What type of coaster do you want?

  • Flyer

    Votes: 33 54.1%
  • Wooden

    Votes: 8 13.1%
  • Something Else

    Votes: 20 32.8%

  • Total voters
    61
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RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Man I remember watching that all the time when I was a kid. And looking at that last drop again, it would be cool to see a B&M Flyer replicate that. I miss the Wolf. :(
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

I heard from Behind The Thrills that there was a survey team working on the Big Bad Wolf site. I went tonight while it was still light out and there were no markers or anything. I'll be going tomorrow morning, so I'll see if there is any more activity on site and if there is, you can count on some pictures.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

I wouldn't count on a new ride going in soon seeing as how they are just now planting grass. Just an observation.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

They planted some trees in the area the final brake section of BBW was, so I'm guessing that there are no plans for that area at this point, but the only thing I've noticed where the village was is a light pointed in the direction of the newly vacant land. I hadn't noticed the light prior to today, but it could have been that I just hadn't paid close enough attention.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

kcracken said:
Maybe the light is going to illuminate a sign saying what the area will become.

It was actually all the way at the back of where the village used to be. Again, with all the bare trees, it could have been something that's been there for a long time but I never noticed... it just looked relatively new.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

I've been watching I305 be built at KD and just visited BGW this past weekend. VERY sad to see BBW gone! I remember the pubicity back in '84 up the DC area.

Flyer, floorless hyper...whatever it is, it MUST be terrain-based. THAT'S what made BBW great! Does anyone know when the reports came out from the town/county about project approval for Griffon a few years back? That's what I'm waiting for...
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

trunkmonkey said:
Flyer, floorless hyper...whatever it is, it MUST be terrain-based. THAT'S what made BBW great! Does anyone know when the reports came out from the town/county about project approval for Griffon a few years back? That's what I'm waiting for...

The oldest documents available at the James City County Planning Department regarding Griffon are 1/23/06 (Griffon opened 5/18/07).
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Ahh... the whole plot of land just makes me sad no matter what surveying they do. :(

I have to venture something is amiss if you take a gander at the water where the big drop used to be. Why on earth would they keep the metal barrier for the boats if something wasn't happening... and why leave the concrete footings in the water and on the hills (visible to the public) if there were no future plans. Hmmmmm... Makes you wonder. :-/

I swear, if I were a bet'n woman, I would put my money on a coaster or ride of some sort that in some way replicated the feel of the BBW. If so, and they really did a nod and honored my favorite ride of all time, I would first cry... and then find every person who planned the construction, give them a hug, and be thankful that at least someone felt that the BBW needed to be remembered in some way.

The park could have easily removed all the visible concrete. I wonder....

Oh let it be true... please let it be true. :angel:

I will continue to wish for the "Bigger Badder Wolf" everyday. But I hardly ever get my wishes granted. :(
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Is it possible to re-use footers that are that old? I wouldn't think so...
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

There's no way they can reuse those things. In fact, I'll bet they're still there because of the complexity and labor to remove reinforced concrete. Nuts and bolts of a ride are probably relatively easy.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Well, let me say that I used to work for construction and if they can rip out a foundation for a 15 story hotel in a day, they could have removed the top half of the concrete that is sticking out of the ground with ease. I'm not saying to go dig 100 feet in the ground to remove it, but the parts sticking out that are visible?

I doubt they would reuse the concrete for support systems like they were used in the past; but BGW is known to reuse items when they can. In fact, the concrete platform for the Wildcat was used to to build the station house for the Wolf, and if you looked at the coaster coming into the station, the supports were drilled right into the old concrete.

Look at the picture.

Also, what about the metal barrier rails that was only constructed to make sure boats did not get to the ride? That would have been easy to cut down.
 

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RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Nora said:
Well, let me say that I used to work for construction and if they can rip out a foundation for a 15 story hotel in a day, they could have removed the top half of the concrete that is sticking out of the ground with ease. I'm not saying to go dig 100 feet in the ground to remove it, but the parts sticking out that are visible?

I doubt they would reuse the concrete for support systems like they were used in the past; but BGW is known to reuse items when they can. In fact, the concrete platform for the Wildcat was used to to build the station house for the Wolf, and if you looked at the coaster coming into the station, the supports were drilled right into the old concrete.

Look at the picture.

Also, what about the wooden barrier that was only constructed to make sure boats did not get to the ride? That would have been easy to cut down.

