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To be fair to @Blauer, depending on how wide his definition of greed is, it may be greed. Plenty of people believe the entire capitalistic system is "greed, well defined."

I believe we have clearly demonstrated that what @Blauer is calling greed is simply the modus operandi throughout the entire amusement industry and the larger service sector of the economy. If he wants to call that greed, that's perfectly valid per some popular definitions. Ultimately, he gets to decide what behavior he thinks is or is not greed.
 
To be fair to @Blauer, depending on how wide his definition of greed is, it may be greed. Plenty of people believe the entire capitalistic system is "greed, well defined."

I believe we have clearly demonstrated that what @Blauer is calling greed is simply the modus operandi throughout the entire amusement industry and the larger service sector of the economy. If he wants to call that greed, that's perfectly valid per some popular definitions. Ultimately, he gets to decide what behavior he thinks is or is not greed.
While I think this is one of those "fair enough" type thoughts, IMO it sets up an argument in what I would consider "bad faith" because then there is no ability to have a conversation and makes me even less engaging.
 
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These companies are profitable. Cutting lower paid employee hours just boosts profits for shareholders and executives. It’s greed well defined
They're billions in debt. If that's considered "profitable" perhaps that's a lot more tied in to the subject of "greed" than reasonable day-to-day business practices.
I find the park business weird. They need to appear as a sort of regional institution and therefore often act like one, even though they are a for-profit business.
 
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These companies are profitable. Cutting lower paid employee hours just boosts profits for shareholders and executives. It’s greed well defined

Boosting profits for shareholders is… the entire reason these companies exist. Shareholder profits is their one and only end goal. Cedar Fair, Six Flags, SEAS — they’re all publicly traded companies that people invest in for no other reason than to see their investment grow in value. If you’re the CEO of one of those companies, you have a single job: increase shareholder value.

All those other nice things — a good guest experience, making customers happy — are simply means to an end. They do those things because ultimately, they make money. If one of these companies invented a machine that could print billions of dollars but they’d have to close the parks and fire their employees to use it, they’d do so in a heartbeat.

So maybe it is greed. But I doubt you’ll find one publicly traded company in any industry that isn’t “greedy.” It seems to me that maybe your problem is with capitalism.

I bet that if you were in the position of one of these companies’ CEOs, you’d make the same decision.
 
Boosting profits for shareholders is… the entire reason these companies exist. Shareholder profits is their one and only end goal. Cedar Fair, Six Flags, SEAS — they’re all publicly traded companies that people invest in for no other reason than to see their investment grow in value. If you’re the CEO of one of those companies, you have a single job: increase shareholder value.

All those other nice things — a good guest experience, making customers happy — are simply means to an end. They do those things because ultimately, they make money. If one of these companies invented a machine that could print billions of dollars but they’d have to close the parks and fire their employees to use it, they’d do so in a heartbeat.

So maybe it is greed. But I doubt you’ll find one publicly traded company in any industry that isn’t “greedy.” It seems to me that maybe your problem is with capitalism.

I bet that if you were in the position of one of these companies’ CEOs, you’d make the same decision.
You put this better in words than I could - but this seems to be the problem at hand.

It's why I haven't been super interested in the conversation, because parks seem to be used as the boogyman in the argument that capitalism is bad. Even go with where the bigger issue seems to lie - KD - I have an even lesser concern over them closing in bad weather because of the "remote" location of KD. In heavy rains you are potentially risking guests and employees safety by being open. As someone that was deemed "essential" in some businesses and having to work there in heavy rains and lightning, as well as having to do things outside, I really wish we just fully closed. It's not fun driving a golf cart with metal posts around a golf course in a thunderstorm to collect metal posts on every hole - not exactly the safest thing to do. And I had to do that because some people went out in the 2 hour window where the lightning was far enough away.
 
CEOs, board members, owners and shareholders get a bad rap, I fear this thread is devolving in to a deep capitalism debate then a weather closure debate. But the fact of the matter is we can talk about them making money all day but we don’t talk about the risks these people take. There is a reason the reward is so high, the risk is high, the work loads are often intense. I know it’s far to easy for us to sit back and place blame on these people because of our preconceived notions of them, but the fact of the matter is they are people too. If it was so east why are we all not doing it. But to circle back to the title of the topic of discussion I think it comes down to one a lot of coasters fail to complete runs during bad/cold weather, it effects the out door show’s experiences and games resulting in the bottom line far out weighting the profits, and honestly why have the park open if you are going to offer a poor excuse of an experience if you can not maintain what the customers have come to expect.
 
