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They're already working on a coaster likely exceeding $40 million, so realistically they're not going to get another until 2031 at the earliest, it doesn't make sense to poll for it this far out.
While I do think Great Adventure could greatly benefit from a couple extra coasters and that they need to be aggressively investing into the park, I also think it’s important to remember that the park is technically only 1 coaster down from the highest amount they’ve ever had at once and will be back to that amount with the tower spinner (which I still fully believe will be a great addition for the park). I have no doubt the Great Arena’s plot is up next for a coaster if not the remainder of Lantern’s plot.

In the meantime, they absolutely need the flat package the survey included, and then some. Granted, 3 of the flats we lost didn’t even operate last season (Parachuter’s Perch/Cyborg/Skyride), one barely operated (Zumanjaro), one was an upcharge (DDD), and the other had been rumored for removal for as long as I can remember (Twister), but they should’ve been planning replacements for these for a while, especially the SBNO ones.

The drop tower needs to be PART of the flat package, not a separate entry. We’ll never see a War on Lines level investment again for a single year, but we need bare minimum another 2012 level flat package.
 
The issue is that the merger doesn't wipe out what came before it—SFGAdv was already due for major investment prior to the merger—the bloodbath of removals since the merger (one major coaster, one flagship coaster, and the park's biggest/best flat all included) have just deepened the pit the park is in.

I played defense for the outlook of SFGAdv early on because I fully expected the new Six Flags to pursue a really aggressive investment plan for the property. It seemed like obviously good business. Great Adventure is unquestionably one of the highest-ceiling, least-capitalized-upon assets in the chain—and, as covered previously, the park was ALREADY very neglected pre-merger.

Unfortunately, that super aggressive investment plan I was expecting doesn't seem to be materializing yet. Since the merger, the stock has absolutely tanked as management has put the chain into what looks like a tailspin. Maybe they had big plans originally, but things aren't looking great from where I'm sitting now.

The spinner is going to be amazing, but it is still just paying off PART of the NEWLY INCURRED "debt." All the previous neglect still remains. Six Flags will have a hit on their hands when they finally manage to open the now-delayed spinner, but they need to follow that up year after year with significant improvements to the park's lineup. I don't think it's too much to ask for Great Adventure to have a notable family coaster in the pipeline for 2028 or 2029. Hell, honestly, I think they should have scrambled to have a 2026 addition added to the calendar once the spinner was delayed too. The drop tower in the survey would have been a good choice for that probably.

Great Adventure should be an all-hands-on-deck, throw-everything-we've-got-at-the-park situation, but it feels like the chain is treating it as a leisurely stroll. When Cedar Point couldn't get TT2 open for a season, the chain moved mountains to get the park a new, marketable addition. Meanwhile, the same chain gutted Great Adventure and is displaying next to no urgency in their supposed pursuit to redeem the property.
 
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it’s important to remember that the park is technically only 1 coaster down from the highest amount they’ve ever had at once
Yes but.... From El Toro to present they only invested in a major roller coaster twice in 19 years in Flash, and Jersey Devil. Even Flash was still kinda a bit of a budget coaster. Forget Joker and Dark Knight those aren't full blown El Toro or Medusa type additions.

They probably milked the shit out of GADV to prop up the underperforming parks during the great recession, and never reinvested in their own park because of it, and are now seeing the outcome in low attendance. Having to take down KK was partially bad luck it seems. Cedar Fair parks the past 19 years haven't had an issue adding major roller coasters.

So yea, when Spinda Ka opens, I might even expect the drop tower to open the same year. And they would be looking to add another major roller coaster in 2028 since Spinda Ka is delayed a year. As for the flats ride package, they need to get them in there ASAP since they are most likely all coming from closing Six Flags properties.
 
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I think everyone is being super negative here just b/c the survey doesn't include coaster options. Great Adventure has a decent coaster lineup already and the El Toro re-track next year should do wonders for that ride. The park needs to invest in atmosphere (landscaping, theming, food offerings, paint, shows/events) and breadth of attractions like flat rides, and improve the kiddie areas to bring in more families. Then the big coasters will come... and there is a new big coaster currently under construction right now...
 