Your theory is a long shot but it is possible that the footer could be used again. However this would take a few things:
1. the coaster's design would need to be focused on getting to and staying near the footers. This wouldn't be that easy. BBW was an arrow coaster, that means the ride was carefully planned down to the last little detail, then those plans where tossed into the Rhine and they just winged it. If we get a new coaster it will most likely be a B&M. These are made by combining custom and stock prefab. sections that can only fit one way. Not necessarily impossible but definitely a challenge.
2. As quickly as they could have torn out the footers they may have just not had the resources to do so then and there. Removing a footer is much different from ripping down steel.
3. With the average coaster being much taller today than in '84 the ride would need to be down scaled to fit the drop and turn radius of the wolf. I will say however that if this part were at the end of the ride it would naturally be smaller.
4.The last thing that I want to say is that the old station will most likely not be used for a few reasons. First it is what is called a graded station. This means that the floor and track in the station area is tilted so that the back is a foot or two higher than the front. This was a common feature in earlier arrows and was used to eliminate the need for the lim systems that you see in rides like Apollo.This would mean that the whole floor would need to be taken out, the floor joists adjusted, and then a new floor would need to be laid. Also, the setup of the station linits the use of future rides so as that only inverted trains could be used. The only inverted trains that I see as an option are flying trains. These would create a need for a longer station and might even have a double station(like in Darkastle). By the time these ajustments are made, in my finite opinion, they might as well just make a whole new station.

btw, I305 is right up there with griffon. good concept but way too short. It's like going down apollo's first hill then skipping to the helix then skipping to the hill right after the brake run. It has some good things but it's lacking. It does get points for being the tallest coaster in the area tho.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Fur Dozy said:
1. the coaster's design would need to be focused on getting to and staying near the footers. This wouldn't be that easy. BBW was an arrow coaster, that means the ride was carefully planned down to the last little detail, then those plans where tossed into the Rhine and they just winged it. If we get a new coaster it will most likely be a B&M. These are made by combining custom and stock prefab. sections that can only fit one way. Not necessarily impossible but definitely a challenge.

You made me laugh. :D So true, especially since LNM is 6" off.

However, with everything digital now, including surveying equipment, it is infinitely easier to create a coaster that would have footings in the same place, or nearby.

But here is something I don't think even Nora has considered. What if they are rebuilding BBW? Perhaps B&M has agreed to restructure the ride to their specs. BGW knew of the "expiration date" of BBW. Considering how long a coaster takes from scanning a site location to actual building, BGW could have approached B&M (or any of the other companies... I just say B&M since the park has a good relationship with them already) to redo the coaster. They know how popular it is/was.

I know your next question: Then why did they remove the village? Perhaps there are a few different elements that will be added to the coaster that required that room. It could be anything.

And yes, I know this is all speculation, but that's what breeds great ideas. :)
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

I doubt that, however it is a good point. Also, to help your point a little, if this was the plan, the reason the village would be removed is because it was getting VERY old. If they are re-building The Wolf to current standards, you might as well bring the themeing up to date as well.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

I do love a good debate.. here is the method behind my reasoning; hopefully I may persuade someone to see what I see. :p

First thing and please understand that I am not saying they are going to reuse the concrete for Support Structures like the beams holding tracks, but there has to be a reason they are still there. And I swear to you, reinforced concrete can be removed easily. I've seen it done a hundred times at my old job as we often had to demo hotels and office buildings that were over 150ft tall. That is some serious reinforced concrete that was ripped up like paper.

I am not sure if you have seen equipment used to build (or remove) a structure like a coaster, but if they have pile drivers to put in underground supports that go 250 ft down under the Apollo's Chariot.. removing reinforced concrete (at least the part that sticks out of the ground no more than 2 feet) should be a snap in order to remove any traces of an old ride. I doubt Busch Gardens wants to keep random concrete footings just sitting around in the public view just because they did not feel like paying for the top halves to be busted up. Not possible.

It is completely possible that for some reason, they may be using the old concrete as a guide (for surveying perhaps) and plan to demo them later. Sounds reasonable.

Still, let me show you what I am talking about here... Check the metal barrier down by the water... (see pics) and the concrete near the station house. Like I said before.. they could have just smashed the concrete down below ground level. The metal Barrier unless reused should have been removed. Why keep the barrier up? For what purpose? Makes no sense I tell ya.

Busch Gardens is all about Landscaping and planting grass and flowers. The new landscaping around the area could in fact be temporary. If they do plan on building a coaster in the same general path - it would take way over a year, and leaving a demolition zone right in a main viewing area is not what BGW is about... having pretty flowers and painting the concrete is a great way to cover it up until later. Again, must be a reason behind it - just like leaving the station standing.

You may also notice they left all the drainage and erosion control structures... why leave those if they do not plan on using it as a coaster layout in the future? Why would they be so careful as not to tear down the trees if not for another terrain coaster? I heard that only about a dozen trees were removed in the demo of the coaster and that was only to get the big cranes in. Hmmmm; why be so delicate just to demo a ride when it would have been easier and more cost efficient to do otherwise?

