horsesboy said:
Zimmy said:
Well. As Luke would say, be that as it may.
I do think Nicole's "Nope" summarizes one's own feelings about a true, authentic LNM experience.
Ride or die, mofo's.
The Loch Ness Monster
- Thread starter Zachary
- Start date
Well. As Luke would say, be that as it may.
I do think Nicole's "Nope" summarizes one's own feelings about a true, authentic LNM experience.
Ride or die, mofo's.
There are some rumors going around on instagram that Nessie could be getting 1st gen vekoma trains. I know this is a attractions forum but it seemed kinda insignificant to post in the rumors section.
2muchpopcorn said:
Interesting.
I know a few years back sooperdooperlooper underwent a change from Schwarzkopf trains were replaced with Getstlauer trains. Improved the quality of the ride. It also went from friction brakes to magnetic. I wonder how Nessie would do with a similar transformation.
On a personal note: anything with bigger width an more leg room would make this 6’ 225 lb rider happy!!!
...And this 6'-4" 225 lb rider as well.
Do you sit more upright in Vekoma's newer offering than in Arrow's classic looper rolling stock? It kinda looks like you don't, which is a bit of a shame, as LNM's two noteworthy sources of discomfort are (1) the lateral headbanging and (2) the tailbone jackhammering of the loop entrances and exits. Any theoretical new trains really ought to address both of those issues, and the seating position is a major contributing factor to the discomfort associated with issue (2).
Can't judge it until train replacement (maybe) happens someday... but I'd be skeptical before actually riding it.
Do you sit more upright in Vekoma's newer offering than in Arrow's classic looper rolling stock? It kinda looks like you don't, which is a bit of a shame, as LNM's two noteworthy sources of discomfort are (1) the lateral headbanging and (2) the tailbone jackhammering of the loop entrances and exits. Any theoretical new trains really ought to address both of those issues, and the seating position is a major contributing factor to the discomfort associated with issue (2).
Can't judge it until train replacement (maybe) happens someday... but I'd be skeptical before actually riding it.
Not that anyone asked me... But still... Just saying...
If they put Vekoma trains on Nessie after what they did to Arrow. At the risk of sounding hyberbolic it would almost be like they were urinating on Ron's grave. She is, after all one of, if not the important Arrow remnant.
Seriously, in all fair warning, I might loose my mind.
Personally I would be much more comfortable with just about anyone but Vekoma.
If they put Vekoma trains on Nessie after what they did to Arrow. At the risk of sounding hyberbolic it would almost be like they were urinating on Ron's grave. She is, after all one of, if not the important Arrow remnant.
Seriously, in all fair warning, I might loose my mind.
Personally I would be much more comfortable with just about anyone but Vekoma.
Well they have made some very good coasters and it seems you along with some other people judge their company based on their old terrible coasters instead of looking at their new Awesome coasters and coasters coming in the future. But what they did to Arrow was messed up.Zimmy said:
2muchpopcorn said:
First generation Vekoma trains seem unlikely as they are really just more rounded versions of the standard Arrow trains and their second generation trains are very similar to Drachen Fire/Canyon Blaster trains. In fact all of Vekoma's roller coasters up until the mid-late 90s were actually running Arrow manufactured trains due to a licencing agreement with Arrow where Arrow would build the trains and Vekoma would build the track. Vekoma doesn't make the MK-1200, MK-1210, MK-1211 trains anymore. The trains on Blue Hawk and most other newer Vekoma "MK-1200 style" roller coasters are their MK-1212 trains which I think are the ones you are talking about.
I know some people really hate these trains (and I think it is mostly the earlier iteration of these trains because the restraints had a tighter fit in the shoulders than the more recent installations) but I really have loved the comfort of the MK-1212 on the coasters I have ridden with them.
2muchpopcorn said:
I judge them harshly for their business ethics.
Small business ethics typically will flow down from ownership. I'd be curious to learn whether Vekoma has the same ownership/leadership structure now that it had then -- or, semi-equivalently, whether current ownership/leadership learned at the knee of the suckering-Arrow generation. Occasionally you can get major changes at the top of the small pyramid and the character of a place can totally shift, making history a poor predictor of future behavior. No idea about that sort of thing with Vekoma. Maybe someone here knows.
I would say generally that amusement business has a thread of shadiness running through it. ...not with all attraction providers, but certainly with some. It's just one instance of a standard trope, the group of small businesses competing for life-sustaining dollars flowing from larger corporate buyers. Some of the tales... I wish there was an anonymous place to share them and hear others'.
I would say generally that amusement business has a thread of shadiness running through it. ...not with all attraction providers, but certainly with some. It's just one instance of a standard trope, the group of small businesses competing for life-sustaining dollars flowing from larger corporate buyers. Some of the tales... I wish there was an anonymous place to share them and hear others'.
My thing with the whole Arrow-Vekoma issue:
Arrow, IMO, shot themselves in the foot. They offered to help Vekoma, then basically ended up saying "no no no, here take this". What do you expect to happen there? Arrow helped Vekoma become a roller coaster manufacturer and didn't do anything to protect themselves. There's one of four things Arrow could have done:
1 - Sign a non-compete. Arrow won't sell in Europe for X years, Vekoma can't sell in America for X years.
