The State of the Park: Busch Gardens Williamsburg
- Thread starter CoasterTalkBob
- Start date
The InBev coup and the fall of Arrow were two of the worst things to happen to the theme park world (other than the pandemic), and it has yet to recover.
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I'm not sure about Arrow. We're talking about the company that built the Bat and didn't bother to bank the track. I'm sure there were heated discussions over that and incompetence won out. At least they fixed it for the BBW. Their design strategy worked well for smaller coasters up through the mid eighties but was a complete failure when they tried to scale up to larger coasters. Their design and engineering just wasn't that good.
When they resisted CAD long after it was proven to be useful in the market, and even then didn't switch to heartlining until far too late, coupled with a fabrication shop still doing stuff by hand instead of taking advantage of precision machinery... That's likely why scale was such an issue.
I went to BGT in October for HOS and literally none of the gift shops in the park were open. The Florida parks definitely suffer from staffing issues.
Has anyone ever seen the pizza place under Manta open? I've been going to SWO on a fairly regular basis (for a VA resident) and I've never seen it open. Not during Christmas, not during summer, not during spring break. I did see it open as a haunt during HOS but that's it.
The Florida parks are definitely not as well run as BGW is. On the surface, both Florida parks are solid, but the mediocre operations, shops being closed, some rides basically sitting abandoned in plain sight, and the 5% surcharge on everything really brings those parks down. At least BGW had the decency to take Cradle down so it didn't look abandoned. Phoenix has been closed for ages and the skyride looks to be permanently shuttered too.
While I do feel BGW is starting to slip, it's still in a better state than most of the other SEAS parks
Has anyone ever seen the pizza place under Manta open? I've been going to SWO on a fairly regular basis (for a VA resident) and I've never seen it open. Not during Christmas, not during summer, not during spring break. I did see it open as a haunt during HOS but that's it.
The Florida parks are definitely not as well run as BGW is. On the surface, both Florida parks are solid, but the mediocre operations, shops being closed, some rides basically sitting abandoned in plain sight, and the 5% surcharge on everything really brings those parks down. At least BGW had the decency to take Cradle down so it didn't look abandoned. Phoenix has been closed for ages and the skyride looks to be permanently shuttered too.
While I do feel BGW is starting to slip, it's still in a better state than most of the other SEAS parks
When I went to CT the other day they couldn’t even manage to get the park open on time. The park was supposed to open at 2pm but they didn’t open the parking lot until 1:58 (there were hundreds of cars in the toll plaza backed up all the way to the interstate). We got in towards the head of the pack and didn’t even get through the front gate until 2:11; certainly no one made it through the turnstiles before 2:05. The 2:15 Scrooge No More had to be postponed to 2:30 and the 2:30 Celtic Fyre that I went to started about 5 minutes late and still played to an audience of maybe 30 people because no one could get to the Abbey Stone on time.
Sad that the park went from opening the gates nearly an hour before park opening, to not even being able to open on time at all. Mismanagement and incompetence abound.
Sad that the park went from opening the gates nearly an hour before park opening, to not even being able to open on time at all. Mismanagement and incompetence abound.
Not that I'm absolving the park of any actual issues they haven't addressed, but I wonder how much of that was due to call-outs and/or other staffing issues and how much of that was any sort of incompetence?
Though unlikely, for all we know the delays may have been due to any number of backstage issues including medical emergencies or delays in completing any required checklists/inspections ahead of opening the gates - perhaps there were exposed safety hazards that needed to be removed/remediated before guests could enter.
Though unlikely, for all we know the delays may have been due to any number of backstage issues including medical emergencies or delays in completing any required checklists/inspections ahead of opening the gates - perhaps there were exposed safety hazards that needed to be removed/remediated before guests could enter.
I’d argue that having such low staffing (read: low wages, poor treatment) that they can’t even open the park at the advertised time is a form of mismanagement.
Not sure if this belongs here but some great email proof reading.
Yeah, that's why I specified staffing (mismanagement) vs. outright incompetence.
However, as we don't know why they delayed opening, I'm left wondering if there may be an alternate explanation.
Just got back from my first trip back to WDW since COVID and I went in with pretty low expectations considering the general industry struggles post-COVID and what I have become accustomed to at BGW recently, and I just got hit with a bit of a reality bomb. BGW is in a very shitty state right now, and really isn't up to par considering the price they charge.
