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If the estimate for the Volcano replacement is $10m I feel like that rules out a Mack launcher since Copperhead was $54 million. Price tag isn’t necessarily something that identifies how good a ride is. Either way I’m very excited to see what KD looks like the next 5 years. I feel like our VA parks are making some nice improvements right now (well in terms of “rides” at BGW for sure not so much some other things).

Two things about the $10 million:
  1. It's an out of date number.
  2. You can't compare that $10 million to the publicly-stated attraction costs parks advertise. Those numbers typically include a ton of expenses that the Cap-Ex budget for the ride hardware would not.
 
If KD wants a huge jump in attendance, it’s going to need Haunt-like events, shows, and attractions such as food and beer/wine that draw out huge crowds. Coasters can make some increase, but there honestly isn’t a coaster model out there anymore that will move attendance numbers in a meaningful way unless they want to go the Universal route in terms of budget/theming. Coaster investments now are really for maintaining attendance they have and not losing baseline customers elsewhere.
I agree. If KD wants more people, they need to go after a new market. Paramount removed the train, skyway, monorail, Lost World rides, Livingston Theater, Crossroads of Country theater. All attractions and venues for non thrill seekers. Since then, the park has been coaster focused targeting the same younger thrill seeking market. A market with less disposable income.

There’s a reason Disney is so well attended. It’s because the majority of the attractions are for everybody. Not sure why the regional theme parks list their focus in the 90s and decided to just thrill seekers and little kids. There’s little growth left in those markets.
 
If KD wants a huge jump in attendance, it’s going to need Haunt-like events, shows, and attractions such as food and beer/wine that draw out huge crowds. Coasters can make some increase, but there honestly isn’t a coaster model out there anymore that will move attendance numbers in a meaningful way unless they want to go the Universal route in terms of budget/theming. Coaster investments now are really for maintaining attendance they have and not losing baseline customers elsewhere.

Totally agree. I think this is why we’ve seen huge investments into events like Carnivale and Winterfest. Speaking anecdotally, the park felt much more crowded on days that Carnivale ran compared to days it didn’t. I think CF is right to believe these events are a big park of the company’s future, especially for a park like KD where it seems like the “experience” is their main focus.

When the park eventually turns its attention to Old Virginia, I’d expect a similar strategy that Jungle X is getting (although I hope the transformation isn’t as dramatic since I think Old VA is the park’s most charming area). Lots of theming, entertainment, and improvements plus a more modest coaster in favor of a record-breaking behemoth.

Of course, based on @Zachary ’s assessment, it could be a long time before Old Virginia gets the spotlight while the park keeps focusing on Jungle X-Pedition.
 
I agree. If KD wants more people, they need to go after a new market. Paramount removed the train, skyway, monorail, Lost World rides, Livingston Theater, Crossroads of Country theater. All attractions and venues for non thrill seekers. Since then, the park has been coaster focused targeting the same younger thrill seeking market. A market with less disposable income.

There’s a reason Disney is so well attended. It’s because the majority of the attractions are for everybody. Not sure why the regional theme parks list their focus in the 90s and decided to just thrill seekers and little kids. There’s little growth left in those markets.
I am surprized that I'm not wearing a neck brace from all the whiplash I get when corporate leadership changes happen in regional theme park chains and the resulting operating philosophy changes that come with it.

In my opinion, KD was best when it operated with a variety rides, shows, and attractions for everyone during the Taft/KECO years 1975-1992. The park theming, while certainly not Disney level, did tie everything together in an overarching area theme. Rides, shops, restaurants, etc; all had attraction names and structural elements in ride stations, and in structures that housed those restaurants, shops, and games all pointing to the same general theme.

I think they need to up the anti on entertainment. Shows have improved over the last 6 or 7 years, no doubt. But, the park chain/KD seems to be stuck in a rut with the spring/summer offerings. For KD, there is the Contemporary music show on I-street. The country/bluegrass show in CAG, and the Cirque show in the KD theater. Year after year after year after year. You can't figure out show themes based on a musical era (50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's)? Maybe shows that focus a music genre like KI's "British Invasion" or Pop Rock of a said era/or a Music Top 40 list list from a particular decade?

I'd love to see a major Broadway style show come back to the KD theater. In the old days, you could only audition for that show if you were a multi-dicipline trained dancer. Course, your chances rose, if you were a double or triple threat (Singer/Dancer or Singer/Dancer/Actor). All other performers, like singers who moved well, could audition for any of the other open cast postions in any of the other shows for that year.

If Cedar Fair/KD is serious about investing in entertainment, they need to build dedicated show facilities where there is seating and shade if outdoors or climate controlled if an indoor theater. I don't see a need for another 1100-1200 seat capacity indoor venue like the KD theater. One is enough of that size. But, with the park's current operating season extending into the New Year and, at least for 2022, opening in mid-March, they need show facilities. That is nearly a 9 month operational season.

The park needs another indoor theater to get out of the elements (heat/humidity/rain-passing storm and the cold). I think it would be reasonable to build a 600-650 seat indoor theater. A small outdoor amphitheater that seats 100-150 folks for a more intimate venue.

The small amphitheater could replace the grove stage and it would be for specialty music genres like Country/Bluegrass. Maybe it can be used for specialty acts as well.

The new indoor theater could be for an ice skating show or move the Cirque show over to the theater. Put a Broadway style show in the KD theater, that building was designed/engineered for that exact purpose.

An outlier could be a combination show/dining venue. Sort of like what Carowinds has or KI.

Keep in mind that building just those 2 new show venues (small outdoor amphitheater and a medium sized indoor theater) would probably be spread out over a 4 to 6 year timeframe. Not sure if the new venues would be in addition to or maybe replace one of the existing venues.
 
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I am surprized that I'm not wearing a neck brace from all the whiplash I get when corporate leadership changes happen in regional theme park chains and the resulting operating philosophy changes that come with it.

In my opinion, KD was best when it operated with a variety rides, shows, and attractions for everyone during the Taft/KECO years 1975-1992. The park theming, while certainly not Disney level, did tie everything together in an overarching area theme. Rides, shops, restaurants, etc; all had attraction names and structural elements in ride stations, and in structures that housed those restaurants, shops, and games all pointing to the same general theme.

I think they need to up the anti on entertainment. Shows have improved over the last 6 or 7 years, no doubt. But, the park chain/KD seems to be stuck in a rut with the spring/summer offerings. For KD, there is the Contemporary music show on I-street. The country/bluegrass show in CAG, and the Cirque show in the KD theater. Year after year after year after year. You can't figure out show themes based on a musical era (50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's)? Maybe shows that focus a music genre like KI's "British Invasion" or Pop Rock of a said era/or a Music Top 40 list list from a particular decade?

I'd love to see a major Broadway style show come back to the KD theater. In the old days, you could only audition for that show if you were a multi-dicipline trained dancer. Course, your chances rose, if you were a double or triple threat (Singer/Dancer or Singer/Dancer/Actor). All other performers, like singers who moved well, could audition for any of the other open cast postions in any of the other shows for that year.

If Cedar Fair/KD is serious about investing in entertainment, they need to build dedicated show facilities where there is seating and shade if outdoors or climate controlled if an indoor theater. I don't see a need for another 1100-1200 seat capacity indoor venue like the KD theater. One is enough of that size. But, with the park's current operating season extending into the New Year and, at least for 2022, opening in mid-March, they need show facilities. That is nearly a 9 month operational season.

The park needs another indoor theater to get out of the elements (heat/humidity/rain-passing storm and the cold). I think it would be reasonable to build a 600-650 seat indoor theater. A small outdoor amphitheater that seats 100-150 folks for a more intimate venue.

The small amphitheater could replace the grove stage and it would be for specialty music genres like Country/Bluegrass. Maybe it can be used for specialty acts as well.

