Howl-O-Scream 2013: Rumors Have a Way of Spreading
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RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
I think there is a difference between "scare" and "horror." Obviously some people don't want to be scared, regardless of their age. I think, however, that for a lot of people horror is significantly less palatable. You can be scared for a few seconds and then laugh about it almost immediately. Horror can give you nightmares. My impression -- and I could be totally off-base -- is that the Pumpkins differentiated between the two.
I think there is a difference between "scare" and "horror." Obviously some people don't want to be scared, regardless of their age. I think, however, that for a lot of people horror is significantly less palatable. You can be scared for a few seconds and then laugh about it almost immediately. Horror can give you nightmares. My impression -- and I could be totally off-base -- is that the Pumpkins differentiated between the two.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
I think the issue we are dancing around here is that parents need to take more responsibility for their kids and what they allow their kids to see/do. I have never let my daughter go in a haunted house or on a ride that I haven't experienced myself first. Parents should be able to judge what their children can handle, and it shouldn't be up the park to set age limits.
That said, I agree that generally children do not belong at Howl-O-Scream (or in the mall at Christmas time, but is a whole other rant).
BGWScream said:
I think the issue we are dancing around here is that parents need to take more responsibility for their kids and what they allow their kids to see/do. I have never let my daughter go in a haunted house or on a ride that I haven't experienced myself first. Parents should be able to judge what their children can handle, and it shouldn't be up the park to set age limits.
That said, I agree that generally children do not belong at Howl-O-Scream (or in the mall at Christmas time, but is a whole other rant).
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
I agree, but would I be wrong in thinking that if a child is old enough to experience controlled scare in a low horror environment, then they would understand that the content in a high horror environment wouldn't really matter all that much? I mean I was into horror at a very early age, but I understood the concept of all horror is that "it's not real" once I understood that fear can be enjoyable.
I agree, but would I be wrong in thinking that if a child is old enough to experience controlled scare in a low horror environment, then they would understand that the content in a high horror environment wouldn't really matter all that much? I mean I was into horror at a very early age, but I understood the concept of all horror is that "it's not real" once I understood that fear can be enjoyable.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Agree. See my other post.
Doctor Who is full of monsters and is supposedly targeted at kids. Obviously, it depends on the person. My daughter loves Weeping Angels, for example.
Pretzel Kaiser said:
Agree. See my other post.
Doctor Who is full of monsters and is supposedly targeted at kids. Obviously, it depends on the person. My daughter loves Weeping Angels, for example.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Oh my gosh there are so many reasons and ideas just flowing through here. Why does everything have to be a complex situation?
I have to say that Halloween has two sides. The dark side and the light side. Both are respectively catered to fit one type of group and the exact opposite group. We have the dark side which features more of the adult oriented themes as well as intense fear, whilst the light side is more about the mischievous yet non fear inducing fun.
I think there is no balance at the park, or at most parks for that matter. So many places try to cater to the dark side for the fact that alcohol, sex, and scares sell and they sell good. Trick or treating, pumpkin carving, pumpkin painting, etc. just doesn't sell as well, it sells well just not as well.
Now we go into, who is right for the dark side and the light side? Obviously in the grand scheme of generalization adults fit one theme, children fit another. The problem is, there is a gray area in generalizing. Not all children are scared of the dark side, not all adults enjoy the dark side. So then you have to think about okay, how can we not generalize whilst informing people what is right for them?
Ratings can work, if the GP actually uses them. But then how do you rate scariness and content? And how does rating determine which is right for a particular age? Ratings alone are not the answer.
I think what it comes down to is a person's understanding of fear and adult content. Obviously, adult content is adult content, but understanding fear is different. Most adults have a good understanding of real and fake as well as what scares them and how intense it scares them. So now you are traveling into phobias. How are phobias developed and how do they they add to a child's understanding of fear.
I believe that all children are more or less new to the world. I would like to think a child has seen, heard, and experienced less than an adult. When you don't understand something you fear it or you enjoy it. I think many children need something for them to understand what causes fear and how to deal with it.
