Early Park Closures

[super7]

Tornado watch is a different story.

But I have been their when they closed because of attendance. After traveling 500 miles and spending money on fuel and lodging. So no, 4 hours isn’t acceptable when they advertise 8 to 12 hours. It’s absolutely false advertising.

And don’t say they don’t close because of attendance. They closed early on opening day 100% because of attendance. They knew the forecast when they open the park! There was no tornado warnings that day.

For those defending this practice, just wait until the day you travel that far and have it happen to you.

Like I said we won’t go there often because it’s not worth the risk of their attendance closures. They lost our business and I’m sure we are we t the only ones.

Virtually every trip we have made there the park has had low attendance. Despite prime location in 95 and to DC metro. There’s a reason. Mismanagement.

Low attendance is ultimate the reason the park is not getting major investments. Theming is great and I’m glad to see the park going in that direction but Jungle X is not a big investment. The last big investment this borderline failure park received was 305 all those years ago.

So go ahead. Praise their mismanagement. You get a C Class park at best where it could be one of the best parks in the nation. The management has decided that it will be park for locals, not a vacation destination. With small new attractions. Where they can close on a whim anytime attendance is low because the locals will still buy a season pass.

What a waste of a beautiful park.

 

[Nicole]

Setting aside the additional string of unsupported accusations, KD is not in fact in a "prime location." As a resident of NOVA, I find the drive down I95 in the continuously abysmal traffic to be a huge deterrent. Moreover, BGW is only an hour away, and historically has been a bigger draw than KD (for complex reasons that deserve a much more fulsome debate than can be had here). Additionally, KD is not well-located to have the kind of local base that other parks enjoy.

I do, in fact, travel to parks 100s of miles from home. I always make sure to go when I have a relatively high confidence that the parks are likely to be open, and I generally have some flexibility bult into my schedule.

Once again, I can see how this is frustrating for you, but you are overgeneralizing your singular experience to the overall operations of the park.

 

[Jonesta6]

To the point of location - the Richmond Metro area is large enough to fully support the park, for sure, but Hanover county might as well be the moon for how little many residents are willing to venture away from their comfort zone.

BGW is only an hour away, and historically has been a bigger draw than KD (for complex reasons that deserve a much more fulsome debate than can be had here).

Even though it's about an hour to the east, and KD is about 20ish minutes to the north (maybe 30 depending on where you start) assuming 95 isn't jammed, from what I can tell residents would be more willing to head to BGW.

Funny thing is, from what I can tell, BGW also closes their park early for perhaps the same reasons you're complaining about KD closing for.

My guess for the reason why this happens is between nostalgia for BGW and a stigma among older residents that KD is a run-down hangout for gangs that somehow has persisted even though whatever major events to cause this belief happened somewhere in the late 80s/early 90s as far as I can tell.

 

[warfelg]

KD is not in a populous center. BGW is.

As for the complaints. This is stupid. There was a choice made to go to a place not guaranteed to be open because it’s outdoors. Their a business and it’s their right to close.

 

[netdvn]

For those defending this practice, just wait until the day you travel that far and have it happen to you.

This happened to me last year. Was supposed to make my first visit to CP and at the last minute, the park announced it would be closed the two days I was supposed to be there last June. This was after plane tickets and hotel was booked. Ended up going to PA instead and doing parks there. I ended up saving a little bit of money as hotels in PA are a little cheaper than they were in Sandusky at the time.

Did it suck? Yeah. I've still never been to CP before. Probably won't make it there till next year at the earliest, but Waldameer, Hersheypark and Knoebels definitely made up for losing CP.

 

[horsesboy]

Tornado watch is a different story.

But I have been their when they closed because of attendance. After traveling 500 miles and spending money on fuel and lodging. So no, 4 hours isn’t acceptable when they advertise 8 to 12 hours. It’s absolutely false advertising.

And don’t say they don’t close because of attendance. They closed early on opening day 100% because of attendance. They knew the forecast when they open the park! There was no tornado warnings that day.