The new indoor theater could be for an ice skating show or move the Cirque show over to the theater. Put a Broadway style show in the KD theater, that building was designed/engineered for that exact purpose.

An outlier could be a combination show/dining venue. Sort of like what Carowinds has or KI.

Keep in mind that building just those 2 new show venues (small outdoor amphitheater and a medium sized indoor theater) would probably be spread out over a 4 to 6 year timeframe. Not sure if the new venues would be in addition to or maybe replace one of the existing venues.
IM surprised im not wearing a neck brace after riding grizzly. That thing needs TLC BAD
 
I’m late but it’s always B&M this B&M hyper that, BGW this AC that. If BGWs proximity is that serious why not bring up a different manufacturer… Mack? Vekoma? S&S? They’re all capable of making hypers right?🥴

Pretty much in terms of Hypers in the US market B&M is *the* company to go to. Mack makes launchers, Vekoma isn't sold in the US because S&S is here, and S&S made Steel Curtain which has the comparative uptime of the Pittsburgh Skybus.
 
Pretty much in terms of Hypers in the US market B&M is *the* company to go to. Mack makes launchers, Vekoma isn't sold in the US because S&S is here, and S&S made Steel Curtain which has the comparative uptime of the Pittsburgh Skybus.
True but if they really want it to be different and un comparable to AC then Mack would be the way to go
 
True but if they really want it to be different and un comparable to AC then Mack would be the way to go


I don't see KD getting a Mack hypercoaster as they are expensive and cost prohibitive since the park doesn't bring in enough attendance to justify an installation for one and most likely wouldn't see a return on investment. The DC Rivals hypercoaster in Australia cost around $20 million USD when it was built in 2017. The price of steel has gone up a lot since then and has been reaching all time high levels.
 
I don't see KD getting a Mack hypercoaster as they are expensive and cost prohibitive since the park doesn't bring in enough attendance to justify an installation for one and most likely wouldn't see a return on investment. The DC Rivals hypercoaster in Australia cost around $20 million USD when it was built in 2017. The price of steel has gone up a lot since then and has been reaching all time high levels.
The only reason Mack could be considered is 1) CF just worked with them to create Copperhead, and 2) KD already has a Mack bobsled.
 
If money is an issue a hyper or near hyper wood or hybrid coaster is a cheaper option. A wood structure would look better in that area as whatever gets put there will require clearing a decent amount of tree coverage.
 
True but if they really want it to be different and un comparable to AC then Mack would be the way to go
The main reason B&M is so focused on is due HEAVY precedent with Cedar Fair. It's not like were saying this exclusively because of an attachment to that particular model of roller coaster, personally I prefer several other makes to B&M but I still enjoy them. Cedar Fair has installed 1 Mack in Copperhead Strike that is our only precedent especially recently for them to add another Mack let alone a hyper coaster. Meanwhile they have installed since Behemoth, Diamondback, Intimidator, Leviathan, Fury 325, Valravn, Yukon Striker, Orion, Banshee, and Gatekeeper over the last 20 years. Hence why a lot of people consider it reasonably likely that IF KD were to build a hyper coaster it would be a B&M model. We have seen 0 hyper coasters from Cedar Fair NOT from B&M since Behemoth was built.

Yeah I'd strongly prefer a Mack or intamin to a B&M at KD for a hyper coaster but just based off of Cedar Fairs recent business practices if a hyper coaster was to be installed at KD in the next 10 years I feel reasonably confident it would be a B&M.
 
The only reason Mack could be considered is 1) CF just worked with them to create Copperhead

I'd take this out of the equation for KD though. The company is focused on making Carowinds a flagship park. They want it to be the Cedar Point of the southeast as they installed a $30 million Fury 325 in 2015 and a $26 million Copperhead Strike in 2019. If Cedar Fair purchases another Mack it's going to one of the big parks.
 
I am surprized that I'm not wearing a neck brace from all the whiplash I get when corporate leadership changes happen in regional theme park chains and the resulting operating philosophy changes that come with it.

