The State of the Park: Busch Gardens Williamsburg

[Nicole]

No one, least of all me, is defending BGW. If you read what I have said twice, I am condemning both SEAS and Disney. You, however, in your irrational defense of WDW sound exactly like the the mystery “fanboys” you keep referencing. My point is that both SEAS and Disney are showing similar patterns of increased costs with reduced guest experience. I’m sorry that provable fact doesn’t match your biases and narrative.

It is a simple fact that only MK and Epcot are running nighttime “spectaculars” right now. Here is the information being provided by Disney: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/entertainment/fireworks/

You said, “very little at Disney has not come back.” Regardless of why Disney didn’t do the Blizzard Beach upgrades while it was closed for COVID or during the winter months when all of the water parks were closed for weather, having an entire park closed is NOT a hallmark of a resort that is mostly returned to normal operations. In fact, even WCUSA managed to install additions this year, and open for the Summer.

Similarly, while Disney has been slowly opening their restaurants, there are too many that have yet to return to qualify as “very little.”

Clearly there are still many non-seasonal tours that remain "Temporarily Unavailable:" https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/events-tours/#/sort=alpha/

Having been to WDW twice in the past two weeks (including yesterday), it felt understaffed, overcrowded, and absolutely not "back to normal."

Again, WDW still has a park reservation system, limited park hopping, limited trams, reduced housekeeping, etc. It is also worth noting that only one annual pass tier is available for new purchases.

Again, so no one can choose to misunderstand me, I am not defending BGW. I think SEAS is absolutely sacrificing guest experience on the altar of short term profits. I also think they are not alone. The supposed industry leader appears to be making similar calculations, in fact. And to be clear, I have several annual passes and visit many theme/amusement park chains regularly (including Disney and BGW), so these observations are not based off of single, bad experiences.

 

[WDWRLD]

I think the big takeaway is this…..when you have a small park with over half of the food and beverage closed it’s way more noticeable than a very large park destination with a dozen or two places out of the hundreds closed. I bet most people leaving BGW noticed that it was hard to find a drink where as not many at Disney notice that Westward Ho Snacks is closed in The Magic Kingdom.

 

[warfelg]

I think the big takeaway is this…..when you have a small park with over half of the food and beverage closed it’s way more noticeable than a very large park destination with a dozen or two places out of the hundreds closed. I bet most people leaving BGW noticed that it was hard to find a drink where as not many at Disney notice that Westward Ho Snacks is closed in The Magic Kingdom.

We’re in the process of booking a trip for WDW next fall and my GFs sister is starting to think Uni because of the issues at WDW so it’s noticeable.

 

[Nicole]

I think the big takeaway is this…..when you have a small park with over half of the food and beverage closed it’s way more noticeable than a very large park destination with a dozen or two places out of the hundreds closed. I bet most people leaving BGW noticed that it was hard to find a drink where as not many at Disney notice that Westward Ho Snacks is closed in The Magic Kingdom.

I’m pretty sure that everyone who had to walk through the tram-less parking lots in the Florida sun and heat noticed. And I am equally sure that everyone stuck without Lightning Lanes or Boarding Groups and no way to switch parks noticed. And I am confident that everyone who found themselves in a park without a nighttime spectacular noticed.

I think the big takeaway is that both chains are prioritizing boosting (already record) profits over guest experience; and no amount of cherry picking your data will absolve Disney. I’m not sure why you are so quick to accuse other of defending BGW (when no one is), while also, yourself, defending Disney, which is equally guilty.

 

[WDWRLD]

We’re in the process of booking a trip for WDW next fall and my GFs sister is starting to think Uni because of the issues at WDW so it’s noticeable.

UNI definate;y was more mormal throughout covid and their customer service has been top notch, but I wouldnt rule out Disney. What "issues" during the planning stage is so noticable other than park reservations? Just courious as a vacation planner.

I’m pretty sure that everyone who had to walk through the tram-less parking lots in the Florida sun and heat noticed. And I am equally sure that everyone stuck without Lightning Lanes or Boarding Groups and no way to switch parks noticed. And I am confident that everyone who found themselves in a park without a nighttime spectacular noticed.

I think the big takeaway is that both chains are prioritizing boosting (already record) profits over guest experience; and no amount of cherry picking your data will absolve Disney. I’m not sure why you are so quick to accuse other of defending BGW (when no one is), while also, yourself, defending Disney, which is equally guilty.

I guess thats the perk to resort guests....you dont miss those parking trams. Speaking of nighttime shows, Mk has Fireworks, Epcot Harmonious, Studios has World of Animation and Becon of Magic, and Animal Kingdom closes before dark so the Animals can sleep. Not sure what you mean buynot being able to switch parks though?

