Miracles
- Thread starter Bryant
- Start date
The park has a large following just for shows, whether you wish to recognize it or not. Taking them away would not help the park's current situation. You're comments are becoming very tedious, I'm having trouble trying to remain respecting with them, even though I disagree.
My argument is not that they should stop all shows, that is not what I said, I believe that they need to reign in their shows, and spend less money on them.
Zimmy said:
There are valid arguments to be made about the investment in shows at the park, but the idea that closing the curtain on stable productions is a good course of action for the park strikes me as laughable. You clearly haven't seen the pass holder outcry when the park has attempted it in the past. What you think of the shows or really what any of us think of the shows doesn't really matter as long as they're showing returns. Until relatively recently (Illumi, Entwined, LR, etc), they always have. The problems come when the park makes unprecedented capital investments in a new show that they believe will perform as well as, say, a massive new first-of-its-kind drop tower (London Rocks vs Falcon's Fury).
That said, this has never happened with any of the park's HOS or CT shows. Additionally, I can tell you with 100% certainty that, aside from Fright Feast 2013 (and possibly 2014 as well), all of the park's recent HOS and CT shows have shown substantial and consistent returns. There's a valid debate to be had over how much is too much to invest in a show; however, suggesting that cutting a substantial amount of them out entirely is the right solution is, frankly, a joke.
Oh, and also, this debate happening over Miracles is all the more entertaining. Miracles was produced on a shoe string budget this year, is filling its theater constantly, and is single-handedly responsible for a truckload of food sales at the restaurant that likely has the highest percentage of profit-per-dollar-sold in the entire park. The shows that an overinvestment debate should be involving are Deck the Halls and Scrooge No More.
IMO, the park needs to fill show venues that are also dining venues more than anything else. I can guarantee you the park lost money this year compared to last year because they failed to fill Il Teatro Di San Marco for a large majority of the season, whilst going off and spending boatloads on un-successful shows like LR. If a shows not showing at Il Teatro, food sales go down substantially at the restaurant. Also, it should be known, until Entwined, almost all the shows in dining venues were very low budget, TIO, MIU, DIU, etc. They all probably make substantial profit returns. So yes, I agree too much money shouldn't be spent on any one show, but in Miracles' case, and all shows in dining venues, popularity does make it right, and makes the park money, a lot of money.
I really have no idea how representative I am, but for what it is worth, one of the reasons I like Trappers and Grogans is that there are no theaters or stages at those restaurants. The shows deter me and my friends from eating at any of those venues. To be fair, I probably wouldn't eat the Italian food anyway, but even if it weren't gross, I wouldn't sit in that amphitheater voluntarily during a performance.
Nicole, I would never say you are wrong to not voluntarily attend shows, but I do wonder if you are in the minority. What makes BGW unique among local parks is that the shows are a major draw and there is certainly a real market for them in some way or another. There's nothing wrong with the fact that you don't attend the shows but a lot of people do. The question is, and I won't pretend to know the answer, is whether more people prefer the shows than those who are turned off to them. It's possible that the show/dining combo is indeed more profitable. I don't really know.
I think it is well-established that the majority of active Forum members enjoy the shows and like eating at theatrical venues. I am not sure, however, how representative this site is of the general population of park-goers. There, in fact, seems to be an idea that Forum members are different in some way than the much-maligned "GP." If that is the case, perhaps there is a greater percentage of people like me at the park than any of you realize.
Mazakman: When I am eating, I am interested in talking to my friends. It isn't a choice between watching a bad performance and watching other guests for me. It is a choice between having an interesting conversation and watching an amateur show.
Mazakman: When I am eating, I am interested in talking to my friends. It isn't a choice between watching a bad performance and watching other guests for me. It is a choice between having an interesting conversation and watching an amateur show.
I definitely know there are people who don't want to see shows when at the park. But most of the time it is not for the same reason. Your's is because you think the shows are amateur because you used to be a theatrical dancer. However if the GP doesn't want to see shows it's usually a case of a temper-tantrum that has the mentality "It's going to interfere with my coaster riding!!!"
I also know a lot of the GP is not like you. Heck, I can even get my teenage friends to enjoy a show or two with me when I go to the park with them. And there are also people like you who still enjoy the shows, my Grandmother was a dancer for a very long time in her younger life, and my mother was a singer, both of them enjoy shows at the park.
None the less, shows are still popular. I'm oh so very confused by this conversation though, if you don't want the shows to be eliminated for the people who enjoy them why are you trying to gain support for the show-hater group?