For those defending this practice, just wait until the day you travel that far and have it happen to you.

Like I said we won’t go there often because it’s not worth the risk of their attendance closures. They lost our business and I’m sure we are we t the only ones.

Virtually every trip we have made there the park has had low attendance. Despite prime location in 95 and to DC metro. There’s a reason. Mismanagement.

Low attendance is ultimate the reason the park is not getting major investments. Theming is great and I’m glad to see the park going in that direction but Jungle X is not a big investment. The last big investment this borderline failure park received was 305 all those years ago.

So go ahead. Praise their mismanagement. You get a C Class park at best where it could be one of the best parks in the nation. The management has decided that it will be park for locals, not a vacation destination. With small new attractions. Where they can close on a whim anytime attendance is low because the locals will still buy a season pass.

What a waste of a beautiful park.

I mean I have been bitten twice by park closers as Carowinds both times unannounced but they were not huge deals to me cause
i built in at least two days in my trip planning knowing that things could happen and went on my back up day, Yeah it sucks but that is life with outdoor stuff.

 

[Mushroom]

It’s just a shame such a nice park like KD that is getting nicer is so poorly run by mgmt that false advertises and closes for low attendance. What they are doing in Jungle X is great, but it’s low investment. They won’t invest much in this park now because of the low crowds and the low crowds are a direct result of their management

You might want to double check the definition of false advertising. It’s written in plain English on the park’s website, calendar, tickets, and season passes that the operating schedule is subject to change depending on weather. It’s fair enough if you still dislike this policy, but to call it false advertising is just straight up inaccurate.

In a lot of ways, I’d argue the park’s behavior is actually more ethical and guest-friendly than continuing to operate through terrible weather conditions. Let’s take Tumbili’s opening day for example. The temperature was in the low 30s, it was precipitating a mix of sleet, snow, and rain, there was a nasty wind, and pretty much all of the major attractions — Tumbili included — were closed because of the weather. You would really prefer that the park had stayed open, leaving whatever handful of guests remained to put up with those disgusting conditions while all the rides were closed? Instead, by closing early and honoring those tickets later in the season, the park actually helped ensure the guests there that day got to salvage their visit and have a more enjoyable visit later. To me, that seems way more preferable than forcing guests who paid to wander the park in the freezing rain and look at closed coasters.

 

[super7]

You might want to double check the definition of false advertising. It’s written in plain English on the park’s website, calendar, tickets, and season passes that the operating schedule is subject to change depending on weather. It’s fair enough if you still dislike this policy, but to call it false advertising is just straight up inaccurate.

In a lot of ways, I’d argue the park’s behavior is actually more ethical and guest-friendly than continuing to operate through terrible weather conditions. Let’s take Tumbili’s opening day for example. The temperature was in the low 30s, it was precipitating a mix of sleet, snow, and rain, there was a nasty wind, and pretty much all of the major attractions — Tumbili included — were closed because of the weather. You would really prefer that the park had stayed open, leaving whatever handful of guests remained to put up with those disgusting conditions while all the rides were closed? Instead, by closing early and honoring those tickets later in the season, the park actually helped ensure the guests there that day got to salvage their visit and have a more enjoyable visit later. To me, that seems way more preferable than forcing guests who paid to wander the park in the freezing rain and look at closed coasters.

If people traveled to the park knowing the weather forecast, I am sure that they weren’t suffering through the weather conditions. The park just wasted their time and travel money by closing early.

Big deal. They have a disclaimer that they can change their hours in a whim. It’s still false advertising when advertised operating hours are not fulfilled

It just amazes me how people defend unethical practices o greedy businesses.

 

[mwhinva]

If people traveled to the park knowing the weather forecast, I am sure that they weren’t suffering through the weather conditions. The park just wasted their time and travel money by closing early.

Big deal. They have a disclaimer that they can change their hours in a whim. It’s still false advertising when advertised operating hours are not fulfilled

It just amazes me how people defend unethical practices o greedy businesses.

