I assume the other train was in the station. I didn't see it on the track and they didn't have anyone stuck on the ride.
I saw someone say it had to do with a sensor, as well.
Griffon
- Thread starter Zachary
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I assume the other train was in the station. I didn't see it on the track and they didn't have anyone stuck on the ride.
I saw someone say it had to do with a sensor, as well.
So I think we can rule out 2 trains being in the same block, yeah?
What are the actual block zones on the ride?
I'd guess they'd be the following:
I'm basing this on having seen at least 2 trains stacked behind the station, that they can stop trains on the lift, they can stop trains on the top before the drop, MCBR can obviously stop a train, and I believe I've seen a train come off the MCBR while there were still 2 trains stacked behind the station.
Of course, my memory could be deceptive or it's been reprogrammed since I last saw this.
I'd guess they'd be the following:
- Station
- Lift
- Pre-Drop (after lift, before Drop Hold Brake)
- Drop Hold Brake to MCBR
- MCBR to Safety Brakes (1st set of final brake run brakes)
- Waiting Brakes
- Transfer Section
I'm basing this on having seen at least 2 trains stacked behind the station, that they can stop trains on the lift, they can stop trains on the top before the drop, MCBR can obviously stop a train, and I believe I've seen a train come off the MCBR while there were still 2 trains stacked behind the station.
Of course, my memory could be deceptive or it's been reprogrammed since I last saw this.
The two highlighted sections are spots I'm not sure that they would want to consider a block.
To clarify the transfer section, the reason I think it is a block as it can definitely start/stop trains moving and is typically used as the last waiting section before the station.
(Fun fact, looking at Google Maps seems to indicate they took the shot when they were transferring a train since it's connected to the storage bay and not the main circuit).
Better question though, @warfelg, why do you think they prefer to not consider it as one?
Totally understand they wouldn't want any train on the lift if the one ahead hasn't dropped yet, but both the lift itself and the top have a way of stopping a train so by definition they could be considered block sections - would only stop in maintenance mode or for an e-stop in those sections though.
(Fun fact, looking at Google Maps seems to indicate they took the shot when they were transferring a train since it's connected to the storage bay and not the main circuit).
Better question though, @warfelg, why do you think they prefer to not consider it as one?
Totally understand they wouldn't want any train on the lift if the one ahead hasn't dropped yet, but both the lift itself and the top have a way of stopping a train so by definition they could be considered block sections - would only stop in maintenance mode or for an e-stop in those sections though.
I remember seeing Sheikra being evaced and a train was on the lift and another was at the top before the drop.
I was more thinking about the time when, on one of the first insider tours when they took people up to the top that good friends became engaged up there. Though, tbf, I only heard the story and wasn't there, guessing there probably wasn't a train up there.
I'm too lazy to search for it on my phone, but I believe there's a post here somewhere that shows staff doing a simulated e-stop at the top then eventually get in the seats and go for a ride.
I'm too lazy to search for it on my phone, but I believe there's a post here somewhere that shows staff doing a simulated e-stop at the top then eventually get in the seats and go for a ride.
The simple thought is evacuation. If they stop on the chain, then there's no way to evacuate without running the train through the course. (This admittedly is my urban planner brain at work considering emergency services). And yes you could use the brakes on the top of the lift, but again it's more about the safety aspect of where potential failures along the system could happen. Additionally use the transfer track as one when typically they could be considered part of the brake run is an issue.
I don't see it that way still though - they have methods to evacuate guests on both the lift and the top of the ride (I'm excluding the actual drop where it holds you - that does technically stop trains but seems highly unrealistic to allow for evacs), and there is a video somewhere around here of this happening (again, my laziness) at least on the top. I see where it's more ideal that a train is closer to the ground for an evacuation, but realistically if an e-stop is necessary it's better to stop all trains as soon as possible wherever they may be, not only after getting to the final brakes.
Also, it's not uncommon for B&M to design their transfer tracks as additional holding spots for stacking trains (Alpie and AC also do this) - this is how they can stack at least 2 trains behind the station during normal operations. Therefore, it's perfectly realistic to think of it as extra block. To clarify further, this is with the transfer track in position to be used as a regular brake section and not when it's being used to move trains in/out of storage.
Again, there's the theoretically you could do these things.
But then there's the reality of if you should. So let's say you had 6 trains, and there's an estop issue. Especially if you have trains on the lift, top, and MCBR that's 3 different spots that rescue crews have to go to in order to evacuate people. So that either means 3 teams, or 1 team and trains of people having to wait a long time. Now I'm not sure how long an evacuation takes, but you could be talking upwards of an hour with no water, shade, restroom, or food in the middle of a Virginia summer.
Additionally continually stacking at the various break sections on the end of the ride would also mean even more time within the coaster operations that you are just sitting and waiting. And they likely would never do those back to back sections for the case of brake failure.
Honestly, it's fine to want to see operations increase, but there's also a line. I think you could go to 4 trains, but cramming the course would lead to many more problems of delays throughout the course. I would say, think of how annoying HRRR is at UO with all the stops and the fact that it doesn't get through the course with some better transitions.
But then there's the reality of if you should. So let's say you had 6 trains, and there's an estop issue. Especially if you have trains on the lift, top, and MCBR that's 3 different spots that rescue crews have to go to in order to evacuate people. So that either means 3 teams, or 1 team and trains of people having to wait a long time. Now I'm not sure how long an evacuation takes, but you could be talking upwards of an hour with no water, shade, restroom, or food in the middle of a Virginia summer.
Additionally continually stacking at the various break sections on the end of the ride would also mean even more time within the coaster operations that you are just sitting and waiting. And they likely would never do those back to back sections for the case of brake failure.
Honestly, it's fine to want to see operations increase, but there's also a line. I think you could go to 4 trains, but cramming the course would lead to many more problems of delays throughout the course. I would say, think of how annoying HRRR is at UO with all the stops and the fact that it doesn't get through the course with some better transitions.
My mention of 6 train ops is purely hypothetical, but 4 trains I think is max but usually it's 3. There's only so many trains a good crew can cycle before it's just endless stacking and a possible setup.
Practically, if a train is on the lift or the top then the next train has to be clearing the MCBR for it to advance into the course. But in the event of an e-stop with evacuation a train can be left on the lift or at the top without any issues so they can operate independently thus meaning they're separate blocks even if they generally get used as a singular block.
Yes, it could be uncomfortable for guests stuck there, but unless it's a medical emergency that caused the e-stop and requires a rescue team or emergency services to be called in, most likely it's going to be the ride crew and/or other staff called in. I think that's fairly common during e-stop evacuations for guests to be left stuck for awhile.
As for the transfer track - i think there's 4 sets of brakes in the final brake run, but only 3 capable of fully stopping a train. When trains are stacked on the transfer track right behind the station, the next inbound train will stop 2 blocks behind the transfer track thus leaving a block between. However, after a few moments I usually see it advance to the block right behind the transfer track thus clearing for the next inbound train to be able to stop.
Obviously, it's always better for the ops to be on a roll and there to be little to no stacking, but it does happen and the blocks are set up so they can accommodate it with no technical penalties.
Practically, if a train is on the lift or the top then the next train has to be clearing the MCBR for it to advance into the course. But in the event of an e-stop with evacuation a train can be left on the lift or at the top without any issues so they can operate independently thus meaning they're separate blocks even if they generally get used as a singular block.
Yes, it could be uncomfortable for guests stuck there, but unless it's a medical emergency that caused the e-stop and requires a rescue team or emergency services to be called in, most likely it's going to be the ride crew and/or other staff called in. I think that's fairly common during e-stop evacuations for guests to be left stuck for awhile.
As for the transfer track - i think there's 4 sets of brakes in the final brake run, but only 3 capable of fully stopping a train. When trains are stacked on the transfer track right behind the station, the next inbound train will stop 2 blocks behind the transfer track thus leaving a block between. However, after a few moments I usually see it advance to the block right behind the transfer track thus clearing for the next inbound train to be able to stop.
Obviously, it's always better for the ops to be on a roll and there to be little to no stacking, but it does happen and the blocks are set up so they can accommodate it with no technical penalties.
Alright, just a couple of thoughts after catching up on the myriad of posts since yesterday morning...
1. My original comment was on the premise that griffon was "stuck." It looks like it was stopped there intentionally to me.