 

[Nicole]

I'm trying to imagine your response, if BGW required you to book an on-site hotel room to have a way to avoid walking across the parking lots. That said, I always stay in WDW resorts, and I still use the parking lots, because the buses are horrible and better transport isn't available to every park.

Did you go to the link I provided. The official list of nighttime spectaculars provided by Disney does not include anything that is currently available for DHS or DAK. So, not even they would count the shows you listed.

Since Animal Kingdom used to have Rivers of Light (with 10pm show times) and nighttime safaris, the earlier closing times are really just another example of how things are not back to normal.

Because of the modified operations, as I'm sure you know, you can't park hop until 2pm.

Regarding Disney planning, please take that to the Disney sub-forum. The only reason I raised Disney was (as I have reiterated several times) because I believe the corporate decisions being made by SEAS need to be viewed in the broader industry context.

 

[WDWRLD]

I'm trying to imagine your response, if BGW required you to book an on-site hotel room to have a way to avoid walking across the parking lots. That said, I always stay in WDW resorts, and I still use the parking lots, because the buses are horrible and better transport isn't available to every park.

Did you go to the link I provided. The official list of nighttime spectaculars provided by Disney does not include anything that is currently available for DHS or DAK. So, not even they would count the shows you listed.

Since Animal Kingdom used to have Rivers of Light (with 10pm show times) and nighttime safaris, the earlier closing times are really just another example of how things are not back to normal.

Because of the modified operations, as I'm sure you know, you can't park hop until 2pm.

So your complaining that Disney provides a service that allows you to avoid the walk across the parking lot and drops you off near the tapstyles yet you choose not to use that?

I did go to the link you provided and on there it shows MNSSHP as unadvaliable as well but I have tickets for that so......

Anyhow on the link you provided under entertainment at Studios it shows "Wonderful World of Animation" at 9pm on the Chinease Theater, "Disney Movie Magic" at 8:40 on the Chinease Theater and on the MDE app it lists "Beacon of Magic" on the Tower of Terror at 8:30pm.

While Animal Kingdom does offer the tour "Starlight Safari" which is after dark the park does close before dusk, it does look like night time safaris are returning soon so I assume once summer hours arrive we will see that. Rivers of Light was not just discontinues for Covid, the show and all the boats were destroyed because of poor return on investment. No night time show has done well at AK because of the lack of the ability to have that wow factor that would disturb the animals.

As far as park hopping before 2pm, im not sure that park hopping before 2pm is a huge vacation ruiner for most guests. If it is something that you can not do without you can pay for tha ability to park hop earlier if you so wish.


Now back to Busch Gardens and the State of the Park.......Right now many times when I have been recently the trams there dont run either, but if you dont want to walk as far they upsell you preferred and VIP parking.

 

[Nicole]

I am not talking about me; I park in preferred. I was talking about the large number of guests who are still trudging across parking lots, because the trams have not yet returned, BECAUSE THINGS ARE NOT BACK TO NORMAL.

Trying to understand your position, it is bad that BGW will sell you VIP and preferred to deal with the lack of trams. But it is good that Disney will make you stay in one of their own resorts or pay for preferred to avoid the problem caused by the compete lack of trams? You can see why it appears that you are not arguing in good faith. They are literally doing the same thing, which has been my point all along.

DAK used to open after dark. It is not anymore. So, it is not “back to normal” no matter how you twist it.

As you must surely know, there is no way to park hop before 2 pm. But even if you could pay to do so, you are proving my point that just like SEAS, Disney is looking for ways to boost profits, rather than improving guest experience.

I can’t tell if you are misunderstanding me or intentionally misrepresenting what is on the page. These are the non-seasonal nighttime spectaculars listed by Disney. You can see all of the shows that are listed as “Temporarily Unavailable.” So, once again, things are not back to normal.

 

[Zachary]

Quick thoughts on this SEAS in industry context thing:

1. Completely agree that similar philosophies are guiding both DIS and SEAS right now
2. DIS started in a better place than SEAS and remains in a better place than SEAS—but I think it is CRYSTAL clear that both are inflicting ENORMOUSLY negative decisions on guests right now in search of additional profits
3. Other—in my opinion, better run—chains are currently demonstrating that these extreme measures are not at all required to turn a healthy profit in this industry right now. In fact, we're seeing other chains pushing guest experience improvements harder than ever before
4. If BGW tried some of the shit Disney is currently pulling (requiring reservations, prioritizing non-pass admissions over pass admissions, limiting the number of days you can even plan to attend as a pass member, not offering parking trams, restricting new rides to upcharges or what essentially amount to lottery systems, etc) I don't know if there would be anyone left on this forum with a pass. Yeah, I can't get a drink at BGW, but at least I can ride Pantheon and I'm less likely to die of heat stroke in the parking lot.
5. Post-COVID: SEAS, in shambles. Disney, degrading. Universal, upwards. Cedar Fair, succeeding. Six Flags, we'll see.