I don't understand why a percentage of folks cannot comprehend that the shorten'ed operating hours are due to the park not being able to hire enough employees. They are short staffed, hence having hours of operation that relate to the number employees working.

KD has saturated social media and other outlets with hiring notices. You went on a Friday which, at this time of the year, kids are still in school; both high school and college. The foreign work program does not get in gear until mid-late May.

I can understand being frustrated with shortened operating hours; but, the employment problem is a nationwide issue and it is not going away anytime soon. How in the world is KD a unethical and greedy business? How much extra money are they making when they could be open another 2-4 hours per day and the park's staffing does not allow them that option?

"Yeah, we'll show our park visitors how greedy we are when we close at 5 or 7 pm each day instead of 8-10 pm! We don't need that potential income during those missing operating hours to strengthen and grow the business. We don't want that money to put toward new and exciting attractions!"

What f@#king type of business plan is that?

There would be no Cedar Fair/KD if they operate as you say. Yes, prices are inflated in the park; but they are still a seasonal business that is greatly affected by weather. Even with an extended season till the end of the year, KD is not operating 3-4 months out of 12. So their yearly income comes out of 8-9 months of operations. It's the same when you go to a concert, Broadway show, or professional sporting event. Those activities are a one time or limited time event. Food and things like buying a t-shirt or hat have prices that are inflated. Nothing new here.

 

[Nicole]

I don’t think anyone is saying that KD isn’t affected by nationwide staffing shortages. If you go back and read the entire conversation here (https://parkfans.net/threads/early-park-closures.7266/post-268688), on the specific days that @super7 is complaining about the park had to close earlier than originally advertised because of weather events.

There is a difference between planning shorter hours, because you know you won’t have enough people to run all of the attractions for several shifts, and closing earlier than expected because of unpredictable, uncontrollable events (like tornadoes).

There has been extensive debate about the BGW approach of staffing fewer attractions and staying open longer and the KD solution of offering more things for a shorter period of time. Views differ on which is preferable. But that is a completely different issue than what is being discussed right now.

Also, this is off-topic and I am going to move it out of the Project 22 thread to the correct thread.

 

[super7]

Setting aside the additional string of unsupported accusations, KD is not in fact in a "prime location." As a resident of NOVA, I find the drive down I95 in the continuously abysmal traffic to be a huge deterrent. Moreover, BGW is only an hour away, and historically has been a bigger draw than KD (for complex reasons that deserve a much more fulsome debate than can be had here). Additionally, KD is not well-located to have the kind of local base that other parks enjoy.

I do, in fact, travel to parks 100s of miles from home. I always make sure to go when I have a relatively high confidence that the parks are likely to be open, and I generally have some flexibility bult into my schedule.

Once again, I can see how this is frustrating for you, but you are overgeneralizing your singular experience to the overall operations of the park.

It’s prime location. Look at the number of vehicles that pass there everyday. More than most any other theme park in the country I would guess. It’s the major east coast vacation travel corridor

Their mismanagement doesn’t make any of this traffic want to stop there. They just keep going to their ultimate destination.

 

[super7]

I don't understand why a percentage of folks cannot comprehend that the shorten'ed operating hours are due to the park not being able to hire enough employees. They are short staffed, hence having hours of operation that relate to the number employees working.

KD has saturated social media and other outlets with hiring notices. You went on a Friday which, at this time of the year, kids are still in school; both high school and college. The foreign work program does not get in gear until mid-late May.

I can understand being frustrated with shortened operating hours; but, the employment problem is a nationwide issue and it is not going away anytime soon. How in the world is KD a unethical and greedy business? How much extra money are they making when they could be open another 2-4 hours per day and the park's staffing does not allow them that option?

"Yeah, we'll show our park visitors how greedy we are when we close at 5 or 7 pm each day instead of 8-10 pm! We don't need that potential income during those missing operating hours to strengthen and grow the business. We don't want that money to put toward new and exciting attractions!"

What f@#king type of business plan is that?