To be fair to @Blauer, depending on how wide his definition of greed is, it may be greed. Plenty of people believe the entire capitalistic system is "greed, well defined."

I believe we have clearly demonstrated that what @Blauer is calling greed is simply the modus operandi throughout the entire amusement industry and the larger service sector of the economy. If he wants to call that greed, that's perfectly valid per some popular definitions. Ultimately, he gets to decide what behavior he thinks is or is not greed.

I think my objection to the use of the word ”greed” is its connotative meaning. It is clearly pejorative, and in modern American English implies a level of amorality or immorality.

Without knowing the actual motivations behind the decisions being made at either the local or corporate level, I do not see how anyone can reasonably infer a moral element to park operations.
 
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Can we get back to the topic of weather closures? Cause this thread got way off track…
 
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Eh, the thread is named "Weather" Closures because it's really about the practice of closing parks due to low attendance as a result of poor weather or forecasted conditions. Whether or not the practice is reasonable and/or ethical is a fair topic of discussion per the thread topic in my opinion.
 
This could be a messy weekend for the park, park goers and Christmas Town Dash. The weather isn't looking good with heavy rain expected Saturday afternoon and evening and light to steady rain Sunday.
 
I'm curious if VA has any laws on safety structures and open space usage. I know some places have it so that with every so many people that can be on the property you need to have a certain amount of square footage dedicated to safety structures.

Does KD even have that much readily available space that people could take shelter in during foul weather? And usually it can't just be space, like Action Theater, because sometimes there's requirements over being regular use spaces.
 
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Does KD even have that much readily available space that people could take shelter in during foul weather? And usually it can't just be space, like Action Theater, because sometimes there's requirements over being regular use spaces.

Yes, KD was certified StormReady by the National Weather Service in 2013:
 
Because I'm lazy, does anyone know if that certification expires or if there's new requirements that need to be met to continue being certified?

Also, the article mentioned storm shelters already existed at the park at the time. Are all of those spaces still available with the same capacities?

I'd think with a few of them (Action Theater, CAG arcade space, etc) likely having Haunt sets and miscellaneous storage during the regular season, capacity would be diminished if the buildings are able to be occupied at all.

And then you have the Peanuts showplace, which besides being shuttered though it's conceivable staff can quickly open it up and guide guests into it, provided the weather doesn't splash through the open roofline.
 
Because I'm lazy, does anyone know if that certification expires or if there's new requirements that need to be met to continue being certified?

Also, the article mentioned storm shelters already existed at the park at the time. Are all of those spaces still available with the same capacities?

I'd think with a few of them (Action Theater, CAG arcade space, etc) likely having Haunt sets and miscellaneous storage during the regular season, capacity would be diminished if the buildings are able to be occupied at all.

And then you have the Peanuts showplace, which besides being shuttered though it's conceivable staff can quickly open it up and guide guests into it, provided the weather doesn't splash through the open roofline.
The buildings that are certified as shelters are labeled with signage
 
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Yes, KD was certified StormReady by the National Weather Service in 2013:
Thanks! I knew the NWS had one and different states have different laws. Wasn’t sure that KD had one. In most cases these places don’t want to have to use them.
 
So, no, you do not have any actual data to support your claims, just anecdotal evidence.
You really think Cedar Fair etc makes their questionably ethical decisions public record?


I get it, I get it. You obviously care more about the rights of a corporation to increase their profits, cut employee wages and not provide the customer what they are expecting than you do of the rights of the employees. Karma is a thing and people who defend these kind of practices probably will end up victim of them in the long run. Hope your employer doesn't cut YOUR wages with no notice!


Please explain why a park would advertise an 8 or 9 PM closing and close earlier than that with no dangerous weather in the air and obvious low attendance in the park. Its definitely NOT about employee safety or they would pay the employees for their scheduled hours when they send them home in these situations. My employer pays us if the roads are dangerous because of snow etc.

Here's a documented instance of Kings Island closing early because of rain, and it stopping. I felt horrible for these customers that traveled all the way from the UK to experience a sleazy, Cedar Fair ghost closure. No rain in the air when they were forced out the park early. This has been my unfortunate experience several times at these parks. Including 5 times last year between Carowinds, BGW and Kings Dominion. Early closure with no rain at closing time.

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Defend that! Somehow you will.
 
Please explain why a park would advertise an 8 or 9 PM closing and close earlier than that with no dangerous weather in the air and obvious low attendance in the park. Its definitely NOT about employee safety or they would pay the employees for their scheduled hours when they send them home in these situations. My employer pays us if the roads are dangerous because of snow etc.
Posting here because the other thread is way off topic.

