Busch Brawls
- Thread starter Murphy
- Start date
In my opinion, saying "poor people = minorities" is a dangerous way to build an argument. And by this logic, BGW is pretty expensive already, so does that mean the park is already inherently racist?
I'm actually theorizing that people who pay more aren't just more invested in having a good time—I'm theorizing that they will actually have a better time. Isn't that exactly what the expensive wine study linked before told us? The experiences were equal, but the prices changed—it wasn't just that the expectations changed, people's actual, phycological experiences changed as well.
You see, this is a criticism I totally get. Even if my theory is correct, maybe the collateral is too great. Makes sense.
To open Pandora's Box #2, lower guest density leads to fewer interactions per guest which leads to fewer possible violent conflicts per guest, no? Couldn't the first sentence be true spesifically because of the second? I don't have much built around this idea yet—just some random food for thought.
Racial wealth gap may be a key to other inequities — Harvard Gazette
The wealth gap between Black and white Americans is examined in this installment of the “Unequal” series.
news.harvard.edu
I think this thread is coming to blows.
…Which I guess is on topic, so carry on.
…Which I guess is on topic, so carry on.
Racial wealth gap may be a key to other inequities — Harvard Gazette
The wealth gap between Black and white Americans is examined in this installment of the “Unequal” series.
I definitely don't think @Mushroom was rejecting that the racial wealth gap is real. I think he's saying that any wealth-based restriction put on a good or service (read: any fixed price) will disproportionately harm the less wealthy. I think his point is that that fact alone can't be justification for calling a policy racist—otherwise fixed prices in general would, by extension, always be racist.
When I first read your post I honestly read your argument as "luxury goods = racism" which seemed like a pretty big stretch to me.
A policy that raises prices for the purposes of security is implicitly racist. It is what it is. Intentional or not. And even if it only “disproportionately affects the less wealthy” it is still a discriminatory, still wrong.
companies of course have a right to make a profit and set their prices. That’s not racist or discriminatory necessarily. But raising the prices with the (erroneous) belief that it will help keep the unworthy out is discriminatory.
The notification and justification for price increases have determine whether they are discriminatory or not.
companies of course have a right to make a profit and set their prices. That’s not racist or discriminatory necessarily. But raising the prices with the (erroneous) belief that it will help keep the unworthy out is discriminatory.
The notification and justification for price increases have determine whether they are discriminatory or not.
Honestly I’m enjoying the range of transparent racism to confusion over stereotyping minorities as poor or more likely to get into fights as either being racist as well intentioned social justicing.
remember when that one family got in trouble for fighting at disney? Crazy how big a deal was made of that vs the weekly fights at the other parks
remember when that one family got in trouble for fighting at disney? Crazy how big a deal was made of that vs the weekly fights at the other parks
Maybe they should adopt the Gladiator challenge match ring thing and throw it over in Festa or San Marco - anytime security pegs a guest for fighting they become a challenger. They win, they get to stay (will be obviously worn down and not able to continue brawling); they lose and it's an immediate removal from the park for them, anyone who came with them, and everyone gets banned for life regardless if they were fighting or not.
Other guests get extra entertainment from the park's live performance division, fighters get an ordained outlet to fight, and their crew has more of a reason to restrain the fighters since they could lose their access to the park over likely a stupid choice of words someone made.
Other guests get extra entertainment from the park's live performance division, fighters get an ordained outlet to fight, and their crew has more of a reason to restrain the fighters since they could lose their access to the park over likely a stupid choice of words someone made.
I think the issue has become this:
Over the last, however many years, because violence has been stroked as opposed to condemned, then when it is condemned the punishment is akin to a slap on the wrist as opposed to an actual punishment; this makes many more people see violence as a means to an end. Like if you got in a fight in BGW right now, we don't know what the outcome is. We don't know what's happening if someone is caught in BGW doing hard drugs. I think BGW should try something novel here: be transparent with that. Honestly I would applaud if I ever saw the following from BGW:
Honestly, I think doing things like that, being open about what happens to these individuals; instead of trying to act like it didn't happen and do a double secret probation, would put an and to so much of this.