 

[WDWRLD]

I am not misunderstanding you, it just seems you dont know what the night time entertainment that is offered is or where to look to find it so I attached screen shots for you. You can get all the park hopping you want as early as you want with a VIP guide, again if hopping is that important to you there is a option. I personally dont miss not being able to park hop that early, do I dislike the reservation system yes and do I think the tram situation at both parks sucks yes but it seems that everyone is outraged that disney dosent offer trams but is understanding of BGW not offering them. As far as your comment @Nicole that the "busses are horrible" I do not find that bad. I get where I need to go in a reasonable time without having to drive anywhere. They can be horrible if you do not understand or think about things such as leaving a park right after fireworks or waiting till just before rope drop to try and get a bus to a park. Go earlier or leave later and the experience is much more pleasureable. Theres also the resorts you chose, if you dont mind a busier bus then a vlaue resort is good for you but of you want a quieter bus look at Riviera, The Grand or The Poly.

 

[halfabee]

I’m sorry, but the Disney buses are objectively fucking terrible. Often the worst part of the day.

 

[Zachary]

You can get all the park hopping you want as early as you want with a VIP guide, again if hopping is that important to you there is a option.

I hope BGW is listening! @WDWRLD is fine with parks taking benefits away from guests and then locking them BEHIND PRIVATE VIP TOURS RANGING IN PRICE FROM $425 TO $850 PER HOUR! In other words, when BGW launches the new VIP Beverages™ program allowing you to access the front of any drink line in the park for $300 an hour, thank @WDWRLD for that incredible Innovation!

Seriously @WDWRLD, Disney can't be paying you enough to justify this incredible degree of cognitive dissonance.

 

[WDWRLD]

I hope BGW is listening! @WDWRLD is fine with parks taking benefits away from guests and then locking them BEHIND PRIVATE VIP TOURS RANGING IN PRICE FROM $425 TO $850 PER HOUR! In other words, when BGW launches the new VIP Beverages™ program allowing you to access the front of any drink line in the park for $300 an hour, thank @WDWRLD for that incredible Innovation!

Seriously @WDWRLD, Disney can't be paying you enough to justify this incredible degree of cognitive dissonance.

I didnt say I used them or liked them.....but Nicole mentioned not having "Lightning Lanes, Boarding Groups and no way to switch parks"......well if those are things you can not do without then there is a option.

I dont give two shits about your VIP beverage package, hell they might as well have it now because a standard park guest certainly cant find a drink in the park......its bad when people bring waters because they know ahead of time hydration options are limited.

Anyhow @Zachary dosent the ACE group basically get VIP treatment at BGW? I mean they bought their way onto Pantheon before it opened....but I guess thats ok in your book.

 

[Zachary]

I literally can't even with this @WDWRLD.

You said @Nicole was wrong about a current restrictions. She elaborated. You retorted with "WeLL THEy CAN JUST sPEnD HuNdredS of DOlLARs aN HOUr ON A VIP TOUr." You're clearly arguing in just the absolute worst of faith here. You're not even pretending otherwise.

Speaking of bad faith, your stated position is that you'd be fine with BGW offering the VIP Beverage™ plan I described? I'll just be frank: you're lying. Anyone can look at your past pattern of positions and know that without any shadow of a doubt.

Lastly, NO ONE SAID VIP EXPERIENCES = BAD—that's just yet another strawman you've constructed. The issue I highlighted with park hopping is that before Disney decided some additional profits were more valuable than the long-term reputation of their brand, anyone with a park hopper ticket could go to any park at any time. That was Disney pre-COVID during normal times.

Today's very much not back to normal Disney requires you to have a park reservation at one park, go to that park, enter that park, wait until 2pm, check for park hopping availability, and then go to another park.*

* Unless, as you so studiously pointed out, you spend hundreds of dollars an hour to purchase a private tour service well in advance of your desired park hopping day.

That said, ironically, this is yet another instance where anyone can just accept your premise and still clearly and easily see that Disney is—say it with me now—

Not Back To Normal

Anyway, I'm done with the back and forth discourse on the details surrounding the current Disney experience @WDWRLD. @Nicole already demonstrated her case through and through. My arguing with you is only worthwhile if it stands to change the minds of uninvolved bystanders. I'm CONFIDENT the case has long since been won in their eyes.