Anyways, as someone who has worked within theme parks as a ride operator, and then as a team lead, there is more than just attendance and weather that go into making the decision to close early.

So say the park was advertised to close at 8. But the storms are supposed to last all the way until 2am. Instead of making the staff work all day in those conditions, they will likely cut closing shifts, and ask the people who opened if they’d like to extend their shifts to close (this is not the same for all parks, just the one I worked at). This due to the fact that those staff are already there, and the closers may not yet be there. Why do they do this? Because it saves the park money. It’s not because the park wants to close early, but because they need to close early. When the park has to make the decision to close early, they’re not simply looking at attendance. They’re also looking at their money flow that day. On a day where there’s maybe less than 500 people in the park, they are operating at a loss. The park cannot justify staying open if they are losing money. By closing early, they save money because they weren’t open for as long.

Yes, it seems crappy from the guest side of things, but from the back end, it’s ultimately for the good of not only the guests, but the employees as well. I for one always loved to pick up an extra couple hours on a day where I opened but we closed at 2pm.

Now, on the flip side, what if the weather forecast says storms are supposed to clear around 2:30, but the park is open until 8. How many people do you know are likely to wait until then to visit the park? Additionally, the decision to close early is usually made relatively early in the day. Once the decision is made, there’s no going back. Shifts are removed, openers asked to stay if they can, and guests are informed. So even if the weather may clear up at some point, unless the park thinks they can recover from a weather day like that, they’re more likely to close early.

Yes, the weather and attendance play a factor, but so does the backside of things. Park operations will need to adjust their staffing, culinary will need to cut down their food prep and staffing. Guest arrivals will need to deal with rainy day tickets. So much more than just “We’re closing early because we don’t want to stay open.” It’s because “We aren’t able to stay open due to factors beyond our control.” There’s a very fine line. It would be one thing if it was Disney or Universal pulled this, because they have so much to keep people in and justify going on a rainy day, but these aren’t Disney or universal, these are regional parks. These regional parks aren’t going to have the same draw.

The bottom line here is that when a park closes early, it’s not that they want to, but that they need to. Businesses exist to make money. Theme parks are the same way. If they’re not making money, they can’t justify staying open. Unfortunately, theme parks often suffer from weather impacting their operation more than most places.

As for your employer paying if roads are dangerous and such, I assume I’d be correct in assuming your hold a fulltime job?
One thing worth noting is a large majority of theme park employees are not fulltime, but rather part time. Part time jobs do not guarantee you 40 hours a week, unless you have a contract explicitly stating so. Another thing worth noting is that being hired on at a theme park, you agree that when you’re hired, that you’re okay with working outdoors for long periods of time, in potentially extreme weather conditions such as high wind or heavy rain. The employees that work on a day like those are working because they agreed to do so, and on those days know full well it’s likely they may not work their full shift. Theme parks are a completely different beast, and comparing your fulltime job to a primarily part time job location definitely doesn’t work here.
 
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I've said it before and I'm happy to say it again: I believe basically every regional amusement park in the United States closes for severely depressed attendance resulting from poor weather conditions—and I think that practice is wholly reasonable and defensible.

I have no idea why we're having this debate for the 20th time—this time in a thread about the merger of Six Flags and Cedar Fair. Argue about it until your heart is content in the thread dedicated to the subject.

So i guess they do it too, but it appears to be more just the waterpark. Note that in 2 of those the main park was still open those days.

Now please do Carowinds, but not through their social media. I have found they don't even post their closures sometimes on them. Carowinds Fans Only on Facebook page tracks the park early closures and lets people know. Carowinds did this at least 10 times last year.

Cedar Fair was whining in their last quarterly financials about lower attendance due to weather. They have told their customers to stay home when their is rain, they will close the park. So its HILARIOUS that attendance is down because of the "weather" lol. Its also because of their weather policies.

They are not a well run company. They treat their employees poorly cutting their work hours with no notice to pad corporate profits. They have no plan to grow attendance among new markets of people, and seem to depend on "perfect" weather for great attendance. Unlike Disney for example, that builds attractions that function in all weather. This is one huge reason that the year-round operations were such a disaster last year. They don't have all weather attractions, and send people home whenever they can due to the "weather" which encourages low attendance on these days to they can do just that. Its a vicious cycle.

Their stock is a poor long term investment IMO and that is relative to this merger.

I honestly don't care who criticizes me for posting about these questionable business practices of these companies. If i can save one person from making a wasted trip to these parks, or encourage an employee to find a better job that doesn't cut their hours with no notice, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
 
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