Personally, I don't think that just raising prices will solve the issue. NFL games can cost anywhere between $200-1000 per ticket and it still happens there. NBA games can be $50-2500 per ticket and it still happens there. Violence as a resolution to a debate is the default mode for much of America right now because we've been conditioned that it's ok to do, places rather sweep it under the rug rather than confront it and face it head on. We've been conditioned it because the end result is a booking, a fine, and maybe a weekend in a holding cell. Time to start throwing the book at some of this. Especially a place with kids like BGW. Press charges, ask for the fullest extent, publicize that you did it. Make examples of these people.
EDIT:
This is not to say I disagree with @Zachary 's take that prices should go up. For single day park goers or basic membership level people, I find the Fun Cards to be one of the most disrespectful slap in the faces piece of shits there is. They honestly need to do away with it, get membership down to 3-4 tiers, and only have a military/first responder discount (outside your senior and junior tickets). Low prices plus the lack of visible action is what is causing the problems.
The reason the low prices is the problem is it lowers the barrier of entry. While acts of violence like seen in the park is not premeditated, it's often not something that's a gut reaction. In my experience when you lower the price, what you are doing is making it more worth the time of someone that is going to do something like this to show up. Additionally people who often look for these discounts either feel entitled to do something they shouldn't, or feel like because it's a rare chance they have to do everything and do it now.
Full on BGW's strategy should be a three pronged attack to reduce fighting (I wish I could come up with better word suggestion). I shall call this operation Trident (Brooklyn 99 joke there):
PRONG 1 - Increase ticket prices by discontinuing discounts outside of age and military/first responder related discounts. Do away with fun cards which can increase the likelihood someone can come multiple times for less than the cost of a single day ticket. (Honestly I think this would play into the issue more because of the feeling of entitlement).
PRONG 2 - I would be more outwardly transparent of the consequences of fighting in the park as I outlined above.
PRONG 3 - Beef up security at the gate. If drugs are getting in then ask JCCPD to show up with a drug sniffing dog. If bags are that big of an issue, then improve the scanning ability by either requiring all large objects to be taken out or get a bag scanner. If you think that will bottle neck things too much, then open the side by Ireland gate and allow people without bags to enter there (BTW this goes to my "BGW's entrance is too small" soapbox, and FoF and the entrance should swap places).
Over the last, however many years, because violence has been stroked as opposed to condemned, then when it is condemned the punishment is akin to a slap on the wrist as opposed to an actual punishment; this makes many more people see violence as a means to an end. Like if you got in a fight in BGW right now, we don't know what the outcome is. We don't know what's happening if someone is caught in BGW doing hard drugs. I think BGW should try something novel here: be transparent with that. Honestly I would applaud if I ever saw the following from BGW:
Honestly, I think doing things like that, being open about what happens to these individuals; instead of trying to act like it didn't happen and do a double secret probation, would put an and to so much of this.
Personally, I don't think that just raising prices will solve the issue. NFL games can cost anywhere between $200-1000 per ticket and it still happens there. NBA games can be $50-2500 per ticket and it still happens there. Violence as a resolution to a debate is the default mode for much of America right now because we've been conditioned that it's ok to do, places rather sweep it under the rug rather than confront it and face it head on. We've been conditioned it because the end result is a booking, a fine, and maybe a weekend in a holding cell. Time to start throwing the book at some of this. Especially a place with kids like BGW. Press charges, ask for the fullest extent, publicize that you did it. Make examples of these people.
EDIT:
This is not to say I disagree with @Zachary 's take that prices should go up. For single day park goers or basic membership level people, I find the Fun Cards to be one of the most disrespectful slap in the faces piece of shits there is. They honestly need to do away with it, get membership down to 3-4 tiers, and only have a military/first responder discount (outside your senior and junior tickets). Low prices plus the lack of visible action is what is causing the problems.
