The State of the Park: Busch Gardens Williamsburg

[warfelg]

Random thought on this topic that is not meant to justify what BGW did.

But the concept of cutting hours by closing earlier seems to be a common industry practice. I was thinking about what @Zachary said about not shifting hours and how we agreed that should be the better solution. As I looked around different parks and their old hours vs current hours, it seems like the average operating day has been cut by 3.5 hours.

Now what I found interesting is that’s the average printed hours. Why did I want to point that out? Many parks offer early start times. Meaning the cut in hours printed for daily pass tickets is 3.5 hours, but in many parks that have this the pass holders and resort hours were only cut 2.5 hours. So not only have some parks cut hours, they’ve also transplanted one of the hours for general public from night time to limited crowds early in the day.

I find it interesting in these instances that they rather cut back the general public leaving time than move back the early start opening times and keeping the closing time the same.

I wonder how many parks have studied and if anyone can get their hands on the data of park numbers in the 9-10 (early start) vs 10-11 (opening hour) vs 8-9 (closing hour). Surely (hopefully) they studied this and where they are cutting is a low income time period and not a potentially revenue generating time period.

 

[Bring Back Questor 87]

All of this is an exercise in what seems to be a ubiquitous, current theme of today: Less offered, more commanded.

I could half-justify if this was happening when ticket prices were $60. Not today.

 

[warfelg]

All of this is an exercise in what seems to be a ubiquitous, current theme of today: Less offered, more commanded.

I could half-justify if this was happening when ticket prices were $60. Not today.

Yup.

Off topic real quick but it’s funny that near me there’s an expensive ($175/mnth) gym that boasts being open 24/7. Amazing locker room, multiple work out areas, basketball, pickle ball, pool, sauna, hot tubs.

Then when you tour and talk to them, everything but the yoga room is closed from 9pm to 6am. A yoga room BTW that’s a separate entrance off the courtyard. There isn’t even a restroom available.

Anyways back on topic:
It doesn’t really ok what BGW is doing but it’s the movement of business. The scarcity aspect of it. By having less hours companies can charge more because there’s more demand to go there. It’s almost like they are trying to go “oh things aren’t good, but you’re only able to visit on this small window, so we need to charge more so it’s not too crowded.”

 

[Nicole]

Thinking about other parks, Disney increasingly is offering extra hours at night at a fairly high cost.

Guests staying in Deluxe resorts generally get two extra hours at Magic Kingdom on Wednesday and at EPCOT on Monday (although we got Hollywood Studios once instead).

They are also adding more and more upcharge after-hours parties across all four dry parks and the water parks.

Their special events (Mickey's Not So Scary and Very Merry) are also at night.

 

[warfelg]

Thinking about other parks, Disney increasingly is offering extra hours at night at a fairly high cost.

Guests staying in Deluxe resorts generally get two extra hours at Magic Kingdom on Wednesday and at EPCOT on Monday (although we got Hollywood Studios once instead).

They are also adding more and more upcharge after-hours parties across all four dry parks and the water parks.

Their special events (Mickey's Not So Scary and Very Merry) are also at night.

I’m going in September. I think we did the extra hours our Epcot night since we’re drinking around the world for the SIL’s 40th.

Feel free to do this in another thread but how exactly do that handle that.

Anyways for the topic of BGW with this thinking - man could you imagine how much BGW would mess up something like this? I could see people that don’t understand what the concept is, they let them stay, and eventually they just would be open late.

 

[b.mac]

I wonder how many parks have studied and if anyone can get their hands on the data of park numbers in the 9-10 (early start) vs 10-11 (opening hour) vs 8-9 (closing hour). Surely (hopefully) they studied this and where they are cutting is a low income time period and not a potentially revenue generating time period.

Can't show you the actual numbers for fairly obvious reasons but the reason there's been a shift to morning hour ERT like this is a method of attempting to coax passholders into spending more time in the park on a consistent basis.

The majority of passholders at Great Adventure who visited more than 2 times a season usually showed up in the afternoon / evenings to ride some rides and bounce when the crowds were lighter than usual. By moving the ERT and the low traffic period to the morning it forces them to come early and the potential was there to motivate them to stay into the afternoon instead. Did it work really? Yes... kinda? Hersheypark did something similar but their passholders are also more local and a lot more willing to spend the day at the park even in bad conditions, so them moving the ERT into the "chocolatetown preview" hour was an attempt to get them through the gate early to get the customer satisfaction scores up. I say that mainly because the entry experience at the park has not been as successful as they had hoped for the $100 million investment they made and they've had multiple complaints about the slow entry speeds and the lack of shade, and then the early preview usually got bogged down by Candymonium and accompanying rides not opening on time.

A different note with the operating hours but outside of the Halloween periods of the season majority of the parks usually started to have their exodus' around 7:30 to 8pm local time, so a lot of parks are factoring for that and just cutting their operating day there to save money because at that point in park sales start to wind down across the board.