2. A harness sensor will not cause an estop. E-stop circuits are all hard wired (for reliability), often interlocked with the PLC. A device that connects and disconnects from the control system periodically will not be in the e-stop circuit. Watch the IOE video on FB about ASi modules for info as to how harness sensors connect to the main ride PLC.
3. Sheikra has 2 lift blocks, allowing for two trains on the lift hill at a time. Griffon is not designed this way. In theory, Griffon could have a train on the lift and the drop at the same time, but see #6 as to why that is operationally impossible.
4. There is a manual drop release on the drop chain to allow a stopped train to continue to the block brakes if it stops on the edge.
5. Rides often have way more blocks than needed. This is to keep from "setting-up" trains mid course if a train ahead is running a tad slower. Apollo has 6. Griffon has 7. Alpie has 6. Verbolten has 12. DarKastle had 54? Griffon's are Station, Lift, Drop Brake, Block Brakes, Service (Main) Brakes, Safety Brakes (left unoccupied if a train is on the transfer), and Transfer. Having more than 3 trains makes no sense unless you want to have 2 trains stacked all the time.
6. The bottleneck in Griffon operations is the drop floors. Time how long it takes to raise them when a train comes in and when it leaves. Compare that to Apollo or Alpie where riders can exit almost as soon as the train stops. You will see what a great difference it makes. When I worked there (2 seasons about 6 or 7 years ago) we rarely ran 3 trains and almost always had one sitting on the transfer unless we were really hauling. 40 dispatches an hour was reached only a couple of times while I was there, but I had to specifically coordinate the right team members in the right positions in order to maximize efficiency.
7. Evacs on Griffon are rare, but when they do happen, they take a long time. All personnel have to wear full body harnesses and carry supplemental harnesses for the riders. All operators at Griffon are required to attend trainings at least once every 60 days, with training days offered every 30. Most people ended up going to every one. When one does happen, teams of at least 5 are dispatched to each train location. Most of the time, the trains are either on the lift or main brake run. Obviously, the lift takes the longest, due to having to getting the floor pieces to the train location from one of their two storage positions. Even with how long this takes, they can still get it done in the time it takes the WAVY-10 chopper dispatched and flying overhead during the evac. Often times, every supervisor in the park that has gone through training, even higher ups, will make a b-line to the ride to help get people off, often eliminating the standard ops all together. From what I remember, the goal is to make a decision to evac after the first 5 minutes of a shutdown, Gearing up done by 10 minutes, at the ride vehicle by 15 minutes, completed floor for the first row by 20 min. Ride clear of guests by 35-40 min. Don't hold me to that, but that's what I remember from my time there. Compare that to a ride where there is a floor, like Apollo, where everyone could be off in 20 min, if needed. Or 30 seconds for Verbolten Building in case of fire (they have whole train releases inside the show building).
1. My original comment was on the premise that griffon was "stuck." It looks like it was stopped there intentionally to me.
2. A harness sensor will not cause an estop. E-stop circuits are all hard wired (for reliability), often interlocked with the PLC. A device that connects and disconnects from the control system periodically will not be in the e-stop circuit. Watch the IOE video on FB about ASi modules for info as to how harness sensors connect to the main ride PLC.
3. Sheikra has 2 lift blocks, allowing for two trains on the lift hill at a time. Griffon is not designed this way. In theory, Griffon could have a train on the lift and the drop at the same time, but see #6 as to why that is operationally impossible.
4. There is a manual drop release on the drop chain to allow a stopped train to continue to the block brakes if it stops on the edge.
5. Rides often have way more blocks than needed. This is to keep from "setting-up" trains mid course if a train ahead is running a tad slower. Apollo has 6. Griffon has 7. Alpie has 6. Verbolten has 12. DarKastle had 54? Griffon's are Station, Lift, Drop Brake, Block Brakes, Service (Main) Brakes, Safety Brakes (left unoccupied if a train is on the transfer), and Transfer. Having more than 3 trains makes no sense unless you want to have 2 trains stacked all the time.
6. The bottleneck in Griffon operations is the drop floors. Time how long it takes to raise them when a train comes in and when it leaves. Compare that to Apollo or Alpie where riders can exit almost as soon as the train stops. You will see what a great difference it makes. When I worked there (2 seasons about 6 or 7 years ago) we rarely ran 3 trains and almost always had one sitting on the transfer unless we were really hauling. 40 dispatches an hour was reached only a couple of times while I was there, but I had to specifically coordinate the right team members in the right positions in order to maximize efficiency.