I also know a lot of the GP is not like you. Heck, I can even get my teenage friends to enjoy a show or two with me when I go to the park with them. And there are also people like you who still enjoy the shows, my Grandmother was a dancer for a very long time in her younger life, and my mother was a singer, both of them enjoy shows at the park.
None the less, shows are still popular. I'm oh so very confused by this conversation though, if you don't want the shows to be eliminated for the people who enjoy them why are you trying to gain support for the show-hater group?
This conversation reminds me of a old, bad BASIC program:
10 PRINT "I hate theme park shows"
20 PRINT "I love theme park shows"
30 GOTO 10
RUN
10 PRINT "I hate theme park shows"
20 PRINT "I love theme park shows"
30 GOTO 10
RUN
That is a great reason for choosing 'the bench' Nicole. People watching just came to mind as one option. There are many other reasons to choose NOT to have amplified horns blowing in your ears or high A hitting dancers galloping about while stuffing the ol' pie hole. We do what it takes to enjoy ourselves in the park with regards to the company we take on. This sounds like a good topic for a poll Joe! To show or not to show while we eat 
Matthew said:
Um...I'm not trying to gain support for anything. I wanted to share my perspective, because I saw a lot of generalizations being made that may or may not be valid. I have advocated nothing. I have made no attempt to persuade. I am merely voicing a different viewpoint and pointing out logical inconsistencies.
I don't care if the park has two shows or 50. As long as I can find edible food in a venue that doesn't have a theater, I am happy. I just thought that someone had to point out that we don't actually know how much of a draw the shows actually are at the Festhaus and in San Marco.
Here is the rub. I find it highly unlikely that the park truly knows what draws and what does not. We do know from a 30,000 foot level that their marketing sucks. I have never seen any real evidence that they spend much time on data collection short of body counting. While it is a useful metric it is only one and does not take into account WHY a person comes to the park. I am certain they have internal number they bat around, but I doubt seriously that they are very solid, and frankly I trust their numbers about as far as I can throw Nessie.
Do I honestly think they should kill the shows, of course not. From a gut check perspective, (read, one that has no basis other than truthieness) I do not think most people come to the park for shows, or even a sizable percentage. Frankly I don't think the park has any idea any more what puts butts in the park other than cheap tickets.
I know this much, when I take people to the park for the first time, USUALLY they have no interest in anything but the rides. Only after they have worn out the novelty of the rides do they ask "what else is there"
Do I honestly think they should kill the shows, of course not. From a gut check perspective, (read, one that has no basis other than truthieness) I do not think most people come to the park for shows, or even a sizable percentage. Frankly I don't think the park has any idea any more what puts butts in the park other than cheap tickets.
I know this much, when I take people to the park for the first time, USUALLY they have no interest in anything but the rides. Only after they have worn out the novelty of the rides do they ask "what else is there"
This is why the park asks guests leaving the park to take a survey. I think they collect about 25 people per day or something like that. I've taken their surveys before, and if people respond to them appropriately they should have a pretty good idea. My guess is either they ignore the survey results or people don't spend the time needed to provide the most effective feedback.
I'm still confused. You point out some people don't go eat at those places because there's a show, and I get that. But Restaurante Della Piazza does have two dining decks outside the show venue, so that wouldn't be much of an excuse for people who want to eat there. Coming from a person who has watched shows at each venue countless times I'm 99% certain that shows do make a difference in attendance.
I get to most shows very early, and at both the Festhaus and Il Teatro, it's pretty quiet until slowly people start coming with their food from the lines and start eating until, eventually it is multiple times as crowded as it was before. Most of the time when I went by Il Teatro during HOS and the beginning of the season this year I could count the number of groups eating there on my two hands. Every show-time I'm very observant of attendance, and it is usually packed at both the Festhaus and Il Teatro, and once the show is over people filter out until the process repeats itself. This is from many observations and I think you'll find many other show-goers in here will agree they see the same scenario.
I get to most shows very early, and at both the Festhaus and Il Teatro, it's pretty quiet until slowly people start coming with their food from the lines and start eating until, eventually it is multiple times as crowded as it was before. Most of the time when I went by Il Teatro during HOS and the beginning of the season this year I could count the number of groups eating there on my two hands. Every show-time I'm very observant of attendance, and it is usually packed at both the Festhaus and Il Teatro, and once the show is over people filter out until the process repeats itself. This is from many observations and I think you'll find many other show-goers in here will agree they see the same scenario.
In the past I have avoided Miracles, because I don't care too much for contemporary dance, however tonight I decided to get out of the crowd and watch Miracles. I like this year's version much better than the past several years. The ballet was beautiful and very well done. The singing was excellent. The contemporary dance was not overly awkward or uncomfortable to watch. I enjoyed the show.
