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RE: Pompeii Hamlet

Pollo's Chariot: God of the Chickens
Tim_O_Brien__The_Chicken_King2.jpg


Yes, Chickenking, this coaster is named just for you ;)

Heck, this way they could even keep the "Man-Eating Chicken" theme from Fear Fair

~Sorry, couldn't help myself :p
 
RE: Pompeii Hamlet

Doc Dollars said:
In the song "Not Gay If It's In a Three-Way," Andy Samberg says of this supposed rule that, "this rule goes back to Ancient Greece," to which Justin Timberlake replies "Talkin' about Caesar!" I think this pretty well sums up the average person's appreciation of the differences.

This is the most bizarre yet perhaps most brilliant way I've ever seen anyone justify an opinion on the internet.
 
RE: Pompeii Hamlet

J0E1 said:
Yes, Chickenking, this coaster is named just for you ;)

Heck, this way they could even keep the "Man-Eating Chicken" theme from Fear Fair

That's about right

maneatingchicken.jpg



[Mod Edit: Spoiler tag added for people with weak stomachs. ~Zachary]
 
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RE: Pompeii Hamlet

Zachary said:
According to James City County's parcel viewer, it's more like this:



There's still a very good amount of flat land between San Marco and Loch Ness Monster. If the buildings in my concept were shifted a little towards Nessie and a custom GCI built that could utilize the terrain in the ravine, I'm pretty sure the general concept is still perfectly feasible. Also, note that Escape from Pompeii's show building is built into the next ravine over. The park is clearly pretty talented at building over massive bits of rough land.

Yo, Evel Knievel fits into that footprint pretty damn well without:

a) encroaching on LNM
b) encroaching on Pompeii
c) requiring major land work
d) opening up any of the hidden areas to passersby

That covers quite a bit of worries I have with that area as a future spot for a roller coaster. Also of note Evel Knievel is about 2,700 feet long, which really depending on use of space I can see a coaster between 2,400-2,800 feet being tossed in there. If BGW is insane and uses that ravine (and Pompeii gets kai-bashed) I think this coaster can push about 3,600-3,800 feet in length.
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet


Thanks for the phenomenal response everyone! Seems like you people like brainstorming additions just as much as I do. Lets see if lightning can strike twice. Whether you want it or not, I'm back with another crazy idea. Enjoy!





The Underlying Concept
Though there's not much I enjoy about Griffon, the one thing I can point to and say "Hey, that's a really great idea" is Griffon's "mini-hamlet". Technically Griffon's village is still part of the park's larger French hamlet but it has a very distinct architectural style and overall feel when compared to the rest of Aquitaine. I feel small sub-areas like Griffon's can provide the opportunity for a stronger overall atmosphere and theme than an e-ticket alone can. So, with that in mind, I set my sights on what is, by far, the worst themed coaster at the park: Apollo's Chariot.


The Problems
The first problem is that for a coaster themed to something as exciting as flying Apollo's fiery chariot across the sky, walking up to and entering Apollo's queue is a very uninspiring experience. First you walk into an awful hamlet which holds no purpose other than to funnel guests to this coaster. Next you walk past a ton of ugly shops and games operated by bored games personnel who clearly haven't seen a customer in some time. Finally you get to Apollo's Chariot's entrance where you walk into a faded flat ride pavillion with a switchback queue that stretches as far as the eye can see. Eventually you make your way past a few TVs advertising QuickQueues and Dining with Elmo tickets and into the ride's station. What's the ride's story? What hamlet is it located in? What relevance does this have to anything else in the area? All fantastic questions without answers.

The second problem isn't directly related to Apollo's Chariot but is a byproduct of its location. I'm pretty sure we've all come to the conclusion that Festa Italiana is in desperate need of a renovation or, preferably, a complete overhaul and retheme. Because I (and I'm sure many others) would hate to see Apollo's Chariot rethemed and renamed, many people have suggested converting Festa into Greece so that Apollo's Chariot wouldn't need to be changed (Apollo kept his name across ancient Greece and ancient Roman cultures). While this is a reasonable solution, I think we can do better. I'd like to see a new hamlet which pushes the park in an entirely new direction and while Greece could do that, I feel the park would be more likely to toss in a few statues of Greek gods and call it a day. So, what country would I like to see represented? Well, many people have been making very good points in favor of a Spanish hamlet as of late but Alpenghost and I have been thinking in a different direction. More on that later though. This post is going to focus on my concept for an Apollo's Chariot mini-hamlet, not a larger Festa Italia retheme though, ideally, they would happen hand-in-hand with eachother.