The town demo makes sense. The town was old and needed serious repainting and repair. In fact, before the Drachen Fire was built, the town was only fronts (like a movie set). After the park opened the area behind the wolf; BGW actually had to build false backs to the buildings. Also, I have always wished the Wolf had a larger path with more building to fly around.. if they do plan on recreating a similar feel to a new coaster - this is the area I would expand and make better.

Did you also know that buildings were planned to be built the entire way before the lift hill and that there were several more "through the building" structures in the original layout? I've seen it (the conceptual drawings) At least four more structures were planned to put in place for the Wolf to fly through. Of course, I have no idea why this concept was scrapped - probably money and time is my guess.

One more thing to think about. Most modern coasters no longer have that infamous Arrow second lift hill. Anyone ever think that the coaster could start out going the opposite direction and the first major hill would be to swoop over the river? THAT would be interesting twist to the original wouldn't it?

My gut really tells me all of these clues lead somewhere; hopefully we will find out soon. Kcracken ~ oh I HAVE thought they may rebuild the Wolf but with a longer and more intricate circuit course. I would seriously pee my pants if that were the case. (Ok maybe not, but still in the same vein of excitement for sure).
 

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RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Here are some pictures of the area I took today.

These are close-ups of all the footers that are visible near the river:
 

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RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Nora, you seem to be the one who knows about this stuff, so this question is for you:

What equipment does it take to remove footers like those and how hard would it be to get said equipment to the location (in the water) to remove the footers?
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Alright, I'm with you Nora. Most of the BBW structure was down in November so you would think they would have PLENTY of time to remove most of the concrete footers. I wonder if any was removed in the back after the first drop?

I gotta think we have another terrain coaster coming. Would be VERY cool if B&M worked a special project for this. VERY COOL.
 
RE: Replacement Project For Big Bad Wolf

Well there are several methods of removal most commonly weakening the concrete (Diamond Saw, hydro cutter, jackhammer, etc) and then using a large backhoe to lift up the blocks on roads and flat surfaces. In the Wolf's case I would say a Hydrolic Excavator would be the premier choice for that location. If a large crane to pull and haul the steel structure from the bottom of the river area; an excavator could easily manage getting close enough to the footers to do some damage.

FYI: The hydraulic excavator is most commonly used for digging rocks and soil, but with its many attachments it can also be used for cutting steel, breaking concrete, drilling holes in the earth, laying gravel onto the road prior to paving, crushing rocks, steel, and concrete, and even mowing landscapes.

Now you think the removal would be difficult due to the water and slope; However, bridges are removed all the time with footers WAY bigger and water much deeper than we have here.

First of all, I do not even believe they would even need to drain the water to remove just the tops. Still... let us say for the sake of argument, they had to drain the water in the area...

How to remove the water - simple.

The area of the Wolf (By the river) is very shallow water - perhaps four feet - if that. (FYI: The lake in the middle is only about 12ft in the channel and about 17ft at the deepest towards the back where the boats do not go. Right under the Wolf when it swung over the River was only 5ft. It is a man made lake after all.

Basically you build a temporary dam/ levy, sump pump most of the water out to allow more access to the concrete.

Most of the track was solid steel and would have been much harder to remove than concrete near the water due to the weight and having to cut through the steel - besides someone had to go out in the water to cut the columns at the base.. you can tell by the clean cuts of the bolts that remain. Obviously, going out in the water was not an issue.

Had the columns been ripped out or pushed over without someone cutting through the anchor bolts in the concrete.. the footers would have been cracked and crumbled... another reason I think BGW wanted these intact. Why bother with making a clean cut if you wanted it all gone? You can see on one of Chris's photos the remaining bolts and how they were just cut through, almost like cutting a tree down.

Lastly, once the concrete is cut back enough, you raise the level of the water back up to cover what is left.

The concrete removal would have been the easiest part of demolition folks. The cost of disposal of steel would shock everyone. No one thinks about how much money it takes for the actual hauling of debris.. and companies who remove demo material charge by the ton. Now if BGW was worried about cost.. and you are talking about a small amount of visible concrete vs an entire (mostly solid) steel coaster... seems a bit silly to me to shave cost by leaving a few concrete footings for the whole world to see if they were not to be left there on purpose.

I can see leaving concrete footers in an area no one sees, but for BGW to leave the ones that are out in the open.. really causes me to stop and think. Other parks besides BGW - I would agree and say they didn't care and the "just leave them" attitude would be acceptable. Not for Busch though - not The World's Most Beautiful Theme Park.

Well, I have really said all I can; if there is disagreement fine; no worries - just my observations and deductions of what makes sense looking at the evidence. :-/
 
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