There would be no Cedar Fair/KD if they operate as you say. Yes, prices are inflated in the park; but they are still a seasonal business that is greatly affected by weather. Even with an extended season till the end of the year, KD is not operating 3-4 months out of 12. So their yearly income comes out of 8-9 months of operations. It's the same when you go to a concert, Broadway show, or professional sporting event. Those activities are a one time or limited time event. Food and things like buying a t-shirt or hat have prices that are inflated. Nothing new here.

The park is a low attendance failure due to management. It’s a bad hoke they have decided to fall into.

Not able to find workers is a direct result of pay rates and benefits. Period

Not wanting or able to pay workers enough is a direct result of lie attendance.

Shorter operating days discourage attendance. Especially long distance visitors. And local season pass holders can basically pay $300 for a year of visits and meals. Not a profitable target market imo.

Their reputation for closing due to low crowds and blaming the weather has also chased away traveling guests.

It is what it is. A beautiful, highly mismanaged theme park with high potential that will never be met.

Go ahead. Defend management. And enjoy Tumbili and it’s whopping 16 ruder capacity. Those are the kinds of rides that low investment parks get. They didn’t even get the bigger Six Flags cheap version. That’s how low budget this park has become because of its horrendous attendance.

 

[panopticon31]

Go ahead. Defend management. And enjoy Tumbili and it’s whopping 16 ruder capacity. Those are the kinds of rides that low investment parks get. They didn’t even get the bigger Six Flags cheap version. That’s how low budget this park has become because of its horrendous attendance.

Are you seriously complaining about a roller coaster that is replacing a flat ride? Because that is what Tumbili is. It did not replace Volcano, it replaced the crypt.

 

[Nicole]

It’s prime location. Look at the number of vehicles that pass there everyday. More than most any other theme park in the country I would guess. It’s the major east coast vacation travel corridor

Their mismanagement doesn’t make any of this traffic want to stop there. They just keep going to their ultimate destination.

You think that people who are driving down I95 either on business or en route to some other vacation destination would normally stop at an amusement park on the way? How would that even work logistically, assuming a majority of those people even like amusement parks? It isn‘t a quick and cheap roadside stop.

My impression is that parks are either destinations, themselves, or located in an area that is already drawing tourists. Most people do not stop at a park that will take an entire day, when they are headed somewhere else entirely.

The park is a low attendance failure due to management. It’s a bad hoke they have decided to fall into.

Not able to find workers is a direct result of pay rates and benefits. Period

Not wanting or able to pay workers enough is a direct result of lie attendance.

Shorter operating days discourage attendance. Especially long distance visitors. And local season pass holders can basically pay $300 for a year of visits and meals. Not a profitable target market imo.

Their reputation for closing due to low crowds and blaming the weather has also chased away traveling guests.

It is what it is. A beautiful, highly mismanaged theme park with high potential that will never be met.

Go ahead. Defend management. And enjoy Tumbili and it’s whopping 16 ruder capacity. Those are the kinds of rides that low investment parks get. They didn’t even get the bigger Six Flags cheap version. That’s how low budget this park has become because of its horrendous attendance.

There is a nationwide staffing shortage and in Virginia KD is actually offering better pay than BGW. So, I’m not sure how you can condemn KD for not solving a problem that even plagues Disney. Perhaps as foreign workers are able to return, the entire industry will see better staffing. Additionally, KD is highly dependent on kids who are currently still in school.

Tumbili is a great replacement for a flat ride. And Jungle-X is proving to be a creative and detailed retheme. I’m not sure why you are spewing such contempt at people who appreciate both. Moreover, i305 and Twisted Timbers are still great coasters, and in many enthusiasts top 10s. Planet Snoopy is a fantastic children’s area, as well. Moreover, I Street is, in my opinion, an incredibly charming entry area. And the food across the park is improving dramatically.

I gather that you don’t like KD, which is fine. Honestly, I’ve been to CP and KI several times and not wild about either, so we all have different preferences. But your arguments seem more emotional than fact-based. Unless you can provide any data that demonstrates that out of area guests have been systematically chased away by operating constraints, or that the park is mismanaged, your repeated rants aren’t likely to persuade many people.