Thirdly, San Marco has a problem that I think Apollo's Chariot can fix. San Marco is a very, very large hamlet and though a theoretical Pompeii-themed hamlet could bring some more action into the area, San Marco is still lacking a true e-ticket attraction. Quite honestly, it's amazing to me that San Marco has gone without one for as long as it has. It's time to fix it.

Clearly Apollo's Chariot is a broken attraction surrounded by broken hamlets in a broken area of the park. It and its surroundings are all just half-assed attempts at the quality and immersive atmosphere you can find throughout the other half of the park. With any luck, I may have a plan to help fix it.


The Plan
Armed with the general concept of a mini-hamlet dedicated to Apollo's Chariot and the dream of a true e-ticket attraction in San Marco, I opened up Paint.net and started brainstorming. What I came up with, quite honestly, impressed me. I wasn't completely happy with my Pompeii concept but this one on the other hand, this one I love. Anyway, I give you, Festa Apollo, my nickname for a theoretical mini-hamlet dedicated to Apollo's Chariot.


Apollo%20Mini-Hamlet%20v1.png


Points of Interest
  1. Apollo's Chariot's New Queue Building: After over a decade of using an old ride pavilion as a queue area, Apollo's Chariot finally gets the queue it has always deserved. As you await your turn to take Apollo's Chariot for a spin you are introduced to the story of Phaëton, Apollo's stubborn son who attempted to drive Apollo's chariot across the sky which, in turn, resulted in his death. Will you be able to control Apollo's fiery horses and successfully complete the journey?*
  2. New Game Booth: Just a simple game booth to make up for the ones that are being removed.
  3. Apollo's Chariot On-Ride Photos & Gifts: Pretty self-explanatory. Nothing too special. Could probably use a better name.
  4. Relocated Basketball Game: Yes, I moved the basketball game. I hate the thing just as much as the next guy but it makes the park boatloads of cash and there's no way to really justify removing it. Instead of having it shoehorned into whatever country replaces Festa, I decided that it fit better here than anywhere else in the park. I did my best to make it a little less in-your-face as well.
  5. New Bridge: Again, pretty self explanatory. The current signage outside of Apollo would all be moved to the San Marco side of the bridge to make it perfectly clear that Apollo's Chariot is in that direction and that it's basically the only thing down there.
*Yes, I know, the story is a bit convoluted. If anyone wants to help, please do. It's well after midnight. :p


What It Fixes
  • The new area and queue building provides one of the park's greatest attractions with the opportunity to finally have a storyline and atmosphere all its own.
  • It enables the free use of the rest of the current Festa Italia hamlet. No longer are the possible themes limited by Apollo's Chariot's name and theme.
  • San Marco will finally have an e-ticket attraction- something to give people a reason to spend time in and appreciate the hamlet instead of just using it as a path to get from Banbury to Oktoberfest.
  • By moving a game booth and the basketball court out of Festa and into a more discreet location it should reduce the overly commercial feel that Festa currently suffers from and thus, remove these things from the list of things Festa's replacement will need to house.
  • Lastly, it provides a place where the Festa Italia theme can flourish long after the god-awful hamlet itself is bulldozed to the ground and I frolic in its rubble. A festival theme is much more fitting for a small plaza than it is for an entire hamlet.


So, what do you all think? Any good?
 

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RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

Well, I can go ahead and say that I know for sure this is never going to happen, like ever.

Firstly, the idea and concept itself is very impressive but still holds a few key issues, that for a business like the park, that would not work so well.