 

[warfelg]

Can't show you the actual numbers for fairly obvious reasons but the reason there's been a shift to morning hour ERT like this is a method of attempting to coax passholders into spending more time in the park on a consistent basis.

Appreciate the answer here. That to me is interesting because (and I know I'm going out of order)

A different note with the operating hours but outside of the Halloween periods of the season majority of the parks usually started to have their exodus' around 7:30 to 8pm local time, so a lot of parks are factoring for that and just cutting their operating day there to save money because at that point in park sales start to wind down across the board.

This is eye opening to me that it's different of the sentiment of people wanting to be there late. Maybe with the combination of what @Zachary has posted is people are going earlier because of the ERT, and are hot and tired and likely just done by that 8pm time, they just wouldn't stay later. I would love if some small park tried to do the ERT from Noon to 1pm, then opened the park in full from 1pm to 11pm at night and see if that still happened with people leaving en mass at 8pm. Of course, there's also the chance that some of this data included knowing what time people arrived and even the people arriving at 1pm left by 8pm.

The majority of passholders at Great Adventure who visited more than 2 times a season usually showed up in the afternoon / evenings to ride some rides and bounce when the crowds were lighter than usual. By moving the ERT and the low traffic period to the morning it forces them to come early and the potential was there to motivate them to stay into the afternoon instead. Did it work really? Yes... kinda? Hersheypark did something similar but their passholders are also more local and a lot more willing to spend the day at the park even in bad conditions, so them moving the ERT into the "chocolatetown preview" hour was an attempt to get them through the gate early to get the customer satisfaction scores up. I say that mainly because the entry experience at the park has not been as successful as they had hoped for the $100 million investment they made and they've had multiple complaints about the slow entry speeds and the lack of shade, and then the early preview usually got bogged down by Candymonium and accompanying rides not opening on time.

I've heard all those complaints from Hershey too FWIW. I won't go too much into the weeds with them since this is a BGW thread but - IMO - they've really misstepped a lot lately.

As for the broader point, it's interesting what you bring up here and how all of it ties together. People seemingly just leaving as groups no matter what time they show up, trying to entice pass holders to come earlier and stay into the afternoon rather than encouraging them to stay later with programs like deeper food discounts post 7pm, free lightning lanes later in the evening, and member exclusive evening events like putting an outside entertainment group in a smaller venue and having a member only show at 9pm.

Overall everything you explained feels like a "someone got something good out of this, so we should do it too" without understanding the dynamics of their own customer base.

 

[Coasternerd]

Guests staying in Deluxe resorts generally get two extra hours at Magic Kingdom on Wednesday and at EPCOT on Monday (although we got Hollywood Studios once instead).

Disney has started switching to Hollywood Studios more for their extended evening hours given that the park is a bit smaller and easier from a guest flow standpoint.

 

[b.mac]

This is eye opening to me that it's different of the sentiment of people wanting to be there late. Maybe with the combination of what @Zachary has posted is people are going earlier because of the ERT, and are hot and tired and likely just done by that 8pm time, they just wouldn't stay later. I would love if some small park tried to do the ERT from Noon to 1pm, then opened the park in full from 1pm to 11pm at night and see if that still happened with people leaving en mass at 8pm. Of course, there's also the chance that some of this data included knowing what time people arrived and even the people arriving at 1pm left by 8pm.

It wasn't because of the shift of ERT to the morning that things died off at 8, this was before they all started doing the early entry stuff when the parks would usually open for everyone at 10:30am-11am and operate until 11pm-midnight. Guests just did not like spending time in the park once the sun started going down and the only guests who really stuck around were the ones who were biding their time waiting for the lines to die down, the ones savvy enough not to spend their money on needless things and stuff like that.

Great Adventure had a whole analytics system set up to track guests activities and behavior and they found that ridership increased drastically towards the end of the day but spending on merch, food, and games dropped compared to the "normal" behavior in the middle of the day. They literally had a heatmap of the park that'd update every 15 minutes. They basically determined that it wasn't as profitable to keep the park open for 2-4 hours after that window for guests who weren't going to spend the money the park wanted them to spend, so the hours got reduced to either force those guests to blend in with the "normal" behavior or flip their behavior entirely and come to the park early and hopefully spend money later.

There's a bunch of other massively messed up things that are involved in this whole process but it's a general gist of the thought process that Great Adventure (and at large, Six Flags) was employing in order to try and sustain profitability prior to COVID setting in. They were not the only amusement park company doing this because the analytics companies tasked for setting these things up for Six Flags were also setting things up for Cedar Fair, Herschend, and Sea World at some point. Hersheypark also used these same analytics parties to attempt to create their new entry experience for 2020 2021.