I am aware WDW has deeper pockets and has a lot more resources to counter-act the implications of the post-COVID struggles, but I still feel like many things were brought out into the open for me. There were some obvious problems as a result of poor staffing (longer lines for food, less frequent transportation) but all in all WDW felt pretty high-functioning. And yes again I know it is dumb to directly compare WDW and BGW, but the only reason I am comparing them right now is because I noticed something specifically horrific; it seems like generally BGW is more expensive than WDW.
Start with tickets, a non-promotional single day ticket at BGW is about the same as WDW. I know ticketing WDW is a more complicated endeavor, but say you just want to stop by MK for a day like you would go to BGW for a day, you pay about the same price to walk through the door assuming none of BGW's stupid promotions are active. Other than tickets, it is way cheaper and easier to eat literally anywhere in WDW than it is in BGW. The portions at WDW are larger, food is more consistent, and it is quicker to obtain, all while being generally cheaper. No surcharges, no bullshit. Souvenirs even seem more fairly priced. Beer and other alcohol is cheaper and is much larger portions. I can go on and on. I understand how business works, you can charge lower prices with a higher volume, but I had previously never noticed this large gap between the two parks because it was never this large. With how much BGW has pulled back portions and raised prices, it is shocking how much of a ripoff we are currently semi-shrugging off since it happened gradually.
I am seriously considering cancelling my membership to BGW at this point in favor of annual or twice a year trips down to Orlando and just get less-frequent doses of a better park experience. BGW used to be enough in regular doses to satisfy that top-tier experience craving. Not quite S-Tier, but the tippy top of A-Tier. Now, I'd almost call them average, teetering on the bottom end of it. I keep seeing more and more stuff in other threads like those stupid Pantheon Hoops and the ugly DK photo building and just I don't know when it is going to end. At this point I am just feeling used as a customer, I am being charged more and more by BGW for a worse and worse guest experience. I'm over it, and I am at that breaking point. 2023 is my make or break year, let's see what they can turn around.
I am aware WDW has deeper pockets and has a lot more resources to counter-act the implications of the post-COVID struggles, but I still feel like many things were brought out into the open for me. There were some obvious problems as a result of poor staffing (longer lines for food, less frequent transportation) but all in all WDW felt pretty high-functioning. And yes again I know it is dumb to directly compare WDW and BGW, but the only reason I am comparing them right now is because I noticed something specifically horrific; it seems like generally BGW is more expensive than WDW.
Start with tickets, a non-promotional single day ticket at BGW is about the same as WDW. I know ticketing WDW is a more complicated endeavor, but say you just want to stop by MK for a day like you would go to BGW for a day, you pay about the same price to walk through the door assuming none of BGW's stupid promotions are active. Other than tickets, it is way cheaper and easier to eat literally anywhere in WDW than it is in BGW. The portions at WDW are larger, food is more consistent, and it is quicker to obtain, all while being generally cheaper. No surcharges, no bullshit. Souvenirs even seem more fairly priced. Beer and other alcohol is cheaper and is much larger portions. I can go on and on. I understand how business works, you can charge lower prices with a higher volume, but I had previously never noticed this large gap between the two parks because it was never this large. With how much BGW has pulled back portions and raised prices, it is shocking how much of a ripoff we are currently semi-shrugging off since it happened gradually.
I am seriously considering cancelling my membership to BGW at this point in favor of annual or twice a year trips down to Orlando and just get less-frequent doses of a better park experience. BGW used to be enough in regular doses to satisfy that top-tier experience craving. Not quite S-Tier, but the tippy top of A-Tier. Now, I'd almost call them average, teetering on the bottom end of it. I keep seeing more and more stuff in other threads like those stupid Pantheon Hoops and the ugly DK photo building and just I don't know when it is going to end. At this point I am just feeling used as a customer, I am being charged more and more by BGW for a worse and worse guest experience. I'm over it, and I am at that breaking point. 2023 is my make or break year, let's see what they can turn around.
Honestly, my trip to WDW last summer left me feeling rather similar to your thoughts. KD now has my money, as we are receiving a much better experience for a lower cost. Win-win situation IMHO.