2 - Partner up and Vekoma does all the clone coasters, Arrow does custom projects. Or Vekoma projects in America get built by Arrow and vice versa.
3 - Merge companies. Become Vekoma Arrow or Arrow Vekoma or Arkoma.
4 - Make Vekoma buy your trains/track and deliver it to the site not letting them dissect it!
Yes, Vekoma ended up cannibalizing Arrow a bit there, but man Arrow really didn't help themselves IMO.
Arrow, IMO, shot themselves in the foot. They offered to help Vekoma, then basically ended up saying "no no no, here take this". What do you expect to happen there? Arrow helped Vekoma become a roller coaster manufacturer and didn't do anything to protect themselves. There's one of four things Arrow could have done:
1 - Sign a non-compete. Arrow won't sell in Europe for X years, Vekoma can't sell in America for X years.
2 - Partner up and Vekoma does all the clone coasters, Arrow does custom projects. Or Vekoma projects in America get built by Arrow and vice versa.
3 - Merge companies. Become Vekoma Arrow or Arrow Vekoma or Arkoma.
4 - Make Vekoma buy your trains/track and deliver it to the site not letting them dissect it!
Yes, Vekoma ended up cannibalizing Arrow a bit there, but man Arrow really didn't help themselves IMO.
That's really the fundamental problem, at least from the facts as I understand them. Arrow didn't take basic steps to protect themselves in anticipation of untrustworthy behavior from a "trusted" partner. It just smells like a decision made by mutually enthusiastic engineers lacking the sharp teeth and "as long as it's not a crime" pseudo-scruples more common to a finance, legal, and/or business-first mindset. If I had a buck for every engineer who was perfectly willing to wonk out and overshare due to a handshake, verbal assurance, or friendly hello...
Competitive teardowns, or at least (shall we say) highly detailed inspections, occur in this industry regularly, so I don't think your #4 would have been effective. Still, actually handing over the recipes is quite the head-scratcher as it removes one of the biggest barriers to getting ripped off. Never share the secret sauce outside The Circle!
I find it ironic that on the Coaster tour at BGW, the one thing you are forbidden to photograph in the LNM maintenance basement is the mechanical system drawing on the wall. Understood, totally get it, but it dots the exclamation point on Arrow hand-delivering a lot more than that to a direct competitor 30 years ago... probably including a version of that very drawing.
Competitive teardowns, or at least (shall we say) highly detailed inspections, occur in this industry regularly, so I don't think your #4 would have been effective. Still, actually handing over the recipes is quite the head-scratcher as it removes one of the biggest barriers to getting ripped off. Never share the secret sauce outside The Circle!
I find it ironic that on the Coaster tour at BGW, the one thing you are forbidden to photograph in the LNM maintenance basement is the mechanical system drawing on the wall. Understood, totally get it, but it dots the exclamation point on Arrow hand-delivering a lot more than that to a direct competitor 30 years ago... probably including a version of that very drawing.
warfelg said:
Arrow’s naïveté does not excuse Vekoma’s poor ethics.
To be clear, I am not making any judgements about Verona now. I am saying that I am disgusted by what they did back then.
Nicole said:
While I don't disagree, Arrow did play into some of what happened and I can't fully (personally) exonerate Arrow. A little part of me will always ask "what if they just said no".
halfabee said:
Yea I'm in a business where part of you is just excited to just share ideas and want to have those intense discussions of how it all works, what's important, etc. etc.
But there's part of the business part that needs to take over and just remind yourself that you can't share everything.
Everyone is making some really great points. Though I am now thinking that this discussion has really moved well past Nessie since I’m about to totally go off the topic all together here... Was anyone else concerned when RMC announced their partnership with Vekoma to supply their products in Europe? I’m curious if RMC learned from Arrow’s mistake and exactly how their deal with Vekoma is structured.
Back on the topic of Nessie, I would love to see her get MK-1212 trains. I had once advocated that she get new trains from Kumbak Coasters, but I think it’s pretty telling now that two parks that had put Kumbak’s Arrow replacement trains on their coasters have since switched to MK-1212s. I’m sure I’m going to loose some points with a couple people for having that opinion...
Back on the topic of Nessie, I would love to see her get MK-1212 trains. I had once advocated that she get new trains from Kumbak Coasters, but I think it’s pretty telling now that two parks that had put Kumbak’s Arrow replacement trains on their coasters have since switched to MK-1212s. I’m sure I’m going to loose some points with a couple people for having that opinion...
Shane said:
I sure hope they did. Although I think that coaster companies did learn from what happened in that Arrow/Vekoma deal and will forge a much better deal this time.
Shane said:
What are the odd that the park could get new trains from S&S or Chance given that outside of Vekoma they are the most closely related?
If it's importance we're using as the yardstick as per Zimmy's post, then at a bare minimum I'd put Matterhorn and Magnum XL-200 above X -- and with those two it would not be particularly close.UncleDuncan said: