rumbling stomachs from both Madrid and Festa.) And a pedestrian tie back to San Marco seems like a must-have, so awesome choice there: a "choose your path" moment for visitors arriving from Oktoberfest, opening up that somewhat awkward end of the bridge. Eminently diggable.
While I'm still waiting for the reveal of BGW's motivation for marking utilities on both sides of the Rhine, and also noting some of the subtly chosen language in earlier posts regarding what the park is doing -- more than anything, I hope the long term plan for the park utilizes both the pastures and Festhaus Park for guest-accessible areas. Not just surface area to be sparsely populated by roller coaster footers, choking off future expansion possibilities.
I'm familiar with the area... the coaster seems to wind along the hillside at river's edge and necessitate the removal of trees all along the water's edge. Certainly not all of them, but it would be a shame to lose so much of that long stand of trees given that such a large open area is immediately adjacent to it.
I do really like the depicted pathways and the opportunities to improve the train station. A restaurant, suitably placed, could share the current backstage area and service roadway that currently serve San Marco. (Though I'd rather see a large opaque attraction go there, and a respectable restaurant be placed far deeper in the hamlet to serve rumbling stomachs from both Madrid and Festa.) And a pedestrian tie back to San Marco seems like a must-have, so awesome choice there: a "choose your path" moment for visitors arriving from Oktoberfest, opening up that somewhat awkward end of the bridge. Eminently diggable.
While I'm still waiting for the reveal of BGW's motivation for marking utilities on both sides of the Rhine, and also noting some of the subtly chosen language in earlier posts regarding what the park is doing -- more than anything, I hope the long term plan for the park utilizes both the pastures and Festhaus Park for guest-accessible areas. Not just surface area to be sparsely populated by roller coaster footers, choking off future expansion possibilities.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
I agree on guest accessibility. That, and the way warfelg worked the pathways, made the concept very practical.
Short of building another bridge back to the Festa Field area, which would be hard to justify without having a hamlet there, I struggle to see how you would turn the Festhaus Park area into a practical hamlet. IF the park does put the attraction over by Drachen, I really hope they add some flats/restaurants/etc. there to increase the draw, and plan to eventually link it to Festa Field, with another warfelg-like expansion. One thing I always hated about Drachen was that it was so off on it's own, and although they had more space back there, it was not used and was a dead end.
I agree on guest accessibility. That, and the way warfelg worked the pathways, made the concept very practical.
Short of building another bridge back to the Festa Field area, which would be hard to justify without having a hamlet there, I struggle to see how you would turn the Festhaus Park area into a practical hamlet. IF the park does put the attraction over by Drachen, I really hope they add some flats/restaurants/etc. there to increase the draw, and plan to eventually link it to Festa Field, with another warfelg-like expansion. One thing I always hated about Drachen was that it was so off on it's own, and although they had more space back there, it was not used and was a dead end.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Agreed... it seems like either another Rhine bridge, or a major risk in the form of a somewhat cut-off dead end area. Or it stays as is, I suppose.
The topology over there really does the park no favors in the guest flow department... though it did make the BBW possible, so there's that.
When BBW was removed but Verbolten was not yet a publicly known thing, I imagined the ravine containing a mega-mouse style collection of about 4 separate roller coasters of varying intensities, twisting and winding through each other -- one or two with highly visible Rhine drops, of course. Few switchbacks, but TONS of hopping airtime and close twisting passes with scenery and the other tracks. And at the center of it was a pedestrian bridge leading roughly from the current BBW/VB station house to the "middle" of Festhaus Park, affording great views of the mega-mouse tracks all around while also creating a viable second pathway into/out of the old Drachen Fire area.
I can only imagine the sort of themed multi-track runaway mine cart ride $50 million would have bought.
Agreed... it seems like either another Rhine bridge, or a major risk in the form of a somewhat cut-off dead end area. Or it stays as is, I suppose.
The topology over there really does the park no favors in the guest flow department... though it did make the BBW possible, so there's that.
When BBW was removed but Verbolten was not yet a publicly known thing, I imagined the ravine containing a mega-mouse style collection of about 4 separate roller coasters of varying intensities, twisting and winding through each other -- one or two with highly visible Rhine drops, of course. Few switchbacks, but TONS of hopping airtime and close twisting passes with scenery and the other tracks. And at the center of it was a pedestrian bridge leading roughly from the current BBW/VB station house to the "middle" of Festhaus Park, affording great views of the mega-mouse tracks all around while also creating a viable second pathway into/out of the old Drachen Fire area.
I can only imagine the sort of themed multi-track runaway mine cart ride $50 million would have bought.
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
310ft tall shuttle coaster that loads in drachen fires station and goes to festa, unloads, loads one and goes back. Lol
310ft tall shuttle coaster that loads in drachen fires station and goes to festa, unloads, loads one and goes back. Lol
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
"Bridges? Where we're going, we don't need... bridges."
[drops visor; Huey Lewis music fades in]
GONNA ATTACK THE RHINE
doodoo Doo-doo Doo-doo Doo-doo
GONNA ATTACK THE RHINE
"Bridges? Where we're going, we don't need... bridges."
[drops visor; Huey Lewis music fades in]
GONNA ATTACK THE RHINE
doodoo Doo-doo Doo-doo Doo-doo
GONNA ATTACK THE RHINE
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?
Sp here's where I feel like I was my smartest but I failed to talk about it: the space that I used for the ride, and tree removal is roughly the same area that they have marked off near the front of the park to compensate for the removal of trees. The reason I didn't use all the open space: for a Giga, there hasn't been a whole lot of 'twister' styles with most being an out and back. Even if you superimpose I-305, one the most compact Giga's won't fit in the field.
I also worked to keep 2 of the pens for the animals and create another one. If you wanted the coaster to be just in the field, you would have to do away with all the animal pens. Quite a bit to consider there.
The reason I put the restaurant there is the exact reason you said, can use the same backstage area. It would be great to put it deeper in, and I should have included a snack stand further in, but putting a restaurant further in would require more access roads, more backstage area, etc. So why not piggy back off another one and keep them close.
Well they are doing some work back in Festhaus Park now so it's possible that the work is just related to that.
If you want to see that area utilized, you should see the thread I made in the concepts sub on a 25 year plan. Utilized that area, tied it in nicely to it's not a dead end either. And FWIW, there's plenty of parks where you would thing a new coaster would mean choking off future expansion possibilities but they managed just fine to work around it.
halfabee said:
Sp here's where I feel like I was my smartest but I failed to talk about it: the space that I used for the ride, and tree removal is roughly the same area that they have marked off near the front of the park to compensate for the removal of trees. The reason I didn't use all the open space: for a Giga, there hasn't been a whole lot of 'twister' styles with most being an out and back. Even if you superimpose I-305, one the most compact Giga's won't fit in the field.
I also worked to keep 2 of the pens for the animals and create another one. If you wanted the coaster to be just in the field, you would have to do away with all the animal pens. Quite a bit to consider there.
halfabee said:
The reason I put the restaurant there is the exact reason you said, can use the same backstage area. It would be great to put it deeper in, and I should have included a snack stand further in, but putting a restaurant further in would require more access roads, more backstage area, etc. So why not piggy back off another one and keep them close.
halfabee said:
Well they are doing some work back in Festhaus Park now so it's possible that the work is just related to that.
If you want to see that area utilized, you should see the thread I made in the concepts sub on a 25 year plan. Utilized that area, tied it in nicely to it's not a dead end either. And FWIW, there's plenty of parks where you would thing a new coaster would mean choking off future expansion possibilities but they managed just fine to work around it.
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