 

[Mushroom]

The park is a low attendance failure due to management. It’s a bad hoke they have decided to fall into.

Not able to find workers is a direct result of pay rates and benefits. Period

Not wanting or able to pay workers enough is a direct result of lie attendance.

Shorter operating days discourage attendance. Especially long distance visitors. And local season pass holders can basically pay $300 for a year of visits and meals. Not a profitable target market imo.

Their reputation for closing due to low crowds and blaming the weather has also chased away traveling guests.

It is what it is. A beautiful, highly mismanaged theme park with high potential that will never be met.

Go ahead. Defend management. And enjoy Tumbili and it’s whopping 16 ruder capacity. Those are the kinds of rides that low investment parks get. They didn’t even get the bigger Six Flags cheap version. That’s how low budget this park has become because of its horrendous attendance.

What data to you have to back up your claim that the park suffers from low attendance? Seems like your entire argument revolves around this claim for which you’ve presented no evidence.

 

[futureshock]

The park is a low attendance failure due to management. It’s a bad hoke they have decided to fall into.

Not able to find workers is a direct result of pay rates and benefits. Period

Not wanting or able to pay workers enough is a direct result of lie attendance.

Shorter operating days discourage attendance. Especially long distance visitors. And local season pass holders can basically pay $300 for a year of visits and meals. Not a profitable target market imo.

Their reputation for closing due to low crowds and blaming the weather has also chased away traveling guests.

It is what it is. A beautiful, highly mismanaged theme park with high potential that will never be met.

Go ahead. Defend management. And enjoy Tumbili and it’s whopping 16 ruder capacity. Those are the kinds of rides that low investment parks get. They didn’t even get the bigger Six Flags cheap version. That’s how low budget this park has become because of its horrendous attendance.

I don't have a problem with the weather related closures, because weather is a dynamic element that can rarely being predicted with any kind of acceptable reliability to make a decision about traveling somewhere for a multiple hour event.

However, I do have a problem with Kings Dominion not being open until 10PM a single day this Spring/Summer. I brought this up in another thread, but every operating day this Spring/Summer at Kings Island they are going to be open 10AM to 10PM. I know they are different markets, but they have relatively similar population densities (2.2 million for greater Cincy area versus 1.2 million for greater Richmond area) and if they are both suffering from the same nationwide hiring issues, then I have a hard time swallowing the explanation of a 11AM to 9PM best-case operating day at Kings Dominion versus 10AM to 10PM operating day at Kings Island just being "sorry, we can't hire enough people". Sprinkle in the 11AM to 5PM Fridays in the Spring as the short operating days at Kings Dominion and you have a diminishing return on a Kings Dominion season pass versus Kings Island season pass. The gold pass prices at each park are $99 for KD and $120 for KI; seems like that extra $21 at KI gets you a bunch more hours at the park versus KD.

I have no idea where the blame/truth lies for the disparity in operating hours, but the difference in operating hours between KD and KI is pretty staggering...

 

[Mushroom]

I don't have a problem with the weather related closures, because weather is a dynamic element that can rarely being predicted with any kind of acceptable reliability to make a decision about traveling somewhere for a multiple hour event.

However, I do have a problem with Kings Dominion not being open until 10PM a single day this Spring/Summer. I brought this up in another thread, but every operating day this Spring/Summer at Kings Island they are going to be open 10AM to 10PM. I know they are different markets, but they have relatively similar population densities (2.2 million for greater Cincy area versus 1.2 million for greater Richmond area) and if they are both suffering from the same nationwide hiring issues, then I have a hard time swallowing the explanation of a 11AM to 9PM best-case operating day at Kings Dominion versus 10AM to 10PM operating day at Kings Island just being "sorry, we can't hire enough people". Sprinkle in the 11AM to 5PM Fridays in the Spring as the short operating days at Kings Dominion and you have a diminishing return on a Kings Dominion season pass versus Kings Island season pass. The gold pass prices at each park are $99 for KD and $120 for KI; seems like that extra $21 at KI gets you a bunch more hours at the park versus KD.

