Rumor After the Boardwalk Renovation & Coaster

[GASM]

The difference is that there are 44 family boomerangs counting those under construction, as opposed to ONE wooden shuttle coaster (and one that was intended to be built and subsequently cancelled).

Point is, there’s zero reason to believe that two rides (one of which was never intended for the park) indicate a pattern for the next addition.

 

[northdetective]

I hear what you're saying, but I think believing that what's currently happening is not precedent for what's next is pretty absurd. If the yea-sayers are right and the "GP" doesn't even notice a difference between a shuttle and a full circuit and they gleefully wait in the lines and/or pay to skip them completely unaware the concept of throughput, why ever build full circuit again? Like genuinely why? If even the big Statement Piece coasters aren't circuits, why does anything need to be? If it's almost always more "efficient" in terms of space, materials, and construction time to build a shuttle, and nobody looks at it any differently or is less likely to ride it because it is one, I really struggle to see the incentive for full-circuit rides at parks whose customers are having to get used to "boomerang coasters" the way customers at the "lesser" parks in the chain have had to in the past. fwiw the original boomerang does draw commentary everywhere I see it. A future full of shuttles is not one I like but it is one I expect

 

[Mushroom]

I hear what you're saying, but I think believing that what's currently happening is not precedent for what's next is pretty absurd. If the yea-sayers are right and the "GP" doesn't even notice a difference between a shuttle and a full circuit and they gleefully wait in the lines and/or pay to skip them completely unaware the concept of throughput, why ever build full circuit again? Like genuinely why? If even the big Statement Piece coasters aren't circuits, why does anything need to be? If it's almost always more "efficient" in terms of space, materials, and construction time to build a shuttle, and nobody looks at it any differently or is less likely to ride it because it is one, I really struggle to see the incentive for full-circuit rides at parks whose customers are having to get used to "boomerang coasters" the way customers at the "lesser" parks in the chain have had to in the past. fwiw the original boomerang does draw commentary everywhere I see it. A future full of shuttles is not one I like but it is one I expect

I can’t tell if you’re being sincere here or not, but you’ve either misunderstood the prevailing argument in defense of shuttles, or you’ve constructed a one doozy of a strawman. I don’t think anyone has said that the GP “doesn’t even notice a difference between a shuttle and a full circuits” in the sense that they literally can’t distinguish between the two. I’ve understood the pro-shuttle sentiment here to mean that the GP doesn’t necessarily consider shuttles worse than full-circuits.

That’s a massive distinction, because if the GP does view shuttle coasters as a distinct type of coaster — just not inherently better or worse than any other type of coaster — then the obvious answer of why parks wouldn’t just start only building shuttles is because people want variety. I believe inverted coasters, dive coasters, wing coasters, wooden coasters, launch coasters, etc. are all a distinct type of coaster in the GP’s mind and I don’t believe any one type is perceived as necessarily better or worse than any other type. I think shuttle coasters are viewed in the GP’s mind as “that kind of coaster that goes through the course forward then falls back through it again backwards” just as inverted coasters are viewed as “that kind of coaster where you hang below the track” or dive coasters are “that kind of coaster where you drop 90 degrees.”

The GP might like inverted coasters just as much as any other coaster, but if a park started building only inverted coasters? Or only dive coasters? People would get tired of it and want something different. In a similar vein, people might not mind one “forwards then backwards” coaster or even two, but any more than that, and the novelty of that gimmick — like any other — wears off.

 

[northdetective]

I can’t tell if you’re being sincere here or not, but you’ve either misunderstood the prevailing argument in defense of shuttles, or you’ve constructed a one doozy of a strawman. I don’t think anyone has said that the GP “doesn’t even notice a difference between a shuttle and a full circuits” in the sense that they literally can’t distinguish between the two. I’ve understood the pro-shuttle sentiment here to mean that the GP doesn’t necessarily consider shuttles worse than full-circuits.

