Project 2022: Pantheon

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I will bow to your infinite wisdom, oh legendary Really More Coming decoder.

No more jokes in this thread everyone.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I will bow to your infinite wisdom, oh legendary Really More Coming decoder.

No more jokes in this thread everyone.  

>Baby cartoon meme

You're really showing me there.

 

[2muchpopcorn]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

My two cents (which are proverbially worthless but...), at that height, this is an Intamin. This park has a long standing tradition of going above and beyond. This isnt a chain lift, its an accelerator, closest one is Kingda ka 5 hours away. Next closest is Cedar Point (both parks which I have been to in the past month). They wowed us with Verbolten, Tempesto, and Invadr (Invadr is incredibly impressive for its height), no one can argue that. They would not put in a $25 million 300+ version of Apollos, thats stupid. The competition at that height is I305, arguably one of the best in the country and at that height, thats what they are going after if it is a coaster. Too tall for flyer. INTAMIN ACCELERATOR and hope and pray it is, Kingda ka rules....

Verbolten didn't wow riders. It failed to place in the Golden Ticket Awards while its Florida counterpart Cheetah Hunt made it on the list. Tempesto didn't wow riders, we joke about it being a flat. InvadR wowed riders. All of the GCI character on a smaller scale. Best return on investment they've had with a new ride, especially hitting Kings Dominion when they were down.

Hoping Xcelerator isn't deemed irreparable at this point, because that would pretty much rule out the spectacular hydraulic launch that set Xcelerator, Storm Runner, Top Thrill Dragster, and Kingda Ka above the rest. If the hydraulic launch isn't an option, Project Madrid will have to be either inversion or airtime focused to distinguish it from I305's focus on pure speed and positive/lateral G's.

Funny you mention Kingda Ka. BGW and Gadv are very comparable parks, but BGW crushes Gadv in every category except Kingda Ka, El Toro, the flat rides, the safari, and the Coke Freestyle machines.

Ever heard of Fury 325? It’s nothing like Apollo.

I fear a BGW B&M Giga would be more like Leviathan, which from what I've heard is inferior to its hyper predecessor Behemoth in every way except size. Could they even fit a Fury-like layout?

1. Intamin accelerators use LSMs now, like Red Force and Taron.

2. The land they have is huge. The could absolutely fit a Fury layout. Only issue is the lift hill placement.

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10/10

Would support dinosaur themed attraction.

Especially since Dinosaurs Alive will probably be leaving the Cedar Fair parks in the upcoming years. KD leaves another opening for BGW to hit.

KD actually confirmed that their Dino's Alive is extinct.

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KD Did not confirm their Dino's Alive was extinct at all. It still has its own page on the website and also on the website it says nowhere that Dino's Alive is extinct. You must be getting KD And KI mixed up

 

[Nicole]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Actually, as we posted a few weeks ago, KD did announce that Dinos Alive will be closing.

So, back on topic...

 

[TerrainHuggr]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I would be very surprised if this is a coaster that crosses the Rhine over to the DF field. That would be a tremendous project and one I don't see BG taking on right now, but then again I don't know. More questions then answers. Other questions intriguing me are where foot traffic will enter and exit the "Madrid" extension. I like it hooking back around to the San Marco square area so you don't have to walk all the way down to the end of Festa Italia just to enter/exit. That would open up Festa Italia as well as the new extension.

 

[2muchpopcorn]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Actually, as we posted a few weeks ago, KD did announce that Dinos Alive will be closing.

So, back on topic...

Oops Sorry! I did not see that post. My dreams of a fast paced GCI for KD could maybe come true. Plus that could mean the removal of that ugly building that hides grizzly

 

[cdchen83]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Ever since the height waiver and area of work was given, I've been thinking of a terrain layout with a few fast airtime hills.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Ever since the height waiver and area of work was given, I've been thinking of a terrain layout with a few fast airtime hills.

Yeah I mean the terrain plays a huge part in what ride they would put in.

 

[halfabee]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So... that layout would be awesome.

The more I think about all of the possibilities, the more I hope any potential monster coaster would/will feature a conventional lift or cable lift. Tall rides that only achieve the top 50% of their altitude for literally a few seconds tend to feel "cheap" to me, in that as a rider I don't get to appreciate the height very much during the ride.

Maybe it's just a difference in POV, but to me it is far better to be up in the air for a little bit of time thinking "Damn, I'm getting way up here!" than to be standing at the base of the ride staring at a top hat and saying "I hardly had time to register it, but I was way up there for an incredibly short span of time!" There's an elevated (pun!) sense of being there when you get to actually be there for a while. Somehow it's a greater experience.

 

[2muchpopcorn]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I Totally agree its a greater experience. The view is one of the reasons I love tradional drop towers more than the S&S Ones that start with a launch (with the exception of Hersheys towers because those provide insane airtime when they launch more airtime than other launch ones ive ridden).

