Six Flags/John Reilly: Sell KD Now
- Thread starter Avalancher
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Kings Dominion is just in such a strange situation. It's a great regional park but unfortunately I don't think it has the potential the OP thinks it has. Not because there isn't the base for a world class park....but because competition in the region is fierce. There's an elephant in the room that nobody has really brought up yet. Busch Gardens.
Busch Gardens despite its short comings recently is still considered to be the more desirable park in the region. While the quality has slipped just a little in recent years its still the more cohesively themed experience when you compare the two. Combine that with the fact that it's in a much more tourist friendly location and its not really a fair fight for Kings Dominion.
The other parks KD has been compared to in this thread don't really have that same level of competition. Kings Island has Cedar Point but that's a unique situation there. I honestly think Six Flags could run into a similar situation as they attempt to build up Great Adventure because Hersheypark has become such a strong regional destination park.
But the mindset of Cedar Fair, now Six Flags is to try and make as many of their properties regional destinations as possible because that's where the money's at. Thats why Kings Island, Carowinds, Cedar Point, and Knott's Berry Farm have received such large investments. And I think Kings Dominion IS a park that the company was hoping they could do something similar with. That's why so much effort has gone into Jungle X-Pedition. But unfortunately I think they've realized that the amount of investment needed to surpass Busch just isn't worth it.
Keep in mind this isn't the only park corporate wanted to build up but decided against it, California's Great America was clearly on that list as well.
So that's why it's stuck in the spot it is, a great regional park that will get a major investment every few years but not anything more. And I think after every major addition (assuming Six Flags holds onto the park) corporate will look at the ROI and reevaluate, the situation with Busch feels very in flux right now so it's not impossible to see things change eventually....but right now this is where things stand.
Busch Gardens despite its short comings recently is still considered to be the more desirable park in the region. While the quality has slipped just a little in recent years its still the more cohesively themed experience when you compare the two. Combine that with the fact that it's in a much more tourist friendly location and its not really a fair fight for Kings Dominion.
The other parks KD has been compared to in this thread don't really have that same level of competition. Kings Island has Cedar Point but that's a unique situation there. I honestly think Six Flags could run into a similar situation as they attempt to build up Great Adventure because Hersheypark has become such a strong regional destination park.
But the mindset of Cedar Fair, now Six Flags is to try and make as many of their properties regional destinations as possible because that's where the money's at. Thats why Kings Island, Carowinds, Cedar Point, and Knott's Berry Farm have received such large investments. And I think Kings Dominion IS a park that the company was hoping they could do something similar with. That's why so much effort has gone into Jungle X-Pedition. But unfortunately I think they've realized that the amount of investment needed to surpass Busch just isn't worth it.
Keep in mind this isn't the only park corporate wanted to build up but decided against it, California's Great America was clearly on that list as well.
So that's why it's stuck in the spot it is, a great regional park that will get a major investment every few years but not anything more. And I think after every major addition (assuming Six Flags holds onto the park) corporate will look at the ROI and reevaluate, the situation with Busch feels very in flux right now so it's not impossible to see things change eventually....but right now this is where things stand.
Yes, I recorded a voice memo & used an LLM to clean it up. If something about what I wrote is unclear, please just ask.
I have some substantive disagreements & some critiques on your argument here.
- Yes, Six Flags is still investing in KD. In my original post, I mentioned that the amount of investment today feels like maintenance as opposed to growth. My main point is they're not actually maintaining the park, they're shrinking it... as both park attendance and number of major attractions has declined in the past 10 years. I don't have a business degree, but I'd imagine in order for the park to resurge in both of these areas... it would require increased capital investment. I do not believe Six Flags will increase the level of capital investment in Kings Dominion, which leads me to the conclusion that the park will continue to shrink unless Six Flags sells it.
- I will admit the food quality has improved substantially over the last several years & commend them for that (although I'm not sure what the personnel situation is these days). The Entertainment department has seen substantial cuts in recent seasons. Haunt has seen a huge decrease in (again) capacity, attendance, and quality. The summer shows are coming back this year, but why did they stop? They were present every summer when I was growing up. So if you're going to give them credit for bringing some of these things back, I think you should also criticize them for removing something great in the first place.
- I disagree that Entertainment and Food investment has a more meaningful impact than Rides investment. All 3 are important, and I flat out refuse to overlook rides. They should do better.
- BGW and KD is not a 1 for 1 comparison. Just because BGW has had slippage in some areas & sustained growth in others, doesn't mean Six Flags gets a pass on a lack of investment in KD. Six Flags should be striving for KD to surpass BGW in all of these metrics.
The food quality HAD improved. It's on a clear backslide now.
@Zachary what’s the AI use policy? Especially if not explicitly disclosed in the OP?
I think it peaked around 2022 when Chef Denis Callinan was still at the park, but I don’t think the food quality change has been that drastic. The new tri-tip beef at Grain & Grill is genuinely the best theme park food I’ve ever had. Outpost Cafe and Firehouse BBQ are still generally as good as they’ve ever been, in my opinion. The pizza, while still a terrible deal, is better quality after the Victoria’s renovation and now (reportedly) with the new style at Pizza Parlor.
If you compare the food quality to even 2019, it’s still night and day in my opinion. It’s tough to point to something that was marginally better just a couple of years ago and argue that it’s evidence of systemic, long-term backsliding, I think.
There isn't one currently. If people want to discuss the potential addition of one though, @warfelg moved the convo here:
Could be a combination of things honestly. Admittedly, I am not close enough to KD to know for sure. I am just looking at it from a business perspective and explaining why Cedar Fair and now Six Flags haven't continued investing in the park. If they haven't seen the returns they needed, then to them it's not worth continuing to invest as heavily.