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm honestly not sure why everyone is being so negative about this survey, this is all stuff they would greatly benefit from. Every park could use a drop tower and a 400 foot freestanding one would be really cool, their kids areas are very out of date, and a Zamperla flat package makes perfect sense to fill the boardwalk area back up. Are people just upset that they didn't mention another coaster in this? They're already working on a coaster likely exceeding $40 million, so realistically they're not going to get another until 2031 at the earliest, it doesn't make sense to poll for it this far out. Maybe a Screamin' Swing or family coaster would be a nice inclusion, but I still think all of these would be great.

I don’t want to hear the argument that they won’t get another coaster because they just got one.

Cedar Point and magic mountain are constantly in the mix for new coasters. Seems great America is now as well. Great adventure used to be comparable to those parks. Now it’s not
 
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I don’t want to hear the argument that they won’t get another coaster because they just got one.
Not that they just got one, but the fact they’re working on one that doesn’t have a clear timeline yet. I’m not surprised they haven’t started planning the next one when they still aren’t clear on what’s going on with the tower coaster timeline wise.
 
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Not that they just got one, but the fact they’re working on one that doesn’t have a clear timeline yet. I’m not surprised they haven’t started planning the next one when they still aren’t clear on what’s going on with the tower coaster timeline wise.
To add to these good points, the context of the delay is tariffs and the unknown nature of them for at least the next 3 years. As long as that is a market force resetting prices every few months with no long-term assurance knowable, upending shipping costs, and disrupting supply chains, I think we should reset out expectations for what could/should be ordered/announced and when. In normal circumstances, what could/should happen in the coming 3-4 years probably would have. Under the tariff circumstances, I think all timelines have to be re-adjusted, unfortunately and maddeningly for us enthusiasts. They can't come out and say that in their PR for several reasons, but that's what's underpinning everything. As much as I'm mad at CF, I'm also sympathetic at a certain point because I know their hands are tied to a large degree. I'm pretty sure they have another coaster or two planned (family and full-scale). But after what they just went through with KK, there's no way they can announce anything if the timing is legitimately up in the air because of tariffs. It would just make things worse to say, 'hey, we're gonna build a giga between the spinner and El Toro for 2028, but, uh, we gotta wait to see about steel prices and shipping costs because we're budgeting $55 million but it'll cost an extra $10 million at current rates, so fingers crossed for '28, guys!" I think what they do need to do is at least tip their hands and generally talk about long-term plans, which they're doing but only in drips and drabs. Just don't announce things with specifics and dates as long as timing is unpredictable. But at least let us know, hey, we're gonna add some coasters in the coming years, details TBD when we can share them. That'd be better than silence or announce/delay.
 
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One question I wonder, when pulling back from being a thoosie (or at least enough of one to comment on this forum), does the average guest make such equivalencies to what's lost vs potential new attractions?

And from a business perspective, what's going to be cheap enough to purchase/install/operate/maintain that has enough marketability to help drive attendance (pass/ticket sales + in-park spending) to achieve whatever objectives, be it paying off debt or otherwise?

From the chain's perspective, are objectives thought of on a per-park or per-region basis, or are they centralized to the chain as a whole... or some mix of the two?

I think the answers to these questions are what gives us the reasons for why the rides are in the survey
 
One question I wonder, when pulling back from being a thoosie (or at least enough of one to comment on this forum), does the average guest make such equivalencies to what's lost vs potential new attractions?

And from a business perspective, what's going to be cheap enough to purchase/install/operate/maintain that has enough marketability to help drive attendance (pass/ticket sales + in-park spending) to achieve whatever objectives, be it paying off debt or otherwise?

From the chain's perspective, are objectives thought of on a per-park or per-region basis, or are they centralized to the chain as a whole... or some mix of the two?

I think the answers to these questions are what gives us the reasons for why the rides are in the survey
Yep. All of this is part of the corporate books side of the equation as we're talking the attendee side of things. It sucks, but from CF's Board's perspective, as they're losing money chain-wide and park-to-park how much can they invest vs what's too much to invest in which rides for which park(s) based on their likelihood of reversing the losses? And at this point for a park like GAdv, it's a catch-22 -- the park is bleeding money because of years of lack of investment and ride loss, and, with significant investment and ride gain over several years it may still be a net loser for the foreseeable future. Can CF absorb the losses and infuse investment to buy time until profits come back with the attractiveness of the park while taking on losses from most everywhere else in the chain, too? I don't know the answer to that.
 
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Removing the economic uncertainty, of which is a major issue both in the budgeting for construction, operations, and maintenance of everything within a given a park and the ability and forecasting attendance because people cut discretionary spending when their finances get tight, the decision-makers are still left with understanding the impact of their decisions.