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So... that layout would be awesome.

The more I think about all of the possibilities, the more I hope any potential monster coaster would/will feature a conventional lift or cable lift. Tall rides that only achieve the top 50% of their altitude for literally a few seconds tend to feel "cheap" to me, in that as a rider I don't get to appreciate the height very much during the ride.  

Maybe it's just a difference in POV, but to me it is far better to be up in the air for a little bit of time thinking "Damn, I'm getting way up here!" than to be standing at the base of the ride staring at a top hat and saying "I hardly had time to register it, but I was way up there for an incredibly short span of time!"  There's an elevated (pun!) sense of being there when you get to actually be there for a while.  Somehow it's a greater experience.

Agreed for the lift as opposed to launch/top hat.

I'll add that I love both for completely different reasons.

Chainlift: nothing beats the clacking of the safety bar as you go up that hill. Just every last one and as the clacks get less and less when you reach the peak. I do miss the old days of B&M's pre-drop sections that served as a 'teaser'. Chain lifts have that sense of serenity before you plummet down.

Cable lift: I love sitting in the back on a cable lift. The little pop of airtime you get when cresting the hill because of how quickly the front end is flung over to the drop is so much fun. Cable lifts don't offer the same serenity as a chain lift but it does add an extra thrill element as you race up that hill and don't have the time to register how quickly you are getting up there as you look around.

 

[SLC Headache]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I Totally agree its a greater experience. The view is one of the reasons I love tradional drop towers more than the S&S Ones that start with a launch (with the exception of Hersheys towers because those provide insane airtime when they launch more airtime than other launch ones ive ridden).

QFT. The Reese's tower felt like it was going to send me over the top, as opposed to just taking me to the top like the S&S towers at Valleyfair and Dorney.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I Totally agree its a greater experience. The view is one of the reasons I love tradional drop towers more than the S&S Ones that start with a launch (with the exception of Hersheys towers because those provide insane airtime when they launch more airtime than other launch ones ive ridden).

QFT. The Reese's tower felt like it was going to send me over the top, as opposed to just taking me to the top like the S&S towers at Valleyfair and Dorney.

Off topic, but the reason Hershey's drop towers are so good and underrated is location. They aren't the tallest drop towers around, but that is the single highest point in the park, and everything around it goes downhill so it gives off the sensation of being much higher than you are.

It's one thing I worry about the peak height location here. I think they did it to minimize visual impact to surrounding areas, and I get that. But I think that the impact of being up that high might not be as great because it's not the highest parcel of land in the park. Of course this post could be a moo point (FRIENDS humor there) if the first drop looks down at the Rhine and goes a little closer to it than expected.

rant:
Which....I got a bone to pick with a youtube coaster enthusiast. There's one out there that does coaster fights and reviews of rides, and he always gives bonus points to drops that turn or go into tunnels. I don't get that. Like to me the drop of Skyrush is no where near as great as Apollo's drop or Phantom Revenge's drop. I think the water at the bottom of Apollo is visually on and off ride much more stunning than Skyrush's twist, and Phantom's just "when does this end" drop is my favorite on any ride I've been on, because you hit the first turn and feel like you are still dropping for a while.
/rant

 

[Nicole]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

For those who have no seen it, over the weekend I compiled and posted the Project Madrid Index requested by the Advisory Panel.

I have included two sets of links:
1. Posts sharing data that are directly correlated to Project Madrid.
2. Posts sharing data that are useful to the Project Madrid discussion.

I will continue to update the Index, as more hard data becomes available.

 

[2muchpopcorn]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

With the Additions of Wave Breaker and Now Infinty Falls. Is it possible SW Could have formed a partnership to Intamin? Its really a crazy idea but ive just thought about it. Once again its highly unlikely but could it mean something for this project?

 

[Cthru3]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

In another post about Gwazi a forum member mentioned how the wooden coasters are more of a "corporate game". Maybe a struggling SWP&E could be taking the reins from individual parks. They could be told to build a ride they normally wouldn't or even told to shut down an expensive to operate ride (Darkcastle). We know nothing yet anything is possible.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

In another post about Gwazi a forum member mentioned how the wooden coasters are more of a "corporate game". Maybe a struggling SWP&E could be taking the reins from individual parks. They could be told to build a ride they normally wouldn't or even told to shut down an expensive to operate ride (Darkcastle). We know nothing yet anything is possible.

While I wouldn't doubt that happens, I feel like SWP&E isn't so hands on. Otherwise Park President is just an empty suit.

Most likely I would bet SWP&E from a corporate level gives parks a X number of years "improvement capital". They can spend up to a certain amount, and with a bigger project, the park likely comes up with 4-5 options and gives the corporate level the options and the approve or deny them.

This is what a master plan comes from. I wouldn't be shocked at all if the next 10-20 years of BGW (barring sale, technology, disaster) is all planned out and everything is already approved with contingency plans put in place and everything. It would make it hard for the corporate level to come in and change things that fast.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Ever since the height waiver and area of work was given, I've been thinking of a terrain layout with a few fast airtime hills.