Most children see things black and white as well, either I am scared or I am not scared. If I am scared I am not happy, if I'm not scared, I am happy. There is not always gray area in where scared could actually mean happy.
So when it comes down to it my conclusion is based that children are still developing a sense of fear and how to handle it. They need something that they can work up to. For example, roller coasters. Obviously children could not handle the Griffon, but would go for Groover's Alpine Express, yet there is no rating for coasters?
I myself have yet to find a way to deal with children properly, ratings aren't the only answer, but I am sure they can be a part of the answer. Until I see or think of an idea that can handle children properly, I will just reject children from Howl-o-Scream
Which is what I think is what is going on now.
Oh my gosh there are so many reasons and ideas just flowing through here. Why does everything have to be a complex situation?
I have to say that Halloween has two sides. The dark side and the light side. Both are respectively catered to fit one type of group and the exact opposite group. We have the dark side which features more of the adult oriented themes as well as intense fear, whilst the light side is more about the mischievous yet non fear inducing fun.
I think there is no balance at the park, or at most parks for that matter. So many places try to cater to the dark side for the fact that alcohol, sex, and scares sell and they sell good. Trick or treating, pumpkin carving, pumpkin painting, etc. just doesn't sell as well, it sells well just not as well.
Now we go into, who is right for the dark side and the light side? Obviously in the grand scheme of generalization adults fit one theme, children fit another. The problem is, there is a gray area in generalizing. Not all children are scared of the dark side, not all adults enjoy the dark side. So then you have to think about okay, how can we not generalize whilst informing people what is right for them?
Ratings can work, if the GP actually uses them. But then how do you rate scariness and content? And how does rating determine which is right for a particular age? Ratings alone are not the answer.
I think what it comes down to is a person's understanding of fear and adult content. Obviously, adult content is adult content, but understanding fear is different. Most adults have a good understanding of real and fake as well as what scares them and how intense it scares them. So now you are traveling into phobias. How are phobias developed and how do they they add to a child's understanding of fear.
I believe that all children are more or less new to the world. I would like to think a child has seen, heard, and experienced less than an adult. When you don't understand something you fear it or you enjoy it. I think many children need something for them to understand what causes fear and how to deal with it.
Most children see things black and white as well, either I am scared or I am not scared. If I am scared I am not happy, if I'm not scared, I am happy. There is not always gray area in where scared could actually mean happy.
So when it comes down to it my conclusion is based that children are still developing a sense of fear and how to handle it. They need something that they can work up to. For example, roller coasters. Obviously children could not handle the Griffon, but would go for Groover's Alpine Express, yet there is no rating for coasters?
I myself have yet to find a way to deal with children properly, ratings aren't the only answer, but I am sure they can be a part of the answer. Until I see or think of an idea that can handle children properly, I will just reject children from Howl-o-Scream
Which is what I think is what is going on now.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
While I agree with basically everything Party Rocker said (well stated by the way), I have to point something out of the sake of argument:
I'm not a proponent of house ratings, but I sorta think coasters are a bad comparison. You can see what you're getting into with a coaster but with a fully inclosed house, the general public (let alone their children) really have no idea what to expect.
While I agree with basically everything Party Rocker said (well stated by the way), I have to point something out of the sake of argument:
Party Rocker said:
I'm not a proponent of house ratings, but I sorta think coasters are a bad comparison. You can see what you're getting into with a coaster but with a fully inclosed house, the general public (let alone their children) really have no idea what to expect.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Well I mean that is the only difference and a rather big difference, you are also dealing with the fear of heights, falling, etc. and not just a bunch of different fears like clowns, pirates, vampires, etc.
I would like to divert from the topic of children or no children or some children or whatever to actual Howl-o-Scream 2013 updates, if nobody minds.
The stage in Killarney has been worked on some more. You now see two giant circle stages on either side, platforms I guess you'd call them. It is still incredibly bare. You can see under the platforms and view the supports and it looks terrible.