AmyUD06
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How can you seriously argue that the entire Jungle X-pedition refresh, and every ride that came with it, hasn't been "continued investing in the park"?
The lowest crowds I've witnessed was early 2009. However the year had decent stats because after I305 was announced crowds blossomed to possibly higher than any point in 2010. Some other slacker years were 2017 and possibly 2024, each before new coaster.
My opinion is that KD is the most enjoyable park in the world because it consistently underperforms. They don't get the level of investment of the top rated parks but it's insanely good for the numbers it attracts. However seeing the park eerily empty a hundred times and things like SFA closing do cause some concern this can continue, and of course I'd rather see SF figure out how to make money off it than the park go into a holding pattern, close, or be sold to Herschend. I love the dining plan and enjoyed Winterfest but loved the park before any of these things.
The only way KD could compete with BGW in that style would require razing 2/3rds of the park and adding hills. One reason removing their one hill just because it no longer had a ride in it was so disappointing. Also while KD has usually had regular entertainment, a lot of it wasn't very good.
I’m not. I’m speaking to OPs perception of not getting an I305 style investment every year.
Some of these changes are just things being seen company wide though. The entertainment department at really every Six Flags park is small, Knott's being the one park you could say is an exception to that. When it comes to summer shows that was probably a cut made by Zimmerman before Reilly took over, you're seeing the same thing happen with Holiday in the Park coming back at the legacy Six Flags properties after disappearing. I know Great Adventure saw a decrease in scope for Freight Fest last year, some of that returning this year. Maybe Haunt follows suit at KD. And of course with the ride count that's a trend we've seen a lot of lately across the chain, and honestly KD didn't loose TOO much when compared to some other properties.
Overall there's just been so much turnover at the corporate level that things are a mess right now operationally chain wide. Now that things have seemingly settled I think we'll get a much better idea of where things are going for these parks. Too early to really tell what Six Flags sees for the future of Kings Dominion.
Yes, when someone comes to a park you need to have a well rounded experience where investment is needed but rides bring the vast majority of people in the door. Have you even seen a billboard or an advertisement listing the great new meals or how they invested in pavers and ripped up the asphalt, of course not. It's about the rides and you better be adding one every couple of years if you want to grow attendance. That is the OP's point.
KD has added three new adult-oriented coasters in the past decade. Comparing to the major legacy CF parks, that’s just one less than CP, one more than KI and CW, and two more than Carowinds and Knott’s received during the same timeframe. OP’s contention that KD has been uniquely neglected by the parent company doesn’t hold water.
OP’s argument is largely based on comparing KD’s current rate of adding attractions to what it was adding during the early 2000s, not to what other parks have been adding lately. It’s a bit of a disingenuous comparison because the entire industry is so different now than it was then. And we have two data points (2000s-era KD and current BGW) that suggest that focusing on investing in rides comes at a direct trade-off to investing in the park experience. I believe they’ve struck a more sustainable balance.
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Good food is part of the park's overall experience. Would you rather spend your whole day in the park eating shitty overpriced food? Parks that are famous for their food tend to brag about it (Epic, Dollywood, Knoebels and Knott's in particular come to mind). I will personally go out of my way to eat at those parks. I won't go out of my way to eat at a normal SF park. I'll most likely leave and eat at a proper restaurant.
Same with the pavers. People aren't gonna visit a theme park specifically because the pathways look nice, but it helps with the presentation. One thing that stood out to me at SFMM was how bad the pavement looked. It shows a lack of care. If you can't keep your paths looking today where else is the park making cuts?
I used to eat a wawa hoagie in the parking lot of Six Flags Great Adventure every visit, and I know that's something that used to be pretty common. But now I'm spending money at Granny's ever since it got that massive renovation. I have a prestige pass so I get a discount but that's still $16 worth of revenue that Six Flags beforehand wouldn't get from me. Apply that to everyone who is now choosing to eat inside the park during their visit and it adds up fast.
This might be the most idiotic rant about Kings Dominion I’ve ever read. Uh, Kings Dominion is getting new rides, new live shows (8 of them this year) and has been getting much upgraded restaurants and venues since they hired an Executive Chef! In the last FIVE years they received Tumbili and Rapterra. Grizzly was re-tracked. That’s maintenance. If you think that Rapterra is worst than “the big rides - Anaconda and Shockwave”, you are delusional. The #1 most ridden coaster in the park is Rapterra. You have no idea who the land is being sold to. They don’t need it. They have plenty of room for expansion. They are well aware of their electrical needs. They at one point had more launch coasters using more electricity than any other park on the east coast. You ABSOLUTELY cannot rationally say that it’s been clear since 2015 that Kings Dominion was not valued. Cedar Fair has continually invested in it. It was the first park in the chain to have an executive chef in order to improve the food. One can eat in Kings Dominion even if they need gluten free, are vegetarian or even vegan!
Busch Gardens is suffering. The neighborhoods around want no more thrill rides that are loud. They can’t build anything over the tree line with a vibrant color. They have no more land to expand and their parent company is in almost as dire of a situation as Six Flags. Hence the last few years have been refurbishments of existing rides (Darkoaster, Verbolten), family coasters like Big Bad Wolf that stay low to the ground and Rides with a absolutely no theming (looking at you Pantheon!). And, the Drop ride had to go away. Please come with a take that is actually educated and reasonable.
Busch Gardens is suffering. The neighborhoods around want no more thrill rides that are loud. They can’t build anything over the tree line with a vibrant color. They have no more land to expand and their parent company is in almost as dire of a situation as Six Flags. Hence the last few years have been refurbishments of existing rides (Darkoaster, Verbolten), family coasters like Big Bad Wolf that stay low to the ground and Rides with a absolutely no theming (looking at you Pantheon!). And, the Drop ride had to go away. Please come with a take that is actually educated and reasonable.