Project 2022: Tumbili, Reptilian, Arachnidia, & Jungle X-Pedition

[Mushroom]

Of course, I-305 was a misstep given it didn't seem to have a solid long-term impact to attendance, but even though it's had its own issues it wasn't the first time most of the ride systems have been used by Intamin meaning they can fabricate new parts relatively inexpensively.

I think this has to do with the changes in Cedar Fair management over the years. There hasn't been one monolithic "Cedar Fair" running the park since they bought the Paramount parks in 2006, but rather there have been distinct eras. When CF took over KD, the company was still under the control of Dick Kinzel, the company's longtime CEO who was very much focused on coasters above all else; KD's focus was still on raw thrill rides - which you can see with the addition of Dominator, I305, and a handful of other rides in just a few years - but little else to improve the park experience.

When Kinzel retired, he was replaced with Matt Ouimett, who was the former president of Disneyland Resort. I think Ouimett's longtime experience with Disney explains why Ouimett, around 2013, tried to shift the company's focus towards more rounded parks with more emphasis on memorable experiences than on pure thrills. Richard Zimmerman's tenure as CEO has been more or less an extension of Ouimett's philosophy, though I think he has "fleshed out" the philosophy more to take it from a peripheral goal of the company to a primary focus.

Tying this back to the freespin, I think this helps explain additions like the freespin over other, more "experimental" additions. CF isn't focused on breaking records and shattering barriers with their rides anymore. The freespin is a "safe" choice in that it's been tried-and-true at multiple Six Flags parks, and it's a crowed pleaser (even if it's not so much an enthusiast pleaser). Sprinkle in (hopefully) some theming and this ride is very much in line with CF's direction as of late.

 

[bill s]

^^-- I-305 was part of a 5 year plan, just with the coaster in the first year of it, which they were really needing. KD needs to have the edge coaster-wise, they know they can't compete without it.

I contend that I-305 has had an extremely good long-term effect on attendance -- it was the short term, year of opening surge that lacked. But if you compare it to the year before, it looks a lot better. Same with Timbers. In both cases they waited until the park really needed an upgrade instead of expanding rapidly. Then CF grows attendance in other ways that bring in more money. It's not ideal for enthusiasts but they still get great stuff, just slowly. Of course I'm more interested in what happens before I get too old and feeble to walk to it and ride it.

 

[b.mac]

I contend that I-305 has had an extremely good long-term effect on attendance -- it was the short term, year of opening surge that lacked. But if you compare it to the year before, it looks a lot better. Same with Timbers. In both cases they waited until the park really needed an upgrade instead of expanding rapidly. Then CF grows attendance in other ways that bring in more money. It's not ideal for enthusiasts but they still get great stuff, just slowly. Of course I'm more interested in what happens before I get too old and feeble to walk to it and ride it.

Ridership dropping in 2011 and 2012 across all but 5 rides in the park completely flies in the face of this suggestion.

The largest instances of growth in Kings Dominion since Cedar Fair acquired the park has been when they've made additions that benefit families and group events, and even the falls from those years in 2013 and 2018 still outstrip where the park was at prior to those additions.

 

[Jonesta6]

There's also the suggestion that since the forces of I-305 have been known to cause blackouts, many average guests may skip riding it - doesn't help that it's located down a dead-end instead of incorporated into a loop.

But I'm curious about the perception of the FreeSpin being a one-way ticket to nausea-land. IRL I don't think that'd be the actual reality of the ride experience, but I can also see lots of guests avoid it because it looks way too intense.

 

[rswashdc]

There's also the suggestion that since the forces of I-305 have been known to cause blackouts, many average guests may skip riding it - doesn't help that it's located down a dead-end instead of incorporated into a loop.

But I'm curious about the perception of the FreeSpin being a one-way ticket to nausea-land. IRL I don't think that'd be the actual reality of the ride experience, but I can also see lots of guests avoid it because it looks way too intense.

I would surmise that I305 being far away from the main loops is a far bigger problem then how intense the ride is. There are plenty of guests that will go on most anything, but if you put the ride out of the way and hard to find, they just aren't going to go there or may only go once while they are in that part of the park.

Regarding the Freespin being nauseating, I'm sure there will be plenty of takers who either don't feel nausea or don't care if they do feel it.

 

[b.mac]

At least from my experience being around Joker at Great Adventure once the novelty dies off it becomes a rather popular line for having a short line.

