Christmas Town 2019

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BGWnut said:
Maybe I'm in the minority but I was not a fan of the light displays at KD and Carowinds. I found them to be vastly inferior to BGW.
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I definitely disagree here. BGW has some incredible displays that can't be touched, like Polar Pathway and the tree in San Marco, but I would argue that in many cases KD's lights are more elaborate and creative than BGW. Not only do I feel there are more decorations overall, but one thing that stands out to me is how much more KD uses trees to their advantage in their displays; in areas like International Street, the lights are so interwoven with the trees that you get the feeling you're completely surrounded in the lights. Other trees throughout the park are consistently wrapped in colors to match the area, creating a level of immersion that I feel BGW lacks. Likewise, areas like Candy Apple Grove where every single tree is covered with lights where literally every single light individually changes in sync to the music are something BGW just can't compete with. CT's displays feel much simpler by comparison.

Christmas Town is still a beautiful event, and though I haven't visited this year, in my mind it's still a great one - maybe due to a mix of nostalgia and the fact that BGW's charming European framework will always be conducive to that classic Christmas feeling. But I do feel that KD has raised the stakes for holiday events in the region, and that what was groundbreaking at CT a decade ago doesn't have that same "wow" factor anymore.
 
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Joe said:
Likewise, areas like Candy Apple Grove where every single tree is covered with lights where literally every single light individually changes in sync to the music are something BGW just can't compete with. CT's displays feel much simpler by comparison.
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Oddly enough BGW uses the same type of lights on the train on those walls but it looks like they gave up on any programming and just unboxed them and plugged them in.

I feel like BGW likes to dump a ton of lights in one place and claim victory with its light count where as WF they use careful placement to get the most light value per number of bulbs. Af sor the showtimes, I mentioned this during the HOS season that they need to have more evening showings, having shows early in the day then the last showing at 8pm on a 10pm closing makes no sense. I think they do it to tryand force you to visit a second day to see them all.
 
belsaas said:
For large power consumers, Dominion charges based on peak wattage rather than just charging kW/h. It could be actually be cheaper for BGW to just do this instead.

What would really be cheaper is just building their own power plant on the Rhine. Preferably nuclear.
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Prerferably a Molton Salt Reactor. Then they could get their fissionables from Surry. Win/ WIn!
 
One thing I would say about CT, and the downturn it's taken:
I think a big part of the issue I see is that BGW had little competition in the mid-atlantic area for such a long time that while things like this happened, it's not like there was an easy alternative to go to. But now we got Carowinds event, we got Winterfest. So BGW has been operating on a level of complacency that the financial struggles made events like this "bonus" with little investment, to now needing to be a big investment.

Now I think a very difficult from financials part is the fact that things like giving us new coasters can 'easily' be done via loans. But investing in something like changing out the decorations/lighting theme elements would require either a small scale loan or liquid assets to just pay for it. Given as though it seems that this is an area that SEAS is struggling some, I think it's an explanation along with the above as to why CT is struggling.
 
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Heres the thing that I feel. They are doing so many ticket discounts, promotions, free members tickets and what have you that they arent making the money they could. And just getting people through the gate I dont feel is making them a huge profit in food and drink. Many people I would bet eat before arriving late afternoon, then they may get a hot chocolate or something but its not like the hot summer where they are arriving early in the day and having to buy bottled drinks throughout the day. Then add in those on dining plans like myself, we go to the park around dinner time, have dinner then are basically full the rest of the night not needing or wanting a snack before we have seen what we want to see and heading out of the park. Another part of CT is that they arent doing anything spectacular. Many home decorators are producing shows and displays that rival the wow factor that BGW is doing. Putting a home display with thousands of pixel lights, producing moving images set to music with animated characters is becoming a common sight in neighborhoods now. Busch is basically putting plain lights on trees and that dosent cut it nowdays unless you mix in thos wow moments here and there. WF does it with the massive Effiel Tower tree and in Candy Apple Grove. I hate to keep comparing BGW and CT but BGW has animals year round but yet KD beats them out with a live Natavity. BGW at one time had some various acts around the park such as the carolers by Roman Rapids that dressed like the old Salvation Army people. They also hade various preformers in New France....those are all gone now. Those were huge additions that really gave you the warm holiday feeling. KD has literally preformers every time you turn around. The only preformers outside of the shows that I know of now are the carolers at Big Ben and honestly thats a bad place for them, they clog traffic and if you do try to stop to watch you will get run over. Now that I see what the Tree Trail is (which personally I think sucks) I think with some tweaking could be great. Line the outer area of that parking lot with trees with a few clusters scattered throughout. Have the kids activities along the outer areas and put seating, fire pits and heaters in the center...alot of them. Have a snack stand selling wassail, hot chocolate and specialty drinks inside the "maze". Make it a place for parents to sit, relax and hang out with friends while the kids can go do all the booths. BGW has to do something to get back in the game, right now they arent the place to go its just another place to go.
 
The last 2/3 of that post I have no problem with.

The thinking they aren't making money because of ticket discounts, promotions, free members tickets....I whole heartedly disagree. If they took away the free tickets for members I would call up and bitch them out. I also disagree that getting them through the door isn't making them a big profit in food and drink, more people in always means more money. For BGW you want as many as peak occupancy operating days as possible. Better off having 50 people paying $40 each than 25 paying $80 each. That's double the chances of F&B sales, march sales, up selling with the same gate profit. Just because you go a lot and get a meal every single time doesn't mean that's what everyone is doing. I honestly don't know many people with the all season dining plan. I know quite a few with the drink plans. But there's a reason the prices of things are where they are.