You're right regarding actual conceptual distinction but the minimization of the perceptibility of the shuttle aspect has been a recurring theme

Thank you. Nobody in the GP is thinking about these coasters being shuttles. If they noticed the “slop they’ve been served,” they would’ve raised concerns about Great Adventure fifteen years ago. They are not killing the park with the biggest untapped potential in the chain, massive change was needed (fully agreed that this is the fault of legacy SF btw) and they’re in the beginning of that process. This coaster is unlike anything that has ever been built and will realistically be a better product than Ka. It’s incredible to me that enthusiasts will praise Ride to Happiness to no end, but this is some sort of evil coaster that should not exist in their eyes.

The GP might like inverted coasters just as much as any other coaster, but if a park started building only inverted coasters? Or only dive coasters? People would get tired of it and want something different. In a similar vein, people might not mind one “forwards then backwards” coaster or even two, but any more than that, and the novelty of that gimmick — like any other — wears off.

.... yeah ....... wouldn't that get people to acknowledge that having two headliners in a row being shuttles is not novel or intriguing or as much of massively securely successful prospect as it's generally made out to be on here? since that doesn't happen I just think Six Flags thinks their customers won't notice, which is largely supported by the vocally supportive (slop-complicit) customers I seem to find

 

[harry580]

You're right regarding actual conceptual distinction but the minimization of the perceptibility of the shuttle aspect has been a recurring theme





.... yeah ....... wouldn't that get people to acknowledge that having two headliners in a row being shuttles is not novel or intriguing or as much of massively securely successful prospect as it's generally made out to be on here? since that doesn't happen I just think Six Flags thinks their customers won't notice, which is largely supported by the vocally supportive (slop-complicit) customers I seem to find

but the reason why six flags gotten flash is because they got it as a last minute addition as a addition to a planned addition (which got scrapped in favor of project purple) and the park that meant to built the coaster that become a flash themed scrapped it, if the park didnt got flash, they would has gotten I don't know, another water coaster (which is something I wanted)

 

[northdetective]

but the reason why six flags gotten flash is because they got it as a last minute addition as a addition to a planned addition (which got scrapped in favor of project purple) and the park that meant to built the coaster that become a flash themed scrapped it, if the park didnt got flash, they would has gotten I don't know, another water coaster (which is something I wanted)

I'm well aware. Great Adventure should've gotten Siren's Curse. It didn't

 

[harry580]

I'm well aware. Great Adventure should've gotten Siren's Curse. It didn't

that's because sirens curse was planned for six flags Mexico but they give it to cedar point due to political reasons at Mexico

 

[northdetective]

that's because sirens curse was planned for six flags Mexico but they give it to cedar point due to political reasons at Mexico

... right ... and they didn't give it to ... Great Adventure

 

[Mushroom]

.... yeah ....... wouldn't that get people to acknowledge that having two headliners in a row being shuttles is not novel or intriguing or as much of massively securely successful prospect as it's generally made out to be on here? since that doesn't happen I just think Six Flags thinks their customers won't notice, which is largely supported by the vocally supportive (slop-complicit) customers I seem to find

I think that’ll depend in part on how heavily Six Flags markets the shuttle aspect of Project Purple. Assuming they focus on touting its many other noteworthy aspects — the height, launch, spinning, etc. — I don’t really see why it’s an issue if their back-to-back headliners happen to be shuttles. I think you and I would both probably agree that the shuttle aspect of Purple was likely a measure to keep costs under control for a project that had to be a certain size (height) and without that measure the project never would’ve gotten off the ground. So the shuttle aspect is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

A sort of inverse example of this is Tumbili and Rapterra at KD. Two back-to-back coaster additions that are both technically wing coasters. But Tumbili’s being a wing coaster is more a means to its primary selling point — the flipping — so it doesn’t really matter that Rapterra opened right after it. If the coasters opened in the reverse order and Tumbili came after Rapterra, I still don’t think it would really matter since the wing aspect isn’t the defining trait of Tumbili. (That said, if the next two coasters KD opens are also wings, then I absolutely think people would catch on and get tired of it.)

I’m curious if you feel the same way about the spinning aspect of Purple since it’ll come right on the heels of Barrels of Fun.