I am quite interested to know what the issue is exactly? In previous years they could spring out the Jack is Back stage or the Inoculation Station platform in one day, fully done, now it's taking weeks to just build it?
Well I mean that is the only difference and a rather big difference, you are also dealing with the fear of heights, falling, etc. and not just a bunch of different fears like clowns, pirates, vampires, etc.
I would like to divert from the topic of children or no children or some children or whatever to actual Howl-o-Scream 2013 updates, if nobody minds.
The stage in Killarney has been worked on some more. You now see two giant circle stages on either side, platforms I guess you'd call them. It is still incredibly bare. You can see under the platforms and view the supports and it looks terrible.
I am quite interested to know what the issue is exactly? In previous years they could spring out the Jack is Back stage or the Inoculation Station platform in one day, fully done, now it's taking weeks to just build it?
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Totally disagree. There are any number of children's horror stories (RL Stine, Harry Potter, Doctor Who, etc). Do specific types of content and intensity vary? Sure. But children enjoy being scared. I don't see that as an age-based issue.
Party Rocker said:
Totally disagree. There are any number of children's horror stories (RL Stine, Harry Potter, Doctor Who, etc). Do specific types of content and intensity vary? Sure. But children enjoy being scared. I don't see that as an age-based issue.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Honestly, even though I'm still a few years from becoming a parent, my belief is that it's on the parent to be responsible and rational about bringing a kid through a maze. And it's also up to the maze security to spot and remove terrified children promptly. If they see a parent dragging a bawling, shivering child through a maze they have no business being in, they need to step in and say, "Sir/ma'am, please step out this way. Your child is ruining the experience for other guests". When I was ten, my parents brought me through 1 maze, and when they realized I was absolutely pee-my-pants horrified, they stopped asking me to go on mazes or through scarezones until i was ready. My mom or my dad would take me through one of the "safe" ways (train, skyride, or other path), while the other would take turns venturing through the scarezone and meeting us (that is, when they didn't just bribe me with ice cream or a lemonade icee). A little selfish of young me? Yeah, maybe, but my parents were selfless and responsible, and mindful of other peoples experience.
Honestly, even though I'm still a few years from becoming a parent, my belief is that it's on the parent to be responsible and rational about bringing a kid through a maze. And it's also up to the maze security to spot and remove terrified children promptly. If they see a parent dragging a bawling, shivering child through a maze they have no business being in, they need to step in and say, "Sir/ma'am, please step out this way. Your child is ruining the experience for other guests". When I was ten, my parents brought me through 1 maze, and when they realized I was absolutely pee-my-pants horrified, they stopped asking me to go on mazes or through scarezones until i was ready. My mom or my dad would take me through one of the "safe" ways (train, skyride, or other path), while the other would take turns venturing through the scarezone and meeting us (that is, when they didn't just bribe me with ice cream or a lemonade icee). A little selfish of young me? Yeah, maybe, but my parents were selfless and responsible, and mindful of other peoples experience.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Which is EXACTLY what I did...and, coincidentally, that date is now getting ready for her 4th HOS--and the 1st as Mrs. FrontSeatMafia.
chickenking said:FrontSeatMafia said:
Rum!!
Which is EXACTLY what I did...and, coincidentally, that date is now getting ready for her 4th HOS--and the 1st as Mrs. FrontSeatMafia.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
There it is with the generalization again. Please note I did not say all children. I would also like to continue to say that there are certain aspect of your listed examples that reference the "in between" group. For example, Harry Potter was targeted (when it first came out) at children aged around 11 - 13, which is the borderline child/teen group. I don't consider Harry Potter as a fear inducing story simply because it is more about wonder, magic, and adventure with some frightening creatures, but not that many. The amount of frightening creatures and scenes started off on the lower side and worked their way up until the end. Doctor Who is more targeted to the 15 - 19 crowd, the teenage group. It is more complicated and not intended for younger children to really comprehend. The ever twisting plots, with this and that, large names, etc. It clearly wasn't meant for those younger than 11. R.L. Stine has always been more of a 12 - 14 aged group thing.