I don’t understand the formatting of this layout. Where’s the lift hill and station?

 

[Shane]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

In another post about Gwazi a forum member mentioned how the wooden coasters are more of a "corporate game". Maybe a struggling SWP&E could be taking the reins from individual parks. They could be told to build a ride they normally wouldn't or even told to shut down an expensive to operate ride (Darkcastle). We know nothing yet anything is possible.

I think you have something here. I don't know that SEAS said close DarKastle, but I think SEAS says this is your annual maintenance budget and you as a park look at it and say, "well damn, I might have to close my most expensive attraction to operate to stay within these numbers..."

My understanding of the situation was that SEAS basically told BGW they were getting Invadr. Then we see Sesame Place getting this new Gravity Group coaster which to be is all very reminiscent of an unusual group of projects that SEAS undertook a couple of years ago and in case you are forgetting they installed three launched coasters at three of their parks over the course of two years from three manufacturers. Here we see two wood coasters going into two parks by two different manufacturers.

Now I don't know if SEAS is playing the same game that they did with Verbolten, Cheetah Hunt, and Manta West (which many people viewed as an audition of manufacturers for SEAS); or if Gravity Group just came in with a better bid for Sesame Place than GCI did. (I've mentioned this before, but BGW was kinda already locked into GCI with Invadr since corporate wanted the park to reuse as much of Gwazi's as they possibly could from what I have been told)

While I wouldn't doubt that happens, I feel like SWP&E isn't so hands on.  Otherwise Park President is just an empty suit.  

Most likely I would bet SWP&E from a corporate level gives parks a X number of years "improvement capital".  They can spend up to a certain amount, and with a bigger project, the park likely comes up with 4-5 options and gives the corporate level the options and the approve or deny them.

This is what a master plan comes from.  I wouldn't be shocked at all if the next 10-20 years of BGW (barring sale, technology, disaster) is all planned out and everything is already approved with contingency plans put in place and everything.  It would make it hard for the corporate level to come in and change things that fast.

I think the park president has some level of autonomy, but not as much as you might think. Corporate definitely says you are going to install XYZ and then it's up to you and your VP of Design and Engineering to make it happen. Some examples I know of for a fact would be Sesame Street Forest of Fun. That was a corporate directive. The park was going to put it in whether they wanted to or not. They did get to choose the location and got to choose how they themed the area. My understanding was that the park chose not to convert Land of the Dragon's and select a new location, the old, mostly unused petting zoo. John Reilly, who was the Park President at the time, wanted to do some extensive themeing to make that area look very much like a forest... An employee under him thought it was going to be way too expensive to do what he wanted to do and went to corporate and forced them to go the more generic "card board cutout" style of themeing we see there today.

On the other hand we can see how the park has some decision making power when Corporate says you have to put in a Drop Tower, the park decides they don't want to use industry leader Intamin, who is known for making drop towers and instead, ops to go with another manufacturer.

So yes and no, the park president has some say into what is happening in the park and depending on the situation that may be more and in others may be less. There are instances where SEAS wants something and you have to figure out how to make it work in your park.

Your remark about 4-5 options for new attractions I think might be very true but probably closer to 2-3 and those plans also probably get pushed around a bit when Corporate decides they want to reuse Gwazi parts so they can get some return on investment from them.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I think the park president has some level of autonomy, but not as much as you might think. Corporate definitely says you are going to install XYZ and then it's up to you and your VP of Design and Engineering to make it happen. Some examples I know of for a fact would be Sesame Street Forest of Fun. That was a corporate directive. The park was going to put it in whether they wanted to or not. They did get to choose the location and got to choose how they themed the area. My understanding was that the park chose not to convert Land of the Dragon's and select a new location. John Reilly who was the Park President at the time wanted to do some extensive themeing to make that area look very much like a forest... Someone else in under him thought it was going to be way too expensive and went to corporate and forced them to do the more generic "card board cutout" style of themeing we see there today.

On the other hand we can see how the park has some decision making power when Corporate says you have to put in a Drop Tower, the park decides they don't want an Intamin product in their park and ops to go with another manufacturer.

So yes and no, the park president has some say into what is happening in the park and depending on the situation that may be more or less but there are instances where SEAS wants something and you have to figure out how to make it work in your park.

You just put into better words what I was trying to express. In my brief private business end of planning, it typically goes higher ups tell you the new community needs a clock tower, you come back with where, in what phase, and how it will look, and they say yes or try again. I was just trying to express that likely SEAS goes to BGW and says "within 5 years in the new plan we want a drop tower costing no more than $X"; BGW comes back with location, company, specs, and cost; SEAS gets the yes/no final say.

We should be thankful this isn't a SF/CF situation where they order a bunch of clones and force every park to have one.