7. Evacs on Griffon are rare, but when they do happen, they take a long time. All personnel have to wear full body harnesses and carry supplemental harnesses for the riders. All operators at Griffon are required to attend trainings at least once every 60 days, with training days offered every 30. Most people ended up going to every one. When one does happen, teams of at least 5 are dispatched to each train location. Most of the time, the trains are either on the lift or main brake run. Obviously, the lift takes the longest, due to having to getting the floor pieces to the train location from one of their two storage positions. Even with how long this takes, they can still get it done in the time it takes the WAVY-10 chopper dispatched and flying overhead during the evac. Often times, every supervisor in the park that has gone through training, even higher ups, will make a b-line to the ride to help get people off, often eliminating the standard ops all together. From what I remember, the goal is to make a decision to evac after the first 5 minutes of a shutdown, Gearing up done by 10 minutes, at the ride vehicle by 15 minutes, completed floor for the first row by 20 min. Ride clear of guests by 35-40 min. Don't hold me to that, but that's what I remember from my time there. Compare that to a ride where there is a floor, like Apollo, where everyone could be off in 20 min, if needed. Or 30 seconds for Verbolten Building in case of fire (they have whole train releases inside the show building).
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Now all we need is a block diagram for each ride - @ControlsEE I think if you were to give your perspective on these rides similar to ElToroRyan but with your own spin, it'd be YouTube gold.
Well thanks! I do find ElToroRyan's videos entertaining and have even offered to consult on BGW rides. Trust me, Griffon is one Problematic Roller Coaster.
He did I-305 without having worked it (though he did work for CF at some point so maybe he has connections to get better data than us regular people), so why not Griffon?
I'd also like to see Nessie covered since I can imagine the changes to ride programming over the years plus the whacky (by modern standards) second lift design is worth a mention... Still upset Kevin on Defunctland mentioned it was in Tampa on the Orient Express vid yet obviously knows it's in Virginia in other videos.
I'd also like to see Nessie covered since I can imagine the changes to ride programming over the years plus the whacky (by modern standards) second lift design is worth a mention... Still upset Kevin on Defunctland mentioned it was in Tampa on the Orient Express vid yet obviously knows it's in Virginia in other videos.
Yeah, I305 is so obvious that you just have to watch it to see how bad it is. LNM still has an Allen-Bradley PLC-5 from the late 80's. I would love to do a PLC-5 to L8x series PLC conversion on that ride. And boy, I would make some changes! Anyways, that is probably best discussed on the LNM thread...
So this kinda gets into the emergency management part of my mind, and why you would want to avoid certain over-stacking in a way on course. So if you could clear everyone up on the lift in 35 minutes, that's at least a half hour anyone else would have to wait.
Would be nice if they went to 4 trains, but even with that 3 is kinda the perfect number. It's rare in my experience to have to wait to get into the station. In a perfect world one train would clear the lift, as the next one hits the MCBR, so the third is already in a loading situation. If you got a 4th on there you would have one waiting somewhere.
I'll admit too when I was an outsider looking at plans a company brought me, I looked at the what could go wrong. If I could continually poke holes with safety concerns, and there's not much of a solution then it wasn't likely to be approved as is. If it could be defended then it was likely to go through.
Anywho this is off the topic of what was originally brought up.
What I was saying was that multiple teams would go out to each of the trains. Worst case would be on on the lift and one on the main brakes with people on it. One team to the lift, the other to the brakes. The brakes team would assist the lift team once the brakes were clear of guests. Everyone off the ride, no matter where the trains stop, in 35-40 minutes.
Sorry should have been a little clearer, I was talking in the situation of someone on the brakes on top of the lift while there was also a train on the lift.
EDIT:
More thinking if there's multiple sets of the floors for emergency use, enough harnesses, enough space to let people walk down the cat walk. It seems like a near impossible task to unload both up there at the same time.
I see. Well there are sets of floors at the top of the lift, mid-lift, bottom of the lift, and under the station. That is what is in those boxes mounted along the lift hill. Also, the elevator that runs up the right side of the lift is able to carry 1 row at a time (10 people plus an operator)