While we can think in terms of what we'd want to see as thoosies, we aren't the ones paying the bills.

So that goes back to my original question - does the average guest care about the same things in the same way as we do?

In my observation, no, not really. The questions seem usually centered around 'does this thing go upside down', 'does it go super fast', and/or 'how twisty-turny does it get' over 'what's the angle of descent', 'how much airtime' and/or 'why did they have to do x in the layout' among others.

Then the fun part of applying those questions to overall planning a visit (or the next ride) - 'let's go ride the purple one' or 'i'm tired, what's close with a short line'.

I'm guessing the reaction to a new drop tower, for instance, would be more akin to 'holy crap that's tall' and 'i guess they just took out the coaster that went over top of it' than 'i've been on better in the same park' (which, objectively, is unknown unless you've been on both, and even then it'd be an opinion and thus subjective in nature).
 
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I disagree. The park isn't doing well, and thats a reflection of all opinions. Not just thoosies. The crowd differences from 10-15 years ago to now speaks for itself. Just read comments on any of their social media announcements.

Most people would have the same reaction to a 400' drop tower. The money is better spent on something at least a bit different. Maybe if it was like Falcons Fury.
 
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So that goes back to my original question - does the average guest care about the same things in the same way as we do?

In my observation, no, not really. The questions seem usually centered around 'does this thing go upside down', 'does it go super fast', and/or 'how twisty-turny does it get' over 'what's the angle of descent', 'how much airtime' and/or 'why did they have to do x in the layout' among others.
See. I would argue that they do, they just don’t talk about it the same ways as we do. Like I would say those questions you posed show they care, they just don’t memorize everything with it.

I’ll use my wife and mother as my examples here:
While at Hershey, my wife looks at WCR and asked “didn’t that used to be something else, and why does it go upside down now?” I see that as caring, just not knowing why. Vrs my mother who looks at GB and says it can’t be safe because your feet are not secure. I feel like my mom is a far more minority than my wife.

forecasting attendance because people cut discretionary spending when their finances get tight, the decision-makers are still left with understanding the impact of their decisions.
While this is true, giving people a reason to come out and spend the discretionary money they do have with you is the battle.

Sure maybe it cuts the ability to make huge cap investments like massive coasters. But you can get people to come to you by elevating the experience of clean, safe, fun while making sure the F&B is worth having, there’s good entertainment, and people feel like there’s value of being able to do what they want without spending extra.

The golf industry is talking about it a lot right now. How do we keep people using their discretionary money with us. A lot of our surveys are showing that people want an experience they can’t get elsewhere. Sometimes it’s small things like free water, a dog at the turn, free range balls, free locker room access.

So back to the point here:
People don’t completely cut discretionary spending on everything, they become more selective on it. The struggle will be convincing people to spend it with you. And if parks think the answer is throw money at coasters over what people would actually want then they deserve to close of struggle.
 
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Was talking about coasters with a friend recently and another person in the group chat said something along the lines of “I should go ride that Kingda Ka one, it’s not too far from me.” Completely unaware that it was imploded earlier this year, as I’d expect from the average park guest, and when I told them, the reaction was “oh damn that sucks, can’t wait to see what they replace it with.”

Definitely a nice change of pace from the nonstop anger on Reddit lmao
 
See. I would argue that they do, they just don’t talk about it the same ways as we do. Like I would say those questions you posed show they care, they just don’t memorize everything with it.

I’ll use my wife and mother as my examples here:
While at Hershey, my wife looks at WCR and asked “didn’t that used to be something else, and why does it go upside down now?” I see that as caring, just not knowing why. Vrs my mother who looks at GB and says it can’t be safe because your feet are not secure. I feel like my mom is a far more minority than my wife.


While this is true, giving people a reason to come out and spend the discretionary money they do have with you is the battle.

Sure maybe it cuts the ability to make huge cap investments like massive coasters. But you can get people to come to you by elevating the experience of clean, safe, fun while making sure the F&B is worth having, there’s good entertainment, and people feel like there’s value of being able to do what they want without spending extra.

The golf industry is talking about it a lot right now. How do we keep people using their discretionary money with us. A lot of our surveys are showing that people want an experience they can’t get elsewhere. Sometimes it’s small things like free water, a dog at the turn, free range balls, free locker room access.