It'll be one of those rides that guests will ride multiple times in a row because the line is short. On the flip side though, Kings Dominion is a different market than Great Adventure and has different crowd flow and crowd behavior. It could be the same, it could be like Volcano and always have a line for whatever reason. We won't know until it opens.

 

[Crunchewy]

For the record. I have so far avoided Joker at SFGA, only once *almost* riding it, for fear it would make me sick. I don't know if it would, but it sure looks like it might. But, I do plan to eventually get on it or the KD offering at some point. I want to find out.

 

[b.mac]

If you cannot tolerate rocking motion you're gonna have a bad time.

If you aren't affected much by odd motions, you might not even realize you're upside down 100+ feet off the ground.

 

[Crunchewy]

If you cannot tolerate rocking motion you're gonna have a bad time.

If you aren't affected much by odd motions, you might not even realize you're upside down 100+ feet off the ground.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have a bad time. But coaster counts. Ugh.

 

[bill s]

I feel less sick after a 4D than after Finnigan's or Tempesto. I will probably never get on a frisbee ride again, and wouldn't ride a Larson loop for less than $1000. The flipping sensation itself could hardly be more like The Crypt. It's somewhat fun, mostly due to the odd movements and height.

Ridership dropping in 2011 and 2012 across all but 5 rides in the park completely flies in the face of this suggestion.

The largest instances of growth in Kings Dominion since Cedar Fair acquired the park has been when they've made additions that benefit families and group events, and even the falls from those years in 2013 and 2018 still outstrip where the park was at prior to those additions.

I don't even know where to look for those numbers; I'm going by the number of times in the park in June 2009 I realized there wasn't another soul in sight. Volcano rerides. And being reminded of that in June 2017. Although 2009 wasn't a wash, there was a big sudden crowd increase in fall 2009 after the I305 announcement -- all the more reason to believe that the attention that ride brings is larger than the ridership suggests.

I'm not sure what you're saying about 2013 and 2018. If those were good times for the park, I include the latest coasters as a factor.

 

[horsesboy]

I feel less sick after a 4D than after Finnigan's or Tempesto. I will probably never get on a frisbee ride again, and wouldn't ride a Larson loop for less than $1000. The flipping sensation itself could hardly be more like The Crypt. It's somewhat fun, mostly due to the odd movements and height.



I don't even know where to look for those numbers; I'm going by the number of times in the park in June 2009 I realized there wasn't another soul in sight. Volcano rerides. And being reminded of that in June 2017. Although 2009 wasn't a wash, there was a big sudden crowd increase in fall 2009 after the I305 announcement -- all the more reason to believe that the attention that ride brings is larger than the ridership suggests.

I'm not sure what you're saying about 2013 and 2018. If those were good times for the park, I include the latest coasters as a factor.

I think the other factor is where KD was reputation wise going into those family additions. They already had a pretty high trill ride following at some point you just stop drawing more by adding to to the demographic cause they are already there. So then they add on the family side which they were lagging behind since the Nickelodeon departure that equals a big draw and spike but at some point they will start to see that trill demographic gone especially with BGW adding several coaster and other big draws. It wouldn't surprise me to see KD and BGW switch back in a few years and see added kids and family stuff at BGW and a big coaster at KD it's just the circle of park marketing.

 

[mwhinva]

I think this has to do with the changes in Cedar Fair management over the years. There hasn't been one monolithic "Cedar Fair" running the park since they bought the Paramount parks in 2006, but rather there have been distinct eras. When CF took over KD, the company was still under the control of Dick Kinzel, the company's longtime CEO who was very much focused on coasters above all else; KD's focus was still on raw thrill rides - which you can see with the addition of Dominator, I305, and a handful of other rides in just a few years - but little else to improve the park experience.

When Kinzel retired, he was replaced with Matt Ouimett, who was the former president of Disneyland Resort. I think Ouimett's longtime experience with Disney explains why Ouimett, around 2013, tried to shift the company's focus towards more rounded parks with more emphasis on memorable experiences than on pure thrills. Richard Zimmerman's tenure as CEO has been more or less an extension of Ouimett's philosophy, though I think he has "fleshed out" the philosophy more to take it from a peripheral goal of the company to a primary focus.

