Kings Dominion Kills WinterFest

[warfelg]

I have no problem with the fact that WinterFest was reigned in TBH. I think what kills these events more than anything is expanding it too quickly. In this case we don't even know what caused the shrink. Maybe it was as simple as staffing was tough so this lead to them making a tough decision. Possibly there was some non-working items that they decided to use what they had for the best possible event rather than have areas where things didn't work.

I think there's too much speculation of this stuff going on and there's little thought going into what's causing the problems. I have issues with CF and their management at times but I do try to give them the benefit of the doubt. In fact right now I can see CF and SF across the board reigning in events and costs just so they can figure out what the future looks like. And the really big issue that's going to pop up with that is the potential of government roadblocks to the merger.

All in all I wouldn't mind seeing all events for all parks really pulled back and become more focused. Parks are better off spending money in other areas than events at times. I know it's come up a lot but finishing the pavers in CAG would go a long way to making people happy.

 

[outhikn]

All in all I wouldn't mind seeing all events for all parks really pulled back and become more focused. Parks are better off spending money in other areas than events at times. I know it's come up a lot but finishing the pavers in CAG would go a long way to making people happy.

Great point regarding events vs parks spending.

(Where not to sidetrack the thread) But just to take a quick opportunity to voice a personal opinion regarding those CAG pavers mentioned... I for one enjoy the current asphalt simply for the 'photo opportunities' it provides on wet days; where for the sake of this WinterFest thread, a couple of CAG examples (from December):




And another random CAG example (from Haunt 2021):



So though I honestly hope I'm in the minority regarding the asphalt (as it really does not look good), always best to find the good in something, eh.

However, then again. Pavers certainly provide their own unique 'photo opportunities'

 

[Zachary]

We need to surface this thread again. Between the rumored mass full-time layoffs today and an increasing drumbeat of rumors that claim, at a minimum, that Winterfest at Kings Dominion is being reevaluated, I'm sorta a little concerned.

I have never heard any suggestion that Winterfest isn't successful at Kings Dominion so I do not know what the possible justification for removing it could actually be, but the rumors of an uncertain future for the event are persistent this off-season. I've seen no evidence in any direction and I don't have anyone with any sort of direct knowledge in my ear, but a handful of folks I've spoken to now have heard similar whispers. Hopefully it's all just circular reporting of unfounded rumors inside the park, but I wanted to surface the rumor regardless.

One potentially positive take here is that this is not the first year rumors like this have circulated (hence why this thread already exists) and, thankfully, similar "Winterfest is Doomed!" rumors have always proven false previously. I did want to highlight that the rumors are definitely back again in 2025 though. Hopefully they're just as baseless this year as previously...

 

[rollercoastercoaster]

Are the rumors suggesting 2025 could be the last year of it, or that it may even be cancelled this year?

 

[Zachary]

Most prominent version I've heard is that 2025's Winterfest is cancelled.

I am still taking it with a massive spoonful of salt (as should all of you in my opinion), but the rumors definitely exist.

 

[horsesboy]

Are the rumors suggesting 2025 could be the last year of it, or that it may even be cancelled this year?

Both rumors are currently in circulation. The already canceled one has grown in strength recently. I am highly concerned about it's future but I have sources that keep saying it's still on and will likely see an explanation this year. That said KD seems to have been increasingly caught off guard by corporate cost cutting decisions lately so the possibility that groups in the park expect a return an even a possible expansion doesn't completely rule out that corporate could possibly pull the rug outgrow under these plans. Multiple sources that I have spoken to sense the layoffs this morning are expressing uneasy an concern about the future situation and what the future holds for the park. I can't say if that is just the raw shock of today's events or something greater but the tone in everyone that I spoke with has dramatically changed from only a few weeks ago as Winterfest wrapped.

 

[RollyCoaster]

I really don’t think Winterfest is leaving this year.

We operated Winterfest with similar seasonal roles in 2018/2019 very successfully. In fact, with a lot of the weather issues, not having all these full time staff members may really benefit the event again.

Big 50th anniversary, large investments, and season pass advertising make me think it stays. If anything, If the start of the season takes off as expected, I’d be shocked to not see sizeable investment in Winterfest this year.

 

[Zachary]

The ongoing pass sales are certainly the best evidence against the death of Winterfest. If the event were killed, there would need to be some serious compensation.

To play devil's advocate though, it's not without precedent. California's Great America was advertising Tricks and Treats and WinterFest 2025 access on their 2025 passes until they suddenly announced the cancellation of all special events at the park, period. Obviously the CGA situation is unique given the park's future, but it does show that these decisions are being made with little regard for previous claims...

 

[horsesboy]

I really don’t think Winterfest is leaving this year.

We operated Winterfest with similar seasonal roles in 2018/2019 very successfully. In fact, with a lot of the weather issues, not having all these full time staff members may really benefit the event again.