See I am pointing out ages because of a certain reason. I am generalizing a crowd based on their overall characteristics.
I think when you do a scientific study of all ages who doesn't and does enjoy fear, you will have more children 12 and under that do not enjoy fear. But that is just a generalization. It only helps us identify the source of the issue. Because there is a vast amount of children that clearly do not enjoy being scared and I will agree that intensity has a lot to do with that as well. Like I referenced coaster in my other post, children can enjoy coasters, but it depends on the intensity. Intensity is the problem that we face because the less intense something it is, it ventures on the light side of things. For example, Jack! His face was less and less detailed, complex, and overall less intense. Therefore this made his face more so for the lighter side of the event.
I think that the following factors are to be considered when determining a rating or scale of how appropriate something is:
- Age: As I said, younger ages are more likely to find something more scary than other age groups.
- Intensity: The amount of detail and complexity as well as the amount and approach of scares.
- Setting: Bright white warehouse lights made Pompeii less scary for kids, but turn them off and things get a lot more scary.
I think I might have to create a rubric on how I would rate things, of course this would be my interpretation of how to rate and I surely don't think everyone would be able to use it but it could be helpful.
Nic said:
There it is with the generalization again. Please note I did not say all children. I would also like to continue to say that there are certain aspect of your listed examples that reference the "in between" group. For example, Harry Potter was targeted (when it first came out) at children aged around 11 - 13, which is the borderline child/teen group. I don't consider Harry Potter as a fear inducing story simply because it is more about wonder, magic, and adventure with some frightening creatures, but not that many. The amount of frightening creatures and scenes started off on the lower side and worked their way up until the end. Doctor Who is more targeted to the 15 - 19 crowd, the teenage group. It is more complicated and not intended for younger children to really comprehend. The ever twisting plots, with this and that, large names, etc. It clearly wasn't meant for those younger than 11. R.L. Stine has always been more of a 12 - 14 aged group thing.
See I am pointing out ages because of a certain reason. I am generalizing a crowd based on their overall characteristics.
I think when you do a scientific study of all ages who doesn't and does enjoy fear, you will have more children 12 and under that do not enjoy fear. But that is just a generalization. It only helps us identify the source of the issue. Because there is a vast amount of children that clearly do not enjoy being scared and I will agree that intensity has a lot to do with that as well. Like I referenced coaster in my other post, children can enjoy coasters, but it depends on the intensity. Intensity is the problem that we face because the less intense something it is, it ventures on the light side of things. For example, Jack! His face was less and less detailed, complex, and overall less intense. Therefore this made his face more so for the lighter side of the event.
I think that the following factors are to be considered when determining a rating or scale of how appropriate something is:
- Age: As I said, younger ages are more likely to find something more scary than other age groups.
- Intensity: The amount of detail and complexity as well as the amount and approach of scares.
- Setting: Bright white warehouse lights made Pompeii less scary for kids, but turn them off and things get a lot more scary.
I think I might have to create a rubric on how I would rate things, of course this would be my interpretation of how to rate and I surely don't think everyone would be able to use it but it could be helpful.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
The latest in HOS updates! Root of All Evil will have a different path and different setup. Part of that pathway is actually garden archways you walkthough that are put together making like a tunnel of sorts, think of the exit of Catacombs and Ice Palace, but with plants.
Then it appears that you walk into and through one of the shacks, looks like a great place for a scare.
The latest in HOS updates! Root of All Evil will have a different path and different setup. Part of that pathway is actually garden archways you walkthough that are put together making like a tunnel of sorts, think of the exit of Catacombs and Ice Palace, but with plants.
Then it appears that you walk into and through one of the shacks, looks like a great place for a scare.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Oh you mean it'll actually look like a garden, rather than a garden center?
Like it should have been done last year.
Oh you mean it'll actually look like a garden, rather than a garden center?