 

[warfelg]

Kinda always brings me back to my end result @b.mac that no matter how unpopular certain things may be, consumer behavior drives the change.

 

[mikes]

I ultimately don't care that the park isn't open super late, but I do care that the experience has SUCKED the last couple of times I was at the park for the hours it was open. I can't spend money if the lines to grab something I really didn't need in the first place are long. If its' a short line, or quick moving line, I might splurge. Water country apparently had some really poorly staffed days where right waits were ridiculously long. That is time you aren't at the park spending on food/merch.

I do enjoy nighttime in the parks, but with kids it's hard to enjoy it so 8 and 9 are completely okay and that's why I say I don't care about it being super late. There's just something about all the rides lighting up that just feels better than daytime.

 

[Nicole]

Disney has started switching to Hollywood Studios more for their extended evening hours given that the park is a bit smaller and easier from a guest flow standpoint.

Last December they did Deluxe hours at Animal Kingdom (I had forgotten until now). It was excellent. That is a park that consistently closes too early. It is essentially designed to be experienced at night.

 

[sotomexx]

So does anyone think the perception of unruly young adults especially after dark is contributing to the earlier departure times for guests? Not specifically BGW but with chaperone policies at other parks around fall events, it seems that this might be plausible. Then again, we tend to leave the park to hit a real restaurant before they close instead of waiting in long lines for crappy food

 

[Zachary]

I, of course, don't have stats, but I'd assume that fights after dark during Halloween events have more to do with the crowds Halloween events draw than the fact that it's after dark. In fact, I'd assume that fights are more likely during the day in the summer due to the often miserable temperatures making people abnormally irritable.

 

[bill s]

There’s such a thing as the last straw. They used to be open till 10 PM years ago. Then they cut back to nine then they cut back to eight etc.+ all the other cutbacks in live entertainment, ride operations, food service etc. Then there’s the sleazy upcharge and the exorbitant food prices. there’s a point when enough is enough.

Plus, as I said, Virginia is miserably hot in the summertime. The early closures on the weekdays virtually gives no time to enjoy the park when the temperature is the most pleasant..

It’s true they have more operating days, but there are season pass price is higher than Kings Dominion.

Not that I’m defending Kings Dominion inability to operate more than summer days and weekends. They used to be open until 10 PM as well, and they seem to follow whatever cutbacks Busch Gardens gets away with. So it wouldn’t surprise me if they end up closing at eight sometime in the future. And that will be the last straw to visit there as well.

But the sad truth is when these parks do these things and lose attendance, instead of correcting them, they just do more of these cutbacks and it’s a downward spiral

I recall taking a break from membership maybe 10 years ago and then they switched from 9 to 10 closings as if to spite me. When they had the original Imaginique show in the amphitheater it started at 9 as everything else closed, which was kind of generous. Anyway the hours have been up and down over the years. I recall the increased hours were accompanied by events to promote them. Fireworks in multiple locations in the park. It's really hard to get people to stay late.

 

[dawno]

Exactly. If they are shortening hours, it would make much more business sense to shorten the morning hours and be opened later at night when the heat is so brutal. It’s miserable walking around the park in 90+ degree weather but once the sun goes down, it’s super pleasant.

Plus, these parks are transformed into different, exciting places at night.

We live 6+ hours away. We have driven down to VA, checked into our hotel (always the Doubletree since it's closest) then headed over to the park, sometimes after 6pm. It was great when F&W or HoS was going on and it was open late, but on a regular night, an 8pm closure would prevent us from going. We did let our membership / season passes lapse before covid and have not renewed, so even with a fun card, after parking it just wasn't worth going.

We have considered walking from the Doubletree, but it just seems too long. That said, on nights when overflow parking is used, a quick jaunt across the street to that lot would give us access to the tram and make it doable.

 

[horsesboy]

I would like to point out that part situation with earlier closing is that Kings Mill has place increased pressure on the county and park on evening noise levels. On top of that my understanding is that the park has a certain number of aloud late night wavers but that the increased number if Howl-O-Scream and Christmas Town days eat significantly into those wavers.

 

[horsesboy]

Every time I have been in the last week at least 25% of the kiosk have been down. If BGW is going to use a system where I have to print out a ticket verifying my visit for my reward then either fix them or at least station someone there to assist

 

[Burnouts]

Every time I have been in the last week at least 25% of the kiosk have been down. If BGW is going to use a system where I have to print out a ticket verifying my visit for my reward then either fix them or at least station someone there to assist

I don’t understand why they don’t have a pod of these in the park. Ridiculous.

Also insane how the 1! By the entrance gates requires entering the long membership id manually.

 

[horsesboy]

I don’t understand why they don’t have a pod of these in the park. Ridiculous.

Also insane how the 1! By the entrance gates requires entering the long membership id manually.

Honestly I can never get mine to scan at any of them by the end of food and wine each year I have it about 70% memorized from typing it in so often