 

[Nitro230]

... right ... and they didn't give it to ... Great Adventure

Yeah I'm with you on this one. Great Adventure should have gotten Siren's Curse after the fall out with Kingda Ka, it certainly would have taken some of the pressure off of Flash if GA had gotten both rides. Unfortunately CP is the golden child and that's something we're going to have to live with as long as the two parks are in the same chain. But at the same time I'm just numb to GA being second or third on the totem pole, the park was just completely ignored for a decade while Magic Mountain and Great America were constantly getting new coasters.

 

[northdetective]

I think you and I would both probably agree that the shuttle aspect of Purple was likely a measure to keep costs under control for a project that had to be a certain size (height) and without that measure the project never would’ve gotten off the ground. So the shuttle aspect is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

I would buy this if it were 400 feet. There's not even a distinct measure they're attempting to live up to. The insufficient ends do not justify the experience-diminishing means

I’m curious if you feel the same way about the spinning aspect of Purple since it’ll come right on the heels of Barrels of Fun.

Yeah I've made comments to this effect, but was mostly met with the "you could've gotten nothing !" responses. I think it's embarrassing to have two wild mice in one park but that's just because I can recognize them as such as a thoosie

Yeah I'm with you on this one. Great Adventure should have gotten Siren's Curse after the fall out with Kingda Ka, it certainly would have taken some of the pressure off of Flash if GA had gotten both rides. Unfortunately CP is the golden child and that's something we're going to have to live with as long as the two parks are in the same chain. But at the same time I'm just numb to GA being second or third on the totem pole, the park was just completely ignored for a decade while Magic Mountain and Great America were constantly getting new coasters.

both rides??? I'm not even asking for that much. I just don't think Cedar Point needed a new ride that season and God knows some of the other parks could've made better use of flash

 

[Nitro230]

both rides??? I'm not even asking for that much. I just don't think Cedar Point needed a new ride that season and God knows some of the other parks could've made better use of flash

I'm only saying that because by the time the decision was made to pull the plug Flash was at least half assembled already, yeah Flash really should've gone to a much smaller park and Siren's Curse goes into that spot to try and take away the sting of losing Ka but there really is no way that could've happened unless the merger happens sooner and the decision to remove Ka is made before Flash begins construction.

 

[Mushroom]

I would buy this if it were 400 feet. There's not even a distinct measure they're attempting to live up to. The insufficient ends do not justify the experience-diminishing means

Do you really think most guests know or care what a stratacoaster is? I have no idea why Six Flags opted for a coaster that’s just shy of 400 feet (and I think that was a miss) but most guests will surely be impressed by a coaster that absolutely towers over the park and everything else in it. The goal of this project, one way or another, was obvious to optimize for height, with the trade off being the total “real” track length.

Maybe I’ve missed it, but can you remind me what exactly your objection to shuttles is? What makes them “experience-diminishing” by nature? Is it just the capacity concern? Do you dislike running through a course twice, one of those times being backwards?

 

[Nitro230]

Of the few gp I've talked to that are aware of what Phantom Spire is....the response is overwhelmingly positive. Obviously I've only talked to a small sample size but so far it seems like the gp are excited about the idea of this ride. I don't think it will have the same pull that Ka did, because it's not the world's tallest coaster people won't necessarily make the trip out to Jersey for it, but it should be more than enough to get those in the area to come back.

 

[northdetective]

Do you really think most guests know or care what a stratacoaster is?

No, but I absolutely do believe way more people than is generally acknowledged remember the exact stats of Kingda Ka and are therefore capable of realizing that 375<400 and 375<<456. Anecdotally I have heard multiple non-thoosies (NJ locals) spit out "128 miles per hour, 456 feet up in 28 seconds."

Maybe I’ve missed it, but can you remind me what exactly your objection to shuttles is? What makes them “experience-diminishing” by nature? Is it just the capacity concern? Do you dislike running through a course twice, one of those times being backwards?