I have no idea where the blame/truth lies for the disparity in operating hours, but the difference in operating hours between KD and KI is pretty staggering...

The difference between KD and KI when it comes to staffing is probably the same difference that exists between KD and BGW. Like BGW, KI is located in a well established and heavily populated area — near Cincinnati — whereas KD is located in the middle of nowhere in a rural, unincorporated part of Hanover County, Virginia. That means KD is unusually distant from a large population center to draw employees, especially high school and college age employees, from. Most employees have to drive 30 minutes up or down I95 to get to the park, if not more. Compared to other parks like KI or BGW that exist in a more populated community where more potential employees are more conveniently located nearby, KD faces an uphill battle by not only facing the labor shortage all parks are facing nationwide, but also having to scout out employees and then incentivize them to come all the way to work at the park.

 

[Jonesta6]

I don't have a problem with the weather related closures, because weather is a dynamic element that can rarely being predicted with any kind of acceptable reliability to make a decision about traveling somewhere for a multiple hour event.

However, I do have a problem with Kings Dominion not being open until 10PM a single day this Spring/Summer. I brought this up in another thread, but every operating day this Spring/Summer at Kings Island they are going to be open 10AM to 10PM. I know they are different markets, but they have relatively similar population densities (2.2 million for greater Cincy area versus 1.2 million for greater Richmond area) and if they are both suffering from the same nationwide hiring issues, then I have a hard time swallowing the explanation of a 11AM to 9PM best-case operating day at Kings Dominion versus 10AM to 10PM operating day at Kings Island just being "sorry, we can't hire enough people". Sprinkle in the 11AM to 5PM Fridays in the Spring as the short operating days at Kings Dominion and you have a diminishing return on a Kings Dominion season pass versus Kings Island season pass. The gold pass prices at each park are $99 for KD and $120 for KI; seems like that extra $21 at KI gets you a bunch more hours at the park versus KD.

I have no idea where the blame/truth lies for the disparity in operating hours, but the difference in operating hours between KD and KI is pretty staggering...

There's a simple difference between the KI and KD locations:

Kings Island is surrounded by communities, first from Mason, with Dayton just up the road and Cincinnati only a little further away - potential staff and guests are within a few minutes drive away.


Kings Dominion is surrounded by farmland, the closest population center is Ashland (roughly the distance from Dayton to KI), with the actual populations of Henrico/Richmond another 10-20 minutes down I-95 from there.

So even with decent pay, hours, and benefits, it's still a hard sell to get the proper staff needed for longer hours, especially when staff serving front-end retail or food/beverage operations could have a similar job much closer to home year-round instead of seasonally.

So yeah, it sucks the park won't stay open longer into the evening - but after a point there's only so many things management would be able to do. The only other thing I could think they'd do is shift their opening hours later, but I'd imagine there may be some heavy repercussions to the back-of-house operations and/or revenue generation from families, otherwise they would have done it already.

 

[Nicole]

There is another fallacy built into @futureshock’s comparison. While KD has competition about an hour away (ie, BGW), the closest significant parks to KI are two hours away (Kentucky Kingdom, which has Louisville) and more than three hours away (CP, which is also part of the same company and draws from Cleveland).

So, unlike KI, KD is competing directly with another park for guests and employees.

 

[Unagi]

While KD has competition about an hour away (ie, BGW), the closest significant parks to KI are two hours away (Kentucky Kingdom, which has Louisville) and more than three hours away...

So, unlike KI, KD is competing directly with another park for guests and employees.

I'd like to also add that KI can draw just as many (if not more) people from Indianapolis as they do Cincy. Both metro areas are about the same size in population. The park even draws a lot from the Louisville area. Other regional parks in that area (Kentucky Kingdom, Holiday World, Indiana Beach) are not big enough to compete with and draw visitors like KI does. This is a huge advantage that KI has over KD, which is why you'll see them have longer operating hours.