Take the last time I was a Trappers and what I got was $18 (IIRC), my 15% discount got it to $15.30. I would be willing to bet the actual cost, labor and all, to BGW for that plate was about $5.45. So that's almost $10 in profit off of me. $13 off the regular customer. So in one meal off a discount it already offsets the loss of 2 dining plan meals. There are many many more people paying for meals than getting dining plans. Last CT I was at with my family, it took us a good 10 minutes for a spot at Festhaus because of people eating. I would be willing to say they are doing fine on that.

The biggest issue I would say (as I did before); SEAS financial situation makes it difficult to have the liquid assets to really improve CT and HOS. It's unfortunate that it's hurt CT's displays to not upgrade boxes, programming, light packages. I wish they would consider making some of it in less visible areas (like the banks of the Rhine) more permanent in installation. I wish they would bring back the various street performers (issue here is most don't want that long of a commitment and BGW likely doesn't pay enough).
 
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My point is...they are spending a good chunk for install and teardown of a event. They may be giving discounts on tickets and getting some in the door and they may still be doing ok on food and beverage but when its all said and done that food and beverage has to cover the event. Just saying out of everyone I work with or are friends or family almost everyome that goes uses passes/memberships, knows someone who works there to get tickets or uses friends and family free tickets. I know there are paying guests....but not as any as summer...at least thats how it appears to me,.
 
We dont...but my point is back when everyone was paying to get in there were additions. The past couple years....squat.
 
I don't think you can infer causal links, when you have no data. We have no information about how many people pay for admission, or how much the park makes on the event. Furthermore, as I said before, the budget is probably not self-contained. The park very likely spreads money from attraction to attraction, based on a comprehensive budget, which encompasses everything.

If I had to guess, the lack of a new major addition is probably because of the two new coasters.
 
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Speaking of new coasters, the most exciting thing at CT 2019 is the tree the construction company out up on Pantheon.
 
Nicole said:
I don't think you can infer causal links, when you have no data. We have no information about how many people pay for admission, or how much the park makes on the event. Furthermore, as I said before, the budget is probably not self-contained.
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This. It’s not like the folks at BGW are just taking shots in the dark with their pricing structures and promotions and hoping it works. I guarantee these structures were carefully analyzed and that the park’s business bigwigs have calculated exactly what the gains and losses will be.
 
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Joe said:
This. It’s not like the folks at BGW are just taking shots in the dark with their pricing structures and promotions and hoping it works. I guarantee these structures were carefully analyzed and that the park’s business bigwigs have calculated exactly what the gains and losses will be.
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Hope they didnt use the same calculations that they did when people upgraded to memberships and they cut huge checks!
 
So... Based on H John Hildebrandt's book about how Cedar Point and Cedar Fair basically made educated guesses from the marketing department (no hard data source) on ticket pricing and discount strategies, and seeing the failures of EuroDisney and California Adventure's estimations for attendance upon opening (which thus proves debt is expensive if you don't hit your goals to pay it back), it's entirely possible SEAS is throwing darts at the wall hoping something works.

Especially since they somehow overspent a lot of money in the marketing department in the last fiscal year and couldn't say what it was for or what the results against expectations were.

But that being the case if it were true, if they are able to hit a few attendance and sales targets doesn't necessarily correlate to an upgraded event. If they started to see a large drop not duev to weather or circumstances beyond their control within the area (gas leak, power outage, etc) in traditionally high attendance weekends, and it becomes a trend, then they may do something assuming there's enough liquid funds available to do so.
 
Jonesta6 said:
So... Based on H John Hildebrandt's book about how Cedar Point and Cedar Fair basically made educated guesses from the marketing department (no hard data source) on ticket pricing and discount strategies, and seeing the failures of EuroDisney and California Adventure's estimations for attendance upon opening (which thus proves debt is expensive if you don't hit your goals to pay it back), it's entirely possible SEAS is throwing darts at the wall hoping something works.
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Hildebrandt also talks a lot about how the park scrutinized the results of their strategies and altered them as necessary at the end of each season. Since a lot of BGW’s pricing structures and promotions aren’t new this year, it seems like a fair assumption that the park has seen how they play out and determined that they’re profitable.
 
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Jonesta6 said:
So... Based on H John Hildebrandt's book about how Cedar Point and Cedar Fair basically made educated guesses from the marketing department (no hard data source) on ticket pricing and discount strategies, and seeing the failures of EuroDisney and California Adventure's estimations for attendance upon opening (which thus proves debt is expensive if you don't hit your goals to pay it back), it's entirely possible SEAS is throwing darts at the wall hoping something works.

Especially since they somehow overspent a lot of money in the marketing department in the last fiscal year and couldn't say what it was for or what the results against expectations were.

But that being the case if it were true, if they are able to hit a few attendance and sales targets doesn't necessarily correlate to an upgraded event. If they started to see a large drop not duev to weather or circumstances beyond their control within the area (gas leak, power outage, etc) in traditionally high attendance weekends, and it becomes a trend, then they may do something assuming there's enough liquid funds available to do so.
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In the early days they brought in huge attendance every night they were open, unless weather was really bad. Now I feel like they are open way more days but most of those days crowd levels are low. They do still hit super busy Saturdays though.
 
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