I'm pretty sure Kumba at BGT is the B&M version of what Drachen Fire was meant to be...
Drachen Fire
- Thread starter Zachary
- Start date
Totally agree - Kumba is such a great ride. If only BGW would/could have waited in B&M's queue for another year to get an electric blue, silver, and bright red B&M Drachen Fire... I have little doubt the ride would still be standing, operating, and popular.
What you mean to say is that if they had waited for B&M, DF might not have been a concussion-inducing nightmare from the pits of hell that wasn't destroyed soon enough.
I, for one, miss it. I thought it had phenomenal pacing (at least until they removed that corkscrew), a wonderfully unique layout, and never once in my hundreds of rides did I get concussed. To each their own, I suppose.
Steel Phantom was exactly that. Amazing ride and I adored it, but good god -- the turnaround at the base of that second drop was traumatic. I can't find it now, but reverse POV video of riders' heads getting whipped around at the bottom of that hill is downright cautionary.Nicole said:
Not to damn by faint praise - but after SP and even Anaconda, Drachen Fire was an easy if lackluster re-ride for me.
I do wonder what my take on DF would be these days. Probably less forgiving.
My experience on DF was more disapointment then pain. I knew plenty of people, almost everyone in fact who rode with me who felt like they need medical attention. I never did. My have just been that I was built just so, I have no idea, but it is what it is. That having been said, the ride could have had an epic drop, but no they chose to place a turn in the middle destroying the down force. I just never felt it lived up to its potential.
Here is another thing, I know people say that it is the layout that B&M designed, but I have never seen any proof of that, just 3rd and 4th hand statements. One day I would like to actually get a first hand account. How much of the design did B&M do? If for no other reason Arrow would have had to make changes due to its track and train design. So I am curious what those are. Perhaps all B&M had was a concept drawing, in that case who knows how much.
The point is, just making statements about how great we know the B&M version would have been seems... disingenuous at best and fanboyish at worst. Personally, I think DF was Ron's worst mistake, and if it is just his take on a B&M design, that is makes it that much worse.
Here is another thing, I know people say that it is the layout that B&M designed, but I have never seen any proof of that, just 3rd and 4th hand statements. One day I would like to actually get a first hand account. How much of the design did B&M do? If for no other reason Arrow would have had to make changes due to its track and train design. So I am curious what those are. Perhaps all B&M had was a concept drawing, in that case who knows how much.
The point is, just making statements about how great we know the B&M version would have been seems... disingenuous at best and fanboyish at worst. Personally, I think DF was Ron's worst mistake, and if it is just his take on a B&M design, that is makes it that much worse.
To be fair to DF, Mantis was actually worse. In fact, I believe Mantis was the illegitimate lovechild of DF and Shockwave.
There are some folks who know the early details of the Drachen Fire story. But they aren't telling. Maybe someday.
In my opinion, if you look at the pacing and ordering of elements on DF and compare them to Kumba, then look at the never-before-and-never-since sea change in Arrow's support design specifically for DF, then note that A-B specifically went to B&M first before turning to Arrow... the similarities and opportunities there are too numerous to plausibly dismiss as likely coincidence. I'll follow the coincidence theory to the point of "it's certainly possible," but not all the way to "it's likely."
Other observers may see it the other way around. But to me, given the previous 15 years of Arrow design evolution, that extraordinary jump in a notably B&M-ish direction is probably better explained by the exchange of a small amount of information than by complete chance.
It would not surprise me in the least if Arrow was handed an early layout drawing of Kumba sometime in 1990 and told, "Here's what we bought for the Tampa park. We're excited about this." That's really all it would have taken; Arrow often brought detailed park guidance and desires right into the cores of their big projects (e.g. Magnum, Steel Phantom).