My only counter point here: last time I was at WDW and did this I managed to get on 6 rides all day due to lines. Last time I was at BGW and paid full RAC rate I still got to ride everything I wanted. Because of that I felt my value was better at BGW because as someone with only the time for a single day at each park (and unable to plan it well in advance) WDW felt impossible to do. (This was 2021 when I went FYI. At MK I got on SpcMtn, SplMtn, 7Dwarves, IASW, HM, and PotC).
EDIT - Before a tizzy starts, I’m not defending BGW. More saying that WDW, even UO, is not a park you can just “stop by for a day” anymore. With all the quick lanes, scheduled ride times, resort access, ERT, and single rider queues, plenty of their rides gave hour long waits before single day passes walk in the door. At least at BGW only QQ can effect that, and even there it’s kinda rare.
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Your math kind of scares me
I just looked and Disney is $149 and BG is $105
Yes BG has a dton of problems But I would rather deal with these problems than only maybe getting in 5 or 6 rides a day .Lets not forget you also have to have a reservation for Disney
Once again NOT really trying to defend BG But come on lets be real their is no direct cost comparrison
I also just looked and saw $109. Regardless, I think it is absurd the prices are as close as they are.
This whole "6 rides a day" thing is also strange. I am aware lines at WDW can get big and can inhibit ability to do all the rides, but just as easily you can well plan your day and get to go on everything you'd want. Just this past trip, which was also a full capacity day at MK, i was able to do the following:
I don't want to open up a "how to do WDW" conversation in this thread any more than I seem to of, but my original point was not to trigger some "um ackshually WDW is still slightly more expensive sometimes", rather just that my WDW experience really highlighted how expensive BGW has gotten for a much lower quality product than it once was. It was a huge perspective shift, since WDW showed me a far superior post-COVID product at about the same cost. Every time I got food I was like "wow I'm spending less money here than at Festhaus and getting more food that is generally better", stuff like that.
This whole "6 rides a day" thing is also strange. I am aware lines at WDW can get big and can inhibit ability to do all the rides, but just as easily you can well plan your day and get to go on everything you'd want. Just this past trip, which was also a full capacity day at MK, i was able to do the following:
- Big Thunder
- Pirates
- HM
- Pooh
- Peter Pan
- Tiki Room
- Carousel of Progress
- People mover
- Hall of Presidents
I don't want to open up a "how to do WDW" conversation in this thread any more than I seem to of, but my original point was not to trigger some "um ackshually WDW is still slightly more expensive sometimes", rather just that my WDW experience really highlighted how expensive BGW has gotten for a much lower quality product than it once was. It was a huge perspective shift, since WDW showed me a far superior post-COVID product at about the same cost. Every time I got food I was like "wow I'm spending less money here than at Festhaus and getting more food that is generally better", stuff like that.
Here's a good price comparison for you. Just got back from a vacation to FL yesterday. A 16oz beer was $3.75 all day, every day. BGW; same beer, $14! I won't even get into food portions and quality. I won't be spending much at BGW this season.
Out
Adding an extra interesting wrinkle. Looking up tickets, if you get tickets in June for Disney right now it’s $154/ticket for ages 3-9. If you can get to BGW before May 31st you can get the 3-5 preschool pass for free.
Then BGW’s single day ticket and all day dining is $155. So for the extra $50 you can get an entree, side item/dessert, and drink every 90 minutes. No ability to add anything like that with Disney.
EDIT - DO I think BGW is overpriced for what it is now? Yes. But it’s still not in a place where comparing pricing/experience/everything post COVID to Disney IMO. But the fact that, for the money, you can do more at BGW even on a full day vs Disney where you need to either really plan ahead or have multiple days, it makes the value proposition different to me.
Out in June it jumps to $159 for Disney.
Adding an extra interesting wrinkle. Looking up tickets, if you get tickets in June for Disney right now it’s $154/ticket for ages 3-9. If you can get to BGW before May 31st you can get the 3-5 preschool pass for free.
Then BGW’s single day ticket and all day dining is $155. So for the extra $50 you can get an entree, side item/dessert, and drink every 90 minutes. No ability to add anything like that with Disney.
EDIT - DO I think BGW is overpriced for what it is now? Yes. But it’s still not in a place where comparing pricing/experience/everything post COVID to Disney IMO. But the fact that, for the money, you can do more at BGW even on a full day vs Disney where you need to either really plan ahead or have multiple days, it makes the value proposition different to me.