Now, honestly the main and only reason people go into Festa Italia is for Apollo's Chariot or Roman Rapids. I do want to explain a few factors that prove this point. Currently next to Splashus Maximus, you will see a blue tent being renovated for a Coke shop/enlarged snack stand. Previously in that spot, there were a handful of games. The lack and flow of traffic in the area past the Turkish Delight was so miserable that the games had suffered from lack of profit. The space was eventually closed off for storage and one game blocking the huge wall. Said game was removed for lack of profit as well and replaced by those ever so popular claw machines temporarily. My point is, the park sees a lack of profit in that area of the park, that they removed labor wasting games. My opinion is that they are enlarging the snack stand because lets all just face it, we have to have our snacks and Coke. No matter how expensive we have to have it, and in that particular area that is the only location with snacks nearby. I feel as though this snack stand may increase traffic flow slightly just because people will travel to the closest snack stand for a drink or snack. BUT, the point is unless it is a busy day, everything past the Turkish Delight is a dying limb to the park.

How that is relavant is that, if you separate Apollo, you basically cut off the reason why people even think of going there. Yes, this would make finding Apollo easier; however you kill practically a whole hamlet because it has nothing major to draw people in except Roman Rapids which only draws crowds in the summer.

Also, I highly doubt it makes business sense to spend the money to construct a new pathway and bridge to Apollo. It is just too much and then to add to it, you have one bridge just feet away from another. It looks like your making more work out of it than you have to and in real life, lets be honest, it would look really weird and awkward.

The only issue is separating Apollo from Festa, and you really don't add it to San Marco. You have the DaVinci's Gardens right there blocking Apollo from San Marco for one, and second, people will still just ride the coast and move on. Put a ride in the heart of San Marco and they will stay around the hamlet a little longer.

Now to really see you implement some of your ideas, I suggest that yes a new queue can be built to help with the theme for the ride and then some form of a overhaul for the rest of Festa, which may or may not happen, but that is really all that is needed.

Honestly, to make Festa more italian, I would get rid of all the metal tents and have columns that hold up a roof similar to those of Greek origin as well as possibly adding trees? The one thing that is area really lacks is trees, BGW's secret weapon; or perhaps do much more with landscaping in some fashion or another.

Perhaps I will create my own concept now :p Anyways, I still think some of your ideas are feasible Zach, while others just aren't worth is business and aesthetically eye pleasing wise.
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

Technically, Pompeii is San Marco's e-ticket ;)

I do like the idea. I especially like the name. My only problems are:

1 - Seriously, I hate the basketball game and can't support its inclusion on principle.

2 - The park's entire Italy area already feels disjointed with Pompeii on the other side of the bridge. I wonder if this would make that particular problem worse by now essentially making Pompeii AND Apollo "Italy islands" separate from San Marco proper.

3 - One dead end (current Festa) is bad enough, but if the new Festa Apollo is closed off from whatever the hamlet becomes, that would be two dead ends in the area. So that's a little weird.

I honestly am becoming more convinced that what Festa needs is just a better Italian re-theme. Anything besides Italy back there in that dead end is going to seem very strange, especially with the "Apollo problem" being what it is. I see why you'd want to set Apollo aside and work with the rest of the area, but again, you end up then with two major Italy-themed attractions sitting as islands disconnected from the park's actual Italian area and then you've got this small little non-Italy village tucked back in a dead end.

Still, you've succeeded in getting me interested in the "conceptualizing" aspect of fanship (something I usually steer clear of because of its depressing fruitlessness) and I'll probably produce my own solution to this problem sometime today!
 
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RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

While it's a good refresh of Apollo, cutting it off from Festa makes no sense. If this was done, it would have to be done at the same time as total Festa refresh.
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

I think you are missing the reason for him splitting it off from Festa. It did state that this change would come with a complete and total change of Festa from Festa to something else entirely.
 
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Re: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

It depends on what that Festa layout is then. Griffon's isn't that bad, but there's also nothing next to it like with this.
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

Zachary, didn't we discuss inverting Apollo's station entirely?
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

I saw that...but what I'm saying is that Festa itself is a dead end. If Apollo is now also a dead end, that's two in the same area.

If his Festa remodel included a link out of the hamlet into San Marco, then this whole thing would be a *better* idea, but it would still leave at least one dead end at Apollo, which, while not terrible, is also not ideal.

Love the Pompeii concept, but I still think we can find a better answer to the Festa problem; one which we can all be both (a) happy about and (b) ultimately never see come to fruition.
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

I'm not 100% behind splitting Apollo off, I still think a Greek Hamlet is the best option, and eventually there would be a third crossing of the Rhine to connect to the rumored resort. I would imagine that it would connect to Festa.
 
RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

I worked this up this map up this morning.

Of note:

1. A repositioned traffic circle coming out of Pompeii. Guests would choose here whether to go into San Marco or the rethemed new hamlet (which I would called Festa Apollo and retheme completely to classical Ancient Rome). I believe this provides a much more natural "choosing point" than what is currently there and would help the hamlet to feel more like an equal choice with San Marco and not like an "off-shoot."

2. A new path and bridge connecting San Marco and Festa at the bottom. Currently, this is fenced off.

3. A major new dark ride building. The dimensions of this building are nearly identical to those of DarKastle, so it could house something quality.

4. Zachary's Apollo queue is retained.

Problems/Fixes:

1. Loss of stable land. I guess you could, theoretically, if your heart was set on it....you know...move the new ride building over to where Roman Rapids is. Sigh.

2. Why build a new bridge and demolish an existing one 50 ft away? I think it makes for a better choosing point, and helps give the hamlets equal weight, psychologically. It flows better. Still, if you wanted to be a cheap-o, then yes, you could retain the existing bridge.

Anyway, I think this solves a lot of the problems that currently exist in the area. But you must retheme the hamlet completely in order for it to work. No cheap vinyl tents this time.
 

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RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

If Festa Italia keeps an Italian theme, ^ is definitely the way to do it. Great job Doc! I do fear that the park couldn't do without the stables though and, since there's really nowhere else to put them right now, I think the darkride would have to be built over Roman Rapids. :-/




Party Rocker said:
How that is relavant is that, if you separate Apollo, you basically cut off the reason why people even think of going there. Yes, this would make finding Apollo easier; however you kill practically a whole hamlet because it has nothing major to draw people in except Roman Rapids which only draws crowds in the summer.

That's the idea. Doing this would accompany a full retheme of Festa to something other than Greece and open the door for a new e-ticket near the back of the new hamlet. If Festa keeps its theme or is rethemed to another Italian country, my concept is pointless. If I ever finish part III, you'll see why I'm trying so hard to separate Apollo.

Doc Dollars said:
Technically, Pompeii is San Marco's e-ticket ;)

I can't count seasonal attractions as an e-ticket. In the spring, fall, and now winter they're completely pointless really.

Doc Dollars said:
2 - The park's entire Italy area already feels disjointed with Pompeii on the other side of the bridge. I wonder if this would make that particular problem worse by now essentially making Pompeii AND Apollo "Italy islands" separate from San Marco proper.

I actually feel themed "islands" are a better way to theme areas than, say, what has been done in Oktoberfest. In Oktoberfest you have a massive bustling eatery, an evil castle, a ton of carnival games, a German tours depot, and a few flat rides. Each major attraction has its own theme however none of them blend particularly well with each other. If you shove each inside a bubble they're all very well themed attractions but, because there's basically zero isolation between the attractions, the area has a horrendously disjointed feel. Naturally the best fix for this problem would be if hamlets and their attractions were planned out well in advance in order to make everything flow nicely however, in a park that has been around as long as Busch Gardens Williamsburg, it gets harder and harder to make things flow. In the case of Italy, we currently have Festa Italia (which we all hate), Pompeii (which takes up a massive plot and is completely separated from San Marco but still can't really be called a hamlet), and San Marco (a great looking hamlet without an e-ticket). As far as I can tell it would be impossible to merge these themes into a single coherent hamlet so, in my opinion, the next best thing to do is to give each major attraction it's own bubble. Each bubble fits the Italian theme but none of them are forced to fit with each other.

Doc Dollars said:
3 - One dead end (current Festa) is bad enough, but if the new Festa Apollo is closed off from whatever the hamlet becomes, that would be two dead ends in the area. So that's a little weird.

To be honest, I'd prefer dead ends to a mismatched collage of different themes.
 
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RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

Nothing in-depth at the moment but if I ran the park, this is what the next decade would look like.

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RE: Zachary's Reimagining of Italy: Pompeii Hamlet & Apollo Mini-Hamlet

Just saying, If all that happens in the next 10 years, I think we might reach the golden age of BGW..
 
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