In my opinion, if you look at the pacing and ordering of elements on DF and compare them to Kumba, then look at the never-before-and-never-since sea change in Arrow's support design specifically for DF, then note that A-B specifically went to B&M first before turning to Arrow... the similarities and opportunities there are too numerous to plausibly dismiss as likely coincidence. I'll follow the coincidence theory to the point of "it's certainly possible," but not all the way to "it's likely."
Other observers may see it the other way around. But to me, given the previous 15 years of Arrow design evolution, that extraordinary jump in a notably B&M-ish direction is probably better explained by the exchange of a small amount of information than by complete chance.
It would not surprise me in the least if Arrow was handed an early layout drawing of Kumba sometime in 1990 and told, "Here's what we bought for the Tampa park. We're excited about this." That's really all it would have taken; Arrow often brought detailed park guidance and desires right into the cores of their big projects (e.g. Magnum, Steel Phantom).
Listen, I am not saying the park did not give them at least basic guidance. My only take is that we should not take hearsay at face value. These are bold claims and almost say that Arrow Dynamics the very same firm that created Nessie was not capable of original or creative thought.
If you look at Cheetah Hunt, it almost seems like Busch Gardens Tampa asked Intamin to design it like a B&M. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. The ride structure also has weird supports for an Intamin and uncharacteristic drawn out sweeping motions. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the park wanted a B&M while they were building that ride too, but they weren't making launch coasters quite yet.
Drachen Fire and Cheetah Hunt both could have been desperate gambles with giving another company a chance when B&M couldn't help. If that is the case, I'm sure most of us can agree that the CH won.
Drachen Fire and Cheetah Hunt both could have been desperate gambles with giving another company a chance when B&M couldn't help. If that is the case, I'm sure most of us can agree that the CH won.
It seems we all agree regarding hearsay. It is not especially "bold" to note the striking similarities, the history, and hypothesize about a connection.Zimmy said:
As I noted earlier, different people may have opposite takes... it's all good.
Here ya go -- a Drachen Fire blue print.
If you're looking for technical drawings, I'm afraid the folks who have them have little to no intention of providing them to the public.
Though I do think a nicely framed elevation drawing of Nessie's interlocking loops would complement almost any room.
I once had a full set of elevation drawings for the Stratosphere Tower, acquired from a company that was working on that 90s-era construction project and was just about to toss them in the trash. No idea where that set went, but it was pretty tremendous.
If you're looking for technical drawings, I'm afraid the folks who have them have little to no intention of providing them to the public.
Though I do think a nicely framed elevation drawing of Nessie's interlocking loops would complement almost any room.
I once had a full set of elevation drawings for the Stratosphere Tower, acquired from a company that was working on that 90s-era construction project and was just about to toss them in the trash. No idea where that set went, but it was pretty tremendous.
S&S Sansei or HUSS I would imagine. S&S Sansei is the spiritual successor to Arrow, they bought Arrow out of bankruptcy after the X coaster at Magic Mountain failed, but Arrow was temporarily a subsidiary of HUSS in the late 80s early 90s and even after Arrow split off from HUSS they had the plans for the Big Bad Wolf and continued to make parts for BGW up until it's removal.
I wouldn't be surprised it HUSS still has the plans. S&S could... but I am a little bit more doubtful, as the only Arrow product they continued to market after they took over the company was the 4D X Coaster. Otherwise there is no really good way of knowing who has them. I am sure the park has copies of all of the coasters they've had, but they'd never release them. HUSS on the other hand might, but I really don't know.
I wouldn't be surprised it HUSS still has the plans. S&S could... but I am a little bit more doubtful, as the only Arrow product they continued to market after they took over the company was the 4D X Coaster. Otherwise there is no really good way of knowing who has them. I am sure the park has copies of all of the coasters they've had, but they'd never release them. HUSS on the other hand might, but I really don't know.
astromattical said:
I did a little more digging and apparently HUSS split from Arrow at some-point in 1986. S&S-Sansei owns everything Arrow related from 1986/87-2002, so they may actually have what you are looking for.