As with everything, I think it really comes down to how one uses their passes when trying to ascertain the benefit you get from them.
If you just look at one day tickets, then yes, Disney is not much more expensive than other chains. But things really start to pale in comparison if you are a frequent theme park visitor who likes to visit multiple parks and/or multiple times. In that regard, here is how pricing (not quality) looks, based on at least 7-8 visits to various parks in each chain with the best pass possible:
Six Flags
Cedar Fair
BG/Seaworld
Universal Hollywood
Universal Orlando
Disney Land - No new annual passes, IIRC
Disney World - No new annual passes
I think BG/Seaworld used to have a lock on what I would call "best value". but I have to agree with Coasternerd that Cedar Fair has taken that title from BG/Seaworld.
If you just look at one day tickets, then yes, Disney is not much more expensive than other chains. But things really start to pale in comparison if you are a frequent theme park visitor who likes to visit multiple parks and/or multiple times. In that regard, here is how pricing (not quality) looks, based on at least 7-8 visits to various parks in each chain with the best pass possible:
Six Flags
Cedar Fair
BG/Seaworld
Universal Hollywood
Universal Orlando
Disney Land - No new annual passes, IIRC
Disney World - No new annual passes
I think BG/Seaworld used to have a lock on what I would call "best value". but I have to agree with Coasternerd that Cedar Fair has taken that title from BG/Seaworld.
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The ratio of in-park prices to quality is what has been killing me—both in a vacuum and compared to the competition.
I've honestly been spending next to nothing inside the gates at BGW since the surcharge hit and I see no reason to change that as prices continue to balloon and quality continues to plummet. I now eat before and after my visits and I purchase zero merch. I NEVER used to be that guest—I basically always ate at least one meal every visit and I have a merch collection that would put 99.99% of the park's guests to shame.
On the food front, I can spend dramatically less at Cedar Fair, Herschend (which I think is the best comparison to SEAS right now), Universal, or Disney parks and have a dramatically better experience and be served way better food.
On the merch front, look at how BGW murdered pin collecting for an example of how far things have degraded over such a short period of time. They had huge lines of guests (like me) spending $16+ for pins they were probably buying for, literally, like 50 cents. People were buying through their stock over and over again. Why? Because they were releasing great designs that people wanted and facilitating the creation of a community around the product. Now they've gone and thrown what was a very, very lucrative offering out the window. Why? To fire one or two people and outsource more of the merch design process? Now all that's left is those same, exorbitant pin prices—but pinned on a couple shitty, uninspired, often generic designs no one wants.
And to be clear, I'm still spending plenty of money inside parks, it's just not at BGW anymore.
I've honestly been spending next to nothing inside the gates at BGW since the surcharge hit and I see no reason to change that as prices continue to balloon and quality continues to plummet. I now eat before and after my visits and I purchase zero merch. I NEVER used to be that guest—I basically always ate at least one meal every visit and I have a merch collection that would put 99.99% of the park's guests to shame.
On the food front, I can spend dramatically less at Cedar Fair, Herschend (which I think is the best comparison to SEAS right now), Universal, or Disney parks and have a dramatically better experience and be served way better food.
On the merch front, look at how BGW murdered pin collecting for an example of how far things have degraded over such a short period of time. They had huge lines of guests (like me) spending $16+ for pins they were probably buying for, literally, like 50 cents. People were buying through their stock over and over again. Why? Because they were releasing great designs that people wanted and facilitating the creation of a community around the product. Now they've gone and thrown what was a very, very lucrative offering out the window. Why? To fire one or two people and outsource more of the merch design process? Now all that's left is those same, exorbitant pin prices—but pinned on a couple shitty, uninspired, often generic designs no one wants.
And to be clear, I'm still spending plenty of money inside parks, it's just not at BGW anymore.
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It wasn't even the surcharges that drove this change in behavior for me, but obnoxious food lines and lack of food choices. The surcharges were the icing on the cake, and up until I cancelled my passes at the end of 2022, eating entailed a quick stop at McD's, Wendy's, Subway, etc. before heading to the park, and then spending a bit more on dining afterwards in the Williamsburg area, be it on BBQ or at a local brewery. Surely it was money that could have gone in the park's pockets, but the suboptimal BGW/WCUSA dining experience did it for me.