Like it should have been done last year.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Look as far as children (which I do not have) I shall reference my past to explain the issue of parenting at HOS.
(I was born after the time of the original Star Trek, I'm not that old. I saw reruns on TV)
I loved Spock as a kid. LOOOOVED Spock. I wanted to marry him and live on the Enterprise. I carried a Spock doll everywhere and he was my hero.
Star Trek: Wrath of Khan came out. My mom went to watch it. Then gave me the bad news. "Honey, you know Spock is a fictional character right? That he is really an actor played by Leonard Nimoy right?"
"Of course" I said as a wee tike. I knew it was all an act- I wasn't stupid. My mom said blankly "Spock dies in the movie.. just the character not the actor OK?"
Sure I thought, I can handle it.. how could I not see the movie with SPOCK.. the man- the hero. After arguing that I was OK to see the movie- I was a big girl and could handle it; my mom said OK.
In the film the scene came where Kirk was separated from Spock by glass; their hands pressed.. Spock was dieing.. Nooooooo! I started crying.. screaming in the theater. "NO SPOCK! DON'T DIE.. PLEASE DON'T DIE" and he did. Then to my mom's horror I started screaming "THEY KILLED SPOCK.. THOSE PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS MOVIE KILLED SPOCK!" My mom grabbed me and ran me out of the theater trying to calm me down.
Fact is.. no parent no matter how hard they try to prepare a child, has no idea what to expect when they are faced with such stimuli. My mom did her best, yet I was still unconsoled.
Every child is different.. a parent makes the decision to take a child into a scare zone, haunted house, maze.. then the kids hate it and are scared to death. Well you live and learn. Maybe next year.
I am tired of parents whining about how scary HOS is. Deal with it. Don't blame the park (or in my case the studio who made the film)- just deal with it and move on.
Look as far as children (which I do not have) I shall reference my past to explain the issue of parenting at HOS.
(I was born after the time of the original Star Trek, I'm not that old. I saw reruns on TV)
I loved Spock as a kid. LOOOOVED Spock. I wanted to marry him and live on the Enterprise. I carried a Spock doll everywhere and he was my hero.
Star Trek: Wrath of Khan came out. My mom went to watch it. Then gave me the bad news. "Honey, you know Spock is a fictional character right? That he is really an actor played by Leonard Nimoy right?"
"Of course" I said as a wee tike. I knew it was all an act- I wasn't stupid. My mom said blankly "Spock dies in the movie.. just the character not the actor OK?"
Sure I thought, I can handle it.. how could I not see the movie with SPOCK.. the man- the hero. After arguing that I was OK to see the movie- I was a big girl and could handle it; my mom said OK.
In the film the scene came where Kirk was separated from Spock by glass; their hands pressed.. Spock was dieing.. Nooooooo! I started crying.. screaming in the theater. "NO SPOCK! DON'T DIE.. PLEASE DON'T DIE" and he did. Then to my mom's horror I started screaming "THEY KILLED SPOCK.. THOSE PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS MOVIE KILLED SPOCK!" My mom grabbed me and ran me out of the theater trying to calm me down.
Fact is.. no parent no matter how hard they try to prepare a child, has no idea what to expect when they are faced with such stimuli. My mom did her best, yet I was still unconsoled.
Every child is different.. a parent makes the decision to take a child into a scare zone, haunted house, maze.. then the kids hate it and are scared to death. Well you live and learn. Maybe next year.
I am tired of parents whining about how scary HOS is. Deal with it. Don't blame the park (or in my case the studio who made the film)- just deal with it and move on.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
OK. I honestly don't know how I found myself in this debate. I simply don't care one way or another about the question of children at HOS. I blame my husband for getting home late from work last night. At the end of the day, I will continue to do what I think is right with my daughter, and the Mothers Against Fun will continue to campaign to bubble wrap the world.
Regardless, a few final thoughts.