I find a redundant second pass to be trite, and of course the low capacity, but again I see that as a feature, not a bug

Of the few gp I've talked to that are aware of what Phantom Spire is....the response is overwhelmingly positive. Obviously I've only talked to a small sample size but so far it seems like the gp are excited about the idea of this ride. I don't think it will have the same pull that Ka did, because it's not the world's tallest coaster people won't necessarily make the trip out to Jersey for it, but it should be more than enough to get those in the area to come back.

If I find a "GP" who knows what Phantom Spire is, it's because I've explained it to them, and they hate it because my explanation is imbued with hatred. Framing is key

 

[warfelg]

I find a redundant second pass to be trite, and of course the low capacity, but again I see that as a feature, not a bug

Given it’s going to be spinning, that actually makes the shuttle part more enjoyable because it’s highly unlikely you will experience the same forces.

We have no full confirmation of what the capacity will be yet so speaking too much on that front is a bit much.

Look, I’m not a huge fan of this because I don’t handle the spinning aspect well (tough lesson learned after Laff Trak) - but it’s going to be one of the better shuttles on that feature alone.

That leaves out the inverted launch (maybe inverted braking for extreme hang time), the outer bank at the top of the spire, and the sheer size of the stall.

This coaster is without a doubt in my mind is going to be one of the most unique things ever created in a park, and it’s likely the mic drop of shuttle coasters. Complaining about redundant just because it’s a shuttle and ignoring the factors that most likely will make it anything but is mind blowing to me.

 

[northdetective]

Given it’s going to be spinning, that actually makes the shuttle part more enjoyable because it’s highly unlikely you will experience the same forces.

We have no full confirmation of what the capacity will be yet so speaking too much on that front is a bit much.

Look, I’m not a huge fan of this because I don’t handle the spinning aspect well (tough lesson learned after Laff Trak) - but it’s going to be one of the better shuttles on that feature alone.

That leaves out the inverted launch (maybe inverted braking for extreme hang time), the outer bank at the top of the spire, and the sheer size of the stall.

This coaster is without a doubt in my mind is going to be one of the most unique things ever created in a park, and it’s likely the mic drop of shuttle coasters. Complaining about redundant just because it’s a shuttle and ignoring the factors that most likely will make it anything but is mind blowing to me.

"One of the most unique things ever created in a park" doesn't make much sense to me. Either something is singular in some aspect or it is not. This is the overstatement I get frustrated with, though I understand others get frustrated with what they see as my overstatements.

Every argument in favor of this coaster's existence just reads like marketing fodder to me. It can have as many firsts and category-specific records as it wants to remind me of the "gratitude" I should be expressing, but that doesn't translate into something I think I will enjoy. Braking upside down while spinning sounds absolutely terrible as an experience to me, and apparently, the spinning alone is likely to be too much for many others.

Anyways I fully anticipate if there's any braking in the stall on the return it will be vomit-inducing for me personally. That's my new concern. Whatever happens at least I'll feel powerful knowing neither train can run until mine is cleaned

Back on topic to the next addition after slop spire. I still want my train

 

[MikeGS6789]

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Interesting video from Coliwood where he talks about some of the restrictions the park faces when it come to what areas of land they can build upon. Starts at 3:44.

 

[sharpr1]

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Interesting video from Coliwood where he talks about some of the restrictions the park faces when it come to what areas of land they can build upon. Starts at 3:44.

Good reminder of known factors. I don't think anyone is expecting the park to expand its footprint beyond the current confines, parking lot construction notwithstanding. It's about what to do with underutilized or unused spaces that exist now.

The teaser for his next video made me laugh. How many on here for how long have talked about Great American Scream Machine 2 as a dream coaster? A tilt coaster over the go carts track and Right Stuff building plot I guess is possible. He says midway through the video that he knows about nothing beyond Shoreline Pier and Project Purple, so purely fun speculation/clickbait to start talk of a "Project 2028." The only actual hints I've heard about "what's next" from actual sources connected to the park are the survey asking about a 400' drop tower and Ryan's comments about a woodie.

 

[harry580]

the thoosies are stuck between a tilt coaster or a wooden coaster