So back to the point here:
People don’t completely cut discretionary spending on everything, they become more selective on it. The struggle will be convincing people to spend it with you. And if parks think the answer is throw money at coasters over what people would actually want then they deserve to close of struggle.

I wasn't saying they don't care, I was saying what they care about isn't always the same. We have credit whores in the community that will ride anything at least once - sometimes going out of their way to do so - but we also have snobs who only care to ride if it fits within a specific set of parameters. In my observations of average guests, they may just want to go on it because it's new, if it's thrilling or not, or not want to ride if it has certain elements because they believe it will mess with their head/stomach too much or they perceive an unsafe condition. Then there's a convenience aspect - the park is close-by, or the ride is close-by and has a smaller wait than others; or it's indoors, or whatever. And then there's those that seek comfort in destination park visits such as Disney or Universal... or as an add-on to other trips such as Busch Gardens, SeaWorld, Cedar Point, or whatever... and will ride as much as they can to get their day-pass' money's worth.

In any business with consumers/users of the product, the most critical data to understand is not the immediate financials or even observable behavior - they are super important pieces, for sure - but experience. If you deeply understand who your consumers/users are, what they like, what they don't like, how they can be influenced, how you can leverage their influence, and also who are conquest groups of users/consumers (not currently yours, but could be), then you have a good understanding of what types of decisions you need to make for your desired output(s) be they financial or behavioral.

In the context of a website, there's a lot of control points that can be relatively quickly and easily and cheaply changed, behavior is able to be easily observed if analytics are implemented correctly and there's someone that can interpret the results, and rapid iteration is possible. Understanding the experience piece can be difficult, but there's a lot of tools available to relatively quickly and cheaply get a handle on it.

In the context of a park, there's a lot of control points that can't always easily or quickly or cheaply be changed; behavior is less observable - you may get some overall numbers, but may not see in terms of individual guests - and rapid iteration is usually not possible. Understanding the experience piece is possible, but could be harder to get right.

Bring this back to what we're seeing here - there's a good chance that there's been some base-layer experience research already done to make the attraction choice to achieve the goals based on the objective; what these surveys are likely for is to leverage a much larger audience to confirm the findings across all researched options. As we've seen before, there's a good chance that park management will look at survey results, weigh that against their research findings, financial impact analyses, and other analyses that they may have conducted, then decide a path forward if any have a positive outlook... they may also choose to not proceed based on feasibility, and then try again later.
 
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See. I would argue that they do, they just don’t talk about it the same ways as we do. Like I would say those questions you posed show they care, they just don’t memorize everything with it.
There was a post made to the r/newjersey subreddit asking why people don’t go to GAdv anymore and it’s filled with hundreds of responses from non-thoosies talking about how the park is understaffed, rundown, how lots of rides have been closed/removed, and how Hershey is schooling GAdv in every category.

The opinion of GAdv being a dumpster fire isn’t specific to thoosies, it’s the opinion of literally everyone.
 
I think the key point is being lost.

There were surveys for each park. Most of the others included large attractions, but SFGrAdv's didn't.

Even taking into account the spinner, given how many big rides Great Adventure lost during The Great Culling, it seems sketchy that they aren't investigating additional major attractions.

Conspiracy theories about SFGrAdv having a target on its back seem less and less paranoid.
 
I love to make fun of New Jersey of being too stingy of not being the north's florida or California but I don't want to go political

and hey, at least theres a drop tower and some additions that guests been asking for
 
I think the key point is being lost.

There were surveys for each park. Most of the others included large attractions, but SFGrAdv's didn't.

Even taking into account the spinner, given how many big rides Great Adventure lost during The Great Culling, it seems sketchy that they aren't investigating additional major attractions.

Conspiracy theories about SFGrAdv having a target on its back seem less and less paranoid.
What's odd is that a similar thing happened in the 2010s. GAdv got a drop tower, a free spin, and some other flats while other parks like MM and GAm got big coasters. RT going down screwed us out of getting an RMC conversion of our own.

It really doesn't make sense. Maybe they thought GAdv didn't need huge investments because of how crowded the park got despite how badly run it was. If that's the case, they deserve that $100mil loss and more.
 
No. Quite the opposite. They want SF to be successful.

Here’s my doom and gloom thought:
Caro, KD, Dorney, and CW were CF parks, and if you look at the parks getting cuts and stuff it is the legacy SF parks that are between them for the most part. The NorthEast was always going to be their rock and hard place.
 
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