I do not think a preference for being scared has much to do with age. Some people enjoy it; some don't. In fact my daughter enjoys scary stories much more than I do, and always has. I think the real issue is content, which is why I liked the Pumpkin rating system. I think there certain images and concepts that are generally too much for children to handle. I have also observed that children's horror fiction and other children's scary stories have significantly less tension than their adult counterparts. Crises in children's stories are generally resolved quickly. I do not agree, however, that children are "unhappy" when they are scared. Literature has has children's horror for centuries.
At the end of the day, people, regardless of age, who do not like being scared should stay away from HOS. And parents need to be responsible for their own children, and stop expecting the world to arrange itself entirely for the children.
OK. I honestly don't know how I found myself in this debate. I simply don't care one way or another about the question of children at HOS. I blame my husband for getting home late from work last night. At the end of the day, I will continue to do what I think is right with my daughter, and the Mothers Against Fun will continue to campaign to bubble wrap the world.
Regardless, a few final thoughts.
I do not think a preference for being scared has much to do with age. Some people enjoy it; some don't. In fact my daughter enjoys scary stories much more than I do, and always has. I think the real issue is content, which is why I liked the Pumpkin rating system. I think there certain images and concepts that are generally too much for children to handle. I have also observed that children's horror fiction and other children's scary stories have significantly less tension than their adult counterparts. Crises in children's stories are generally resolved quickly. I do not agree, however, that children are "unhappy" when they are scared. Literature has has children's horror for centuries.
At the end of the day, people, regardless of age, who do not like being scared should stay away from HOS. And parents need to be responsible for their own children, and stop expecting the world to arrange itself entirely for the children.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
Totally, I've met ten year old who handle fear better than adults. I think where the ratings might lose effectiveness was that a show with singing and dancing with a bit of blood was rated two pumpkins and an environment of a house where being confined in a dark space with terrifying music and things that are designed to scare you is rated three and a half pumpkins. It created a terribly skewed system where a marginal difference between a don't and dance bit and a place designed to trick your psychological instincts to induce fear.
Totally, I've met ten year old who handle fear better than adults. I think where the ratings might lose effectiveness was that a show with singing and dancing with a bit of blood was rated two pumpkins and an environment of a house where being confined in a dark space with terrifying music and things that are designed to scare you is rated three and a half pumpkins. It created a terribly skewed system where a marginal difference between a don't and dance bit and a place designed to trick your psychological instincts to induce fear.
RE: Howl-O-Scream 2013: Fear Has a Way of Spreading
I couldn't say it better myself! I have two kids 15 and 6 and both enjoy Howl-O-Scream. My 6 year old does not go into the houses because I know he couldn't handle it and I don't want to take away from other people in there. I have never expected Busch to make their event around my kids. My 15 year old has gone every year since she was 2 and the same applied for her. Until she was ready she never went into the houses. It kills me to watch the webcam and see parents dragging their children through the houses or the kids are hysterical. Is there baby swap for the houses? I agree with you if they don't want to be scared they should stay home. Why traumatize your child just for your pleasure. It was hilarious last year (not really) to see parents telling the roaming hordes "don't scare my child". Seriously go home if you don't want them scared. Plenty of signs, and announcements telling you to leave before 6pm. Ugh! Ok I'm getting off my soapbox.
Nic said:
I couldn't say it better myself! I have two kids 15 and 6 and both enjoy Howl-O-Scream. My 6 year old does not go into the houses because I know he couldn't handle it and I don't want to take away from other people in there. I have never expected Busch to make their event around my kids. My 15 year old has gone every year since she was 2 and the same applied for her. Until she was ready she never went into the houses. It kills me to watch the webcam and see parents dragging their children through the houses or the kids are hysterical. Is there baby swap for the houses? I agree with you if they don't want to be scared they should stay home. Why traumatize your child just for your pleasure. It was hilarious last year (not really) to see parents telling the roaming hordes "don't scare my child". Seriously go home if you don't want them scared. Plenty of signs, and announcements telling you to leave before 6pm. Ugh! Ok I'm getting off my soapbox.