The reason the low prices is the problem is it lowers the barrier of entry. While acts of violence like seen in the park is not premeditated, it's often not something that's a gut reaction. In my experience when you lower the price, what you are doing is making it more worth the time of someone that is going to do something like this to show up. Additionally people who often look for these discounts either feel entitled to do something they shouldn't, or feel like because it's a rare chance they have to do everything and do it now.
Full on BGW's strategy should be a three pronged attack to reduce fighting (I wish I could come up with better word suggestion). I shall call this operation Trident (Brooklyn 99 joke there):
PRONG 1 - Increase ticket prices by discontinuing discounts outside of age and military/first responder related discounts. Do away with fun cards which can increase the likelihood someone can come multiple times for less than the cost of a single day ticket. (Honestly I think this would play into the issue more because of the feeling of entitlement).
PRONG 2 - I would be more outwardly transparent of the consequences of fighting in the park as I outlined above.
PRONG 3 - Beef up security at the gate. If drugs are getting in then ask JCCPD to show up with a drug sniffing dog. If bags are that big of an issue, then improve the scanning ability by either requiring all large objects to be taken out or get a bag scanner. If you think that will bottle neck things too much, then open the side by Ireland gate and allow people without bags to enter there (BTW this goes to my "BGW's entrance is too small" soapbox, and FoF and the entrance should swap places).
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Part of the reason the Disney thing was a big deal was it just doesn't happen there. There are many reasons for that but it was news because it was a rarity.
So because people don't think they're getting ripped off, it therefore isn't happening? Even if it has the effective outcome you desire, anyone who openly embraces this line of logic is basically justifying price hikes literally for the sake of price hikes. "No, it's good when company's rip us off - it raises our self esteem." If a company does nothing to increase value for the consumer except raise the price to make the experience more classy (for lack of a better term), and we're ok with this... The mental pretzel-bending needed to justify this is just something I'm not capable of. And yeah, that's basically commodity fetishism: you think the thing does more than what it actually does because of product placement, branding, and the 'worth' of the other consumers who use the thing as well.
Besides, look at how this board and pass members all over social media flipped their shit over raising prices in the past. You think this shit will fly?
This might be the only part of the theory I'm sort of ok with, but it's actually not addressing any actual issues - it's just (potential) risk mitigation. Which is, again, ok - maybe. However, and let's be fucking real, let's say this is the desired outcome and the park implements a plan of higher ticket costs with THE END GOAL of having fewer people in the park. At no point after are suits in a board room going to just sit there, looking at a lower capacity and higher ticket price, and not think to themselves, how the fuck do I get more people in this park paying these exorbitant prices?
Oh? Your PFN Advisor just effectively called me racist for....
(checks notes)
Calling out racist dog whistles earlier in this thread.
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TBH all they care about it profit. If you told them you would pay a 25% premium over what they make in total ticket sales on a given day to have the park to yourself they would likely say yes.
In their mind if could looks something like this:
Sell 1 $90 ticket for a $20 profit....not bad.
Sell 5 $75 tickets for $5 profit each, that's $25 total profit.
I think what they did at points is go too low on the second one of trying to lower the price too much figuring total tickets would make up for the lower profit point too much, and it's part of the issue. And I get what you are arguing too @UncleDuncan but the truth is you and @Zachary are both right. Park policies and the prices are the issues. This isn't going to be a light switch solution of do x and y will happen. It's more like do A, B, C, and X, Y, Z and over time Q will happen.
Seems to have worked for Apple for many years.
In all seriousness, much like a lot of the arguments on this forum there is a lot of whining disguised behind "sophisticated" wording, for lack of a better term. Drop all the race bullshit. Doesn't matter who brought it up where, just stop talking about it, it isn't productive conversation.