Tying this back to the freespin, I think this helps explain additions like the freespin over other, more "experimental" additions. CF isn't focused on breaking records and shattering barriers with their rides anymore. The freespin is a "safe" choice in that it's been tried-and-true at multiple Six Flags parks, and it's a crowed pleaser (even if it's not so much an enthusiast pleaser). Sprinkle in (hopefully) some theming and this ride is very much in line with CF's direction as of late.

This hit the bulls-eye for me. The Cedar Fair management/operational philosophy has evolved since the Paramount Parks purchase under Kinzel. He was more of a "one coaster fits all" approach to the park chain attraction line-up.

After Kinzel retired, CF management took a hard look at the parks and saw that the old Paramount park chain infrastructure was falling apart with the neglect of the parks; especially the last 5-6 years under the Paramount brand. They had a massive undertaking under the last 9-10 years to fix, replace, upgrade a lot of "behind the scenes" stuff that the average park goer would not notice. It has only been over the last few years that CF/KD have been doing things that the average park goer would notice during a visit.

There is also a major difference between Cedar Fair and the old Taft/KECO park chains. Cedar Fair is a park chain by aquisition. The corporate entity does not have any background in building theme parks from scratch. Taft, on the other hand, built three of the five parks from scratch (KI - 1972, KD - 1975, CANWON - 1981). Even Carowinds was heavily molded by Taft because it was only 2 years old when taken over. (Carowinds opened as an independent park in 1973. Ran independently in 1973 and 1974. Taft bought out the park in late 74 or early 75. Operated as a Taft park starting for the 1975 season. CGA was part of the Marriott Great America park chain. Management taken over by Taft in 1985.

Cedar Fair recently has focused on each park in the chain to try to mold it to best fit the market demographics it is in; based on its history and former operational style/philosophy. They have figured out the "One size fits all" does not work for an amusement business entity such as Cedar Fair.

For KD, I am hearing future theming detail throughout the park, more focus to entertainment and special, short-term events. Future attractions will be tied to some sort of theme. Look at the theming details for the new 4-D free spin.

 

[RideThroughTime]

It’s opening day...any news?

 

[mtorange]

It’s opening day...any news?

Yes! It looks like shipping labels have been added to the boxes near the construction area. References to “Kroft Industries” and “Livingston and Company” are all over. Anyone recognize these names from elsewhere?

EDIT: Looks like “Livingston” is a reference to a restaurant that was in Safari Village back in the 80s and 90s. You can read more about it here!

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[RideThroughTime]

Interesting, I would guess Kroft Industries is a reference to Lara Croft (Tomb Raider).

 

[mwhinva]

Yes! It looks like shipping labels have been added to the boxes near the construction area. References to “Kroft Industries” and “Livingston and Company” are all over. Anyone recognize these names from elsewhere?

EDIT: Looks like “Livingston” is a reference to a restaurant that was in Safari Village back in the 80s and 90s. You can read more about it here!

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Yep, Livingston was a restaurant / entertainment venue.

What raises an eyebrow for me was the From label, "Kroft Industries". I wonder if that is a play on the old rides manufacturer Anton Schwartzkopt. The King Kobra, Apple Turnover, and Mt. Kilimanjaro Bayern Curve were all Anton's creations.

 

[mwhinva]

Interesting, I would guess Kroft Industries is a reference to Lara Croft (Tomb Raider).

That is a strong possibility too.

 

[warfelg]

Not even announced yet. CF is pathetic. No POV. Year behind in construction. Must be in a bad place.

 

[mtorange]

Not even announced yet. CF is pathetic. No POV. Year behind in construction. Must be in a bad place.

I know it looks bad, but rides aren’t usually announced until around mid-August the year prior to opening. I’m not at all surprised that the park is just beginning their teaser campaign for this attraction.

I will, however, agree that it’s kind of odd that said new attraction is just sitting in the parking lot, so this campaign does feel a bit… anticlimactic.

 

[Zachary]

I know it looks bad, but rides aren’t usually announced until around mid-August the year prior to opening. I’m not at all surprised that the park is just beginning their teaser campaign for this attraction.

I will, however, agree that it’s kind of odd that said new attraction is just sitting in the parking lot, so this campaign does feel a bit… anticlimactic.

He was sneakily referencing someone in the Pantheon thread who has been insisting that SEAS is "pathetic" because Pantheon isn't open yet. Don't blame you for not reading that thread through—it's a dumpster fire.