In my opinion, KD was best when it operated with a variety rides, shows, and attractions for everyone during the Taft/KECO years 1975-1992. The park theming, while certainly not Disney level, did tie everything together in an overarching area theme. Rides, shops, restaurants, etc; all had attraction names and structural elements in ride stations, and in structures that housed those restaurants, shops, and games all pointing to the same general theme.

I think they need to up the anti on entertainment. Shows have improved over the last 6 or 7 years, no doubt. But, the park chain/KD seems to be stuck in a rut with the spring/summer offerings. For KD, there is the Contemporary music show on I-street. The country/bluegrass show in CAG, and the Cirque show in the KD theater. Year after year after year after year. You can't figure out show themes based on a musical era (50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's)? Maybe shows that focus a music genre like KI's "British Invasion" or Pop Rock of a said era/or a Music Top 40 list list from a particular decade?

I'd love to see a major Broadway style show come back to the KD theater. In the old days, you could only audition for that show if you were a multi-dicipline trained dancer. Course, your chances rose, if you were a double or triple threat (Singer/Dancer or Singer/Dancer/Actor). All other performers, like singers who moved well, could audition for any of the other open cast postions in any of the other shows for that year.

If Cedar Fair/KD is serious about investing in entertainment, they need to build dedicated show facilities where there is seating and shade if outdoors or climate controlled if an indoor theater. I don't see a need for another 1100-1200 seat capacity indoor venue like the KD theater. One is enough of that size. But, with the park's current operating season extending into the New Year and, at least for 2022, opening in mid-March, they need show facilities. That is nearly a 9 month operational season.

The park needs another indoor theater to get out of the elements (heat/humidity/rain-passing storm and the cold). I think it would be reasonable to build a 600-650 seat indoor theater. A small outdoor amphitheater that seats 100-150 folks for a more intimate venue.

The small amphitheater could replace the grove stage and it would be for specialty music genres like Country/Bluegrass. Maybe it can be used for specialty acts as well.

The new indoor theater could be for an ice skating show or move the Cirque show over to the theater. Put a Broadway style show in the KD theater, that building was designed/engineered for that exact purpose.

An outlier could be a combination show/dining venue. Sort of like what Carowinds has or KI.

Keep in mind that building just those 2 new show venues (small outdoor amphitheater and a medium sized indoor theater) would probably be spread out over a 4 to 6 year timeframe. Not sure if the new venues would be in addition to or maybe replace one of the existing venues.
They should convert the Action Theater into a live performance venue like Dollywood did. The way it is set up, it could be two smaller theaters if the sound didn’t carry over.
 
They should convert the Action Theater into a live performance venue like Dollywood did. The way it is set up, it could be two smaller theaters if the sound didn’t carry over.

Perhaps, but there's the Old Dominion theater (forgot it's official name) right down the path on one end and the bandstand under the Eiffel Tower on the other.

Not sure it makes a whole lot of sense to add more live theater shows of any sort so close together, though I think they only have one theater that's useful without clearing out the Haunt house in the other.
 
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Perhaps, but there's the Old Dominion theater (forgot it's official name) right down the path on one end and the bandstand under the Eiffel Tower on the other.

Not sure it makes a whole lot of sense to add more live theater shows of any sort so close together, though I think they only have one theater that's useful without clearing out the Haunt house in the other.
Dollywood has their most theaters near the entrance. Dollywood pulls an additional older demographic that Cedar Fair doesn’t. because of all the shows. It makes some sense to have entertainment where less walking is required.
 
Dollywood has their most theaters near the entrance. Dollywood pulls an additional older demographic that Cedar Fair doesn’t. because of all the shows. It makes some sense to have entertainment where less walking is required.

Well to be fair there's already 3 theaters near the entrance if you count the bandstand - also the theater in PS too. I dunno about Dollywood, but KD is mostly flat ground too so not hard to walk for most people.

Bigger question is if KD/CF is attempting to draw the same audience as Dollywood?
 
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