 

[WDWRLD]

Hey @Zachary say it with me…..ONE STEP CLOSER TO NORMAL!

According to WDWNT WDW Transportation had a ribbon cutting ceremony for the return of the parking trams. Also, photo credit to WDWNT.

 

[b.mac]

 

[Zachary]

Hey @Zachary say it with me…..ONE STEP CLOSER TO NORMAL!

According to WDWNT WDW Transportation had a ribbon cutting ceremony for the return of the parking trams. Also, photo credit to WDWNT.

View attachment 26903

To be clear, @Nicole literally covered this. Magic and Animal have their trams back. Epcot and Studios are still waiting. It is the summer of 2022—more than two years since the pandemic—and two of the most popular theme parks in the world are making guests bake in the Florida sun walking over endless seas of pavement every day.

Why hasn't Disney brought back parking trams sooner? Money. Disney makes money getting people to book Disney resorts. Disney saves money not running and maintaining the trams. Bob Chapek sees dollar signs. Guests lose faith in Disney.

Sound familiar? Does to me.

Why hasn't BGW fixed the AC in Brauhaus? Money. BGW makes money selling booze without AC. BGW saves money by not running and maintaining the AC. Scott Ross sees dollar signs. Guests lose faith in BGW.

It's almost like there's a parallel here...?

 

[WDWRLD]

To be clear, @Nicole literally covered this. Magic and Animal have their trams back. Epcot and Studios are still waiting.

problem caused by the compete lack of trams?

Can you provide where she mentioned that the Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom trams had returned becasue I looked and could not find it, in fact all I found is were she said "complete lack of trams".

most popular theme parks in the world are making guests bake in the Florida sun walking over endless seas of pavement every day.

I like how you and Nicold keep repeating the "bake" in the Florida sun part......I mean yall act like people arent planning on being outside in the Florida sun all day at a theme park anyhow.


This is my point though....people that look here and other places for planning information for decisions on upcoming trips and yall acting like its the end of the world and there are no trams and your going to die a slow death as you bake in the "endless sea" of the parking lot at Disney. You can only ride a couple rides a day without Lightning Lane and Boarding Groups and your stuck to one park and Disney is miserable right now because I was just there yesterday........but again yall have always said to me just because I saw something in my little narrow view that is not the normal so my obvervations are invalid.

 

[Zachary]

She said on the last page that they were partially back.

They don’t even have parking trams at all of their parks.

The bit you quoted was speaking about the guest experience at a park without trams.

I'm confident you are aware that parking lots are, in fact, hotter than park paths? Regardless, you are, AGAIN, attempting to shift the subject to Disney. This is a BGW thread.

Disney parks are not back to normal. SEAS parks are not back to normal. Disney is making aggressive guest experience cuts and jacking up prices. SEAS is making aggressive guest experience cuts and jacking up prices. These are simple, demonstrated facts. Your constant gish galloping doesn't change it, sorry.

There are two different directions major players in this industry are headed right now. Disney and SEAS are attempting to cash in on their historically strong reputations and high price points to squeeze more dollars from their existing customers. Universal, Cedar Fair, and, reportedly, Six Flags are all aiming to improve the guest experience in-park to reach a wider, more profitable market. This context is critical to understanding what is currently happening at BGW..

 

[WDWRLD]

But see I look at the directions SEAS and DIS are going as headed in two diffrent directions. Disney is trying to suck as much money from pockets as posible and no matter what speed they suck pockets dry the guests are lining up to get in the door. Disney did this a few years ago where they jacked upprices to make the experience better for some while out pricing others by causing less people to come. That didnt work so well as people just kept coming more and more. I feel Disney also is using the "covid"as a excuse to make changes they have wanted for years but knew people would be outraged over....but now if for safety or staffing shrtages. They tried to cut back on housekeeping by allowing guests to opt out....didnt work. BGW on the other hand from my limited view is making the bare minimum on me through my monthly membership price. Since so much is closed at the park im not spending for food and beverage, we eat before of after. Food and Wine we only did our free samples over many visits till we tried just about everything since we are so close. Only merch ive bought was with the free Busch Bucks since nothing really interests me rightnow. Again, I would love to go back to the old park where I would visit in the evenings during the week amd get a dessert or a ice cream as a treat at the end of the night, a beer or even a dinner once a week or so (pre dining plan). That just cant be done anymore.

Basically Disney is offering all kinds of new ways to spend money in their parks where as BGW is making it difficult for visitors to spend money and in the process pissing off once a year vacationeers as well as locals.