Reducing the issue down to just price is of course inaccurate, but I don't think anyone is doing that here. I look at the parks that have the most issues with consistent fighting and it is a consequence of their geographical location and the kinds of people who live there. Now Williamsburg isn't a bad area by all means, but it is possible as younger people move into the town to take the place of the generation-now-passing that there could be a cultural shift. Again, not blaming anyone or thing specifically so nobody better twist my words to mean something it doesn't like has been happening, just another idea. I do think however that it is insane to suggest that removing the ability to get into the park for ridiculously cheap (a la all of next year for the price of this fun card, the crazy limited time deals offering like $40 tickets) wouldn't at least help the issue.
This just seems like a strange back and forth to me. It isn't a wild conclusion that "perceived value" applies to an experience. Do you not value a trip to Disney world more than a trip to Kings Dominion? And yes that personal value is found more in what the experience actually is, not the price of the experience, but the price of the experience should be fitting to what you are experiencing. BGW should not be an experience we want to be cheap, we are seeing the ramifications of it. And I don't mean the fights and all, I mean the rapidly deteriorating dedication to many aspects of what made the park unique. By shifting their philosophy to rides first and finding ways to add good deals to park admission, SEAS is very clearly telling us their target audience; people who want a good deal. I am not saying that people who want a good deal are all bad since I love a good deal too, but the kind of rougher crowd who engages in this behavior generally goes for these deals. It's the whole a rectangle isn't a square, but a square is a rectangle concept.
I am not advocating for a "price increase to keep the poor out" or any of the other ways this stance has been wildly misconstrued. I just think it is a compounding of issues. Cheaper to get into the park, reduced focus on quality in the park, less of a focus on customer experience, and the overall nationwide culture we are seeing with increased aggression. Summing this up to any one of those is no good, but I struggle to see how anyone could definitively say one of those doesn't play into it.
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I'll throw in my 2 cents:
I think the price of admission is less of an issue. What I see is that the park experience overall is quite a bit worse than it used to, especially on Saturdays when the park is packed.
There are still rides that are shut down that usually would be working, other popular rides not running at full capacity, restaurants shut down or also running not at full capacity, ...
When people stand in line for 40 minutes just to ride Loch Ness and have to wait 30 minutes to get a refill on their cup that is supposed to be good for a refill every 15 minutes, who can really be surprised if guests start to get pissy?
Throw in 80+ degree weather, no water rides and some alcohol and get ready to rumble.
I think the price of admission is less of an issue. What I see is that the park experience overall is quite a bit worse than it used to, especially on Saturdays when the park is packed.
There are still rides that are shut down that usually would be working, other popular rides not running at full capacity, restaurants shut down or also running not at full capacity, ...
When people stand in line for 40 minutes just to ride Loch Ness and have to wait 30 minutes to get a refill on their cup that is supposed to be good for a refill every 15 minutes, who can really be surprised if guests start to get pissy?
Throw in 80+ degree weather, no water rides and some alcohol and get ready to rumble.
I agree it's a much bigger issue.
However:
Looks like you two have a lot to talk about. I look forward to your exchanges.
And yeah, I obviously am not advocating for the park to not do anything. However, I just think the reductive mantra of just raising prices is a very myopic way of dealing with the situation that will yield the result of unintended(?) consequences. One of which will be pricing out the poor; the other being an internal push to eventually keep prices high and have a return to regular capacity.
Ok, I'll dance. Why are fights breaking out in Disney then, as well? It's a premium experience. Don't these people understand what value their pissing away by getting into fights? Yet here we are where people are paying more for theoretically a more premium experience and yet they still act or react in similar ways.
I'm suggesting members of this board are conflating cost with value and I caution people to think about what that actually means.
This get's more into a philosophical debate.....but is there anything wrong with pricing something so there's an air of exclusivity?
I think if you go back and read posts you’ll realize you’ve missed the point. What we object to is the idea that higher prices will keep out the unworthy. That is a discriminatory thought.
Uh. Yes, it is because if takes the same amount of labor to create the same experience but Company A is charging more than Company B, not only are the labor forces getting ripped off, but now so is the consumer (congratulations, we've just discovered Tesla Motors). But I suppose that's a different philosophical debate for a different thread.