Big 50th anniversary, large investments, and season pass advertising make me think it stays. If anything, If the start of the season takes off as expected, I’d be shocked to not see sizeable investment in Winterfest this year.

View attachment 35956

Counter to that one of the rumors currently be circulated including by several people not who usually report accurate KD news has it as a decision not limited to KD but involving multiple Cedar Fair legacy parks. If so the 50th might other even be taken in consideration.

 

[RollyCoaster]

Interested in what you have to say but am unsure of what ya meant to say here

If so the 50th might other even be taken in consideration.

Are you saying the 50th may not be taken into consideration?

If so, that’s super interesting. And certainly a bummer. Everything I know entails that Winterfest did fairly well this past season. Some bad days, but some really, really solid days. I know Bridgette has high regards for the event as well.

If they are worried about staffing again, hiring additional internationals during the summer to stretch the seasonal employees throughout the year may be the solution.

California's Great America was advertising Tricks and Treats and WinterFest 2025 access on their 2025 passes until they suddenly announced the cancellation of all special events at the park, period.

Forgot about this. Fair point for sure.

 

[horsesboy]

Interested in what you have to say but am unsure of what ya meant to say here


Are you saying the 50th may not be taken into consideration?

If so, that’s super interesting. And certainly a bummer. Everything I know entails that Winterfest did fairly well this past season. Some bad days, but some really, really solid days. I know Bridgette has high regards for the event as well.

If they are worried about staffing again, hiring additional internationals during the summer to stretch the seasonal employees throughout the year may be the solution.

I am saying IF corporate has decided to yank the event or down size and change it across all of the legacy CF parks it's unlikely that they would go oh KD's 50th is this year let's wait a year on them.

 

[Mushroom]

I’m not convinced that Winterfest isn’t a financial success for the park (have you seen the food lines? how packed the $20-per-session ice rink is?) but even if it’s financially shaky, I would really struggle to understand the logic of cutting the event entirely versus cutting it back.

There clearly exists some demand for the event, so if I were a SF executive tasked with deciding Winterfest’s future, I’d sooner take the event into profit maximization mode than axe it completely. Fewer rides, fewer shows, cut the merriment characters, cut a few decorations here and there, maybe shrink the footprint a bit. Reduce the operating costs of Winterfest as much as possible and see if people still buy tickets and hot chocolate.

Obviously, I’d prefer to see the opposite of that — more shows, bigger footprint, etc. But as stagnant as Winterfest feels, they haven’t really cut back on it much since the event began (minus a couple of shows coinciding with chain-wide live entertainment cuts), and to the contrary, they’ve added several new displays and opened up a few new small sections. So there’s plenty of meat on the bone. (In other words, a cut-back Winterfest is better than no Winterfest, from a guest perspective and presumably from a financial perspective too.)

Unless Winterfest is really running in the red (which I’d hope isn’t the case, but I guess it’s possible), you’d think the corporate bean counters wouldn’t want all the infrastructural investments into the event to go to waste — and for the park to sit dark, not making money for a third of the year again — when there’s still potential profit to be squeezed.

 

[GAcoaster]

The fact that Great Adventure announced Holiday in the Park returning for 2025 makes me think that Winter Fest at Kings Dominion will return as well. If GA's Christmas event was cancelled I'd think KD's would be as well, but if the one further north that was in jeopardy before the merger is still on, I'd think the one to the south would be as well.

 

[warfelg]

I put 0 trust in the new SF saying to buy a pass on something then keeping it.

 

[MusicEnlightens]

The fact that Great Adventure announced Holiday in the Park returning for 2025 makes me think that Winter Fest at Kings Dominion will return as well. If GA's Christmas event was cancelled I'd think KD's would be as well, but if the one further north that was in jeopardy before the merger is still on, I'd think the one to the south would be as well.

I agree! I think yesterday's announcement of Holiday in the Park returning strengthened (but not guaranteed) a KD Winterfest next year. Although a larger, higher tier park, pulling from New York City and Philly, Great Adventure's very quick fall from grace has been stunning, especially on its own 50th anniversary (although neglect started long before that). I think corporate is going to work hard to turn GAdv around, and invest heavily in it, starting with all of their ride removals, which will make it worse before it gets better. Great Adventure will have a huge upside in the future, but I think I could see a world where Six Flags could have pulled Holiday in the Park from them for a year or two until attendance turned the corner. Despite Flash opening next year, I think a lot of people will be turned off to visiting next year, and it'll take some time to them back.

Corporate has been very serious about the cost-cutting, but if they can find it to keep Holiday in the Park at Great Adventure, I think Kings Dominion is safe for at least another year. Unlike some parks, KD has the opportunity to, and does, close off a portion of the park (Jungle X) without making the park feel incomplete. Not saying I wouldn't love it open, but most parks don't have such an isolated area, that can easily get closed off, or opened but half heartedly decorated. That's why the area of the park that is open can have such strong immersive decorations, for the most part (looking at you Busch Gardens). One would think that for this reason alone Winterfest at KD is inherently slightly cheaper to operate and maintain than than other Winterfests.

 

[MrBradferd]

I’m not convinced that Winterfest isn’t a financial success for the park (have you seen the food lines? how packed the $20-per-session ice rink is?) but even if it’s financially shaky, I would really struggle to understand the logic of cutting the event entirely versus cutting it back.

There clearly exists some demand for the event, so if I were a SF executive tasked with deciding Winterfest’s future, I’d sooner take the event into profit maximization mode than axe it completely. Fewer rides, fewer shows, cut the merriment characters, cut a few decorations here and there, maybe shrink the footprint a bit. Reduce the operating costs of Winterfest as much as possible and see if people still buy tickets and hot chocolate.

Obviously, I’d prefer to see the opposite of that — more shows, bigger footprint, etc. But as stagnant as Winterfest feels, they haven’t really cut back on it much since the event began (minus a couple of shows coinciding with chain-wide live entertainment cuts), and to the contrary, they’ve added several new displays and opened up a few new small sections. So there’s plenty of meat on the bone. (In other words, a cut-back Winterfest is better than no Winterfest, from a guest perspective and presumably from a financial perspective too.)

Unless Winterfest is really running in the red (which I’d hope isn’t the case, but I guess it’s possible), you’d think the corporate bean counters wouldn’t want all the infrastructural investments into the event to go to waste — and for the park to sit dark, not making money for a third of the year again — when there’s still potential profit to be squeezed.

If they have to resort to cutting THAT much out then just close it. Im deffiently not going back if they get rid of all that and close the coasters and stuff. Maybe if it was free id go. But if they cut it that much then the GP who already drool over christmas town over winterfest but still go to both will deffiently not go to winterfest no more. It would just be a guarantee in the hole at that point.

 

[Mushroom]

If they have to resort to cutting THAT much out then just close it. Im deffiently not going back if they get rid of all that and close the coasters and stuff. Maybe if it was free id go. But if they cut it that much then the GP who already drool over christmas town over winterfest but still go to both will deffiently not go to winterfest no more. It would just be a guarantee in the hole at that point.

To be clear, that’s not what I suggested. My suggestion was not to “get rid of all that and close the coasters and stuff,” just to pick off some expenses with relatively minimal impact on the experience of the event. Close off Apple Zapple, Dodgem, and a handful of Planet Snoopy rides (and Berserker obviously); eliminate a few less significant shows like Jingle Jazz and The Humbugs; pull back on decorations in less-visited areas like the Dominator plaza; axe the walk around characters who are lovely but not necessary; and make a half dozen other small tweaks like that, and they could easily reduce Winterfest’s costs by a half million, million, two million, or even more.

Again, I am absolutely not suggesting that this is what I think they should do. If anyone from SF is reading this, I actually think they should do the opposite. Expanding the event and investing in more experiences is what will allow the event to flourish into a long-term, beloved, profitable venture. But, IF the event is really bleeding for cash, a scaled-back event could still deliver a solid guest experience while still pulling a profit. It’s not a sustainable long term play, but it makes way more sense than giving up and earning exactly $0 during the winter season.

tl;dr Expanded Winterfest trumps current Winterfest, and current Winterfest trumps scaled-back Winterfest. But scaled-back Winterfest trumps no Winterfest.

 

[Fenrihr]

IMO, if it goes away, it won't be this year. I think the reduction in full-time staff is actually part of the reason it's staying. Labor gets expensive, part timers are cheaper, and can be flexed.

If there's a major issue, it's going to be staffing. They are likely not going to be able to rely on international workers as much the next few years, and locals haven't been jumping at the part time job opportunity as much, from what I understand.

 

[MysticClay]

I think completely cancelled is unfounded but with this merger it’s really hard to say. From what I’ve heard both berserker and anaconda were very much planned to be opened next year with anaconda’s trains even getting ready for yearly maintenance after haunt. Ive even heard one of the classic kids rides may be on the chopping block but I don’t know which one. KD does have staffing issues during winterfest which is why some things just do not open but it was busy every time I went, the first day of winterfest had a line of cars so long it backed out to 95. I’d heard rumors earlier about possible Winterfest expansion like Kings Island or Carowinds where they had more coasters open, as well as the return of the Winterfest parade for 2025. This merger has definitely been beating the shit out of KD (excessively for some reason) but I feel like even if it’s not as profitable as they hoped, some profit is better than nothing at all. I just find it unlikely that it is losing money when the parking lot is as full as most summer weekdays at least.

 

[Thriller]

The profitability of Winterfest is highly questionable. It takes a LOT of labor to decorate the park for only appx 25 operating days.

The event also regurgitates a LOT of non spending season pass holders. Chowing down on even more season pass meals and drinks with no additional spending.

Cedar Fair was foolish when they included Winterfest with the basic season pass. It should have been an add on.