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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

One (possibly) minor note regarding the image BGW provided in support of the height waiver application.

This sightline image suggests a rather specific width at the "peak" of the attraction. Click to enlarge.

June-2017-Height-Waiver-Height.jpg


Waaaay back in 2013 BGW filed a permit to build a very tall landscaping project, eventually named Tempesto.  In support of their JCC filings they provided a rough visual indicator of the ride's height and breadth as seen from various locations outside the park.

Here are a couple of the resulting images.  Click to enlarge.

Filing-Page-10.jpg


Filing-Page-7.jpg


What I find interesting is the fact they spent some time determining more or less exactly the extremities of the ride's physical structure -- just suitably simplified and abstracted to keep the reveal a secret.

The "low shoulder" on the right of that yellow ride envelope is not a mistake; nor is it some budding Photoshop artist's sophisticated foreshortening of one edge of the ride envelope to give the illusion of dimension.  

Tempesto really is notably shorter on one end than the other.

B7gd05YIYAAgBrZ.jpg


This exact side-on rendering from Discovery Kingdom (alllllmost exactly the same ride) really illustrates it.

superman-ultimate-flight-sixflagsdiscoverykingdom.jpg


And the park decided to reflect that detail in the application.  Looking back, it was a useful clue.

I felt at the time, and still feel, that the park saw this "detail" as a necessary element in a straightforward and honest application to JCC.  (These things are evaluated in retrospect from time to time, and a somewhat misleading application likely causes near-and long-term future trouble.)

Back to 2017... I remain fairly lazy.  Do we have the sightline images from the other 12 locations noted on the current height waiver application?  Do they indicate width?

Personally, I suspect a tower ride would have to show a wider envelope at/near peak height if it included a large rider-bearing conveyance.  ...Whereas a lift peak, top hat, spike, etc. might be suitably indicated to JCC by showing the region of space where the "open lattice-type structure" approaches and then reaches peak height.

One edit: Checking the location of the sightline depicted above, it is farther away from the park than I originally thought.  That is a pretty sizable breadth being depicted in the image from the waiver application.  Hmm...
 
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So if this is a lift coaster where would the lift be?
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

madmax said:
So if this is a lift coaster where would the lift be?

Couple different theories floating, as the utility permits span from Italy and sections near DF's old station. Topping out at 315 feet could have it lifting steep leaving Festa Italia in the direction of DF. If it were to begin in the area of DF, a lift topping out where that purple star is would mean a lot of meandering and other elements before topping out, which is interesting.

Anyone else?
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

halfabee said:
Looking back, it was a useful clue.

I think you might be on to something Halfabee. It never occurred to me to look at the bracket's size as an indicator of exactly how much "skyline" the future structure would take up. The Tempesto bracket compared to the Madrid bracket may reveal some useful hints.
 
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Shane said:
halfabee said:
Looking back, it was a useful clue.

I think you might be on to something Halfabee. It never occurred to me to look at the bracket's size as an indicator of exactly how much "skyline" the future structure would take up. The Tempesto bracket compared to the Madrid bracket may reveal some useful hints.

That bracket does look somewhat like a marker of a larger-gauge track lift hill with the emergency steps and elevator on one side and loose article net on the other...;-P
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

halfabee said:
And the park decided to reflect that detail in the application.  Looking back, it was a useful clue.

I felt at the time, and still feel, that the park saw this "detail" as a necessary element in a straightforward and honest application to JCC.  (These things are evaluated in retrospect from time to time, and a somewhat misleading application likely causes near-and long-term future trouble.)

Did we ever get a "side view" of Tempesto in it's line of sight plans? That can (IMO) give us a better idea for this attraction.

halfabee said:
Back to 2017... I remain fairly lazy.  Do we have the sightline images from the other 12 locations noted on the current height waiver application?  Do they indicate width?

They do, and if someone has the ambition (I might...) they could measure the distance, and knowing the height of where the picture was taken, the height of the 315' mark, assume a 90 degree angle, we could feasibly triangulate how wide that spot is.

halfabee said:
Personally, I suspect a tower ride would have to show a wider envelope at/near peak height if it included a large rider-bearing conveyance.  ...Whereas a lift peak, top hat, spike, etc. might be suitably indicated to JCC by showing the region of space where the "open lattice-type structure" approaches and then reaches peak height.

Don't disagree.

halfabee said:
One edit: Checking the location of the sightline depicted above, it is farther away from the park than I originally thought.  That is a pretty sizable breadth being depicted in the image from the waiver application.  Hmm...

There's quite a few closer IIRC. Another thing we could do is measure the "width" of Apollo and Fury from the same distance as the LOS test was done from (assuming that the width indicated is going to be looking "straight up" the lifthill), and then get a bigger idea of how wide that bracket is.

Again....those measuring things are all assuming they used the same scale in every picture.
 
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Good observation, halfabee; it could very well be a useful clue.

However, I tend to think that the bracket is likely a front view of a lift hill when viewed from US 60. Admittedly, that could be somewhat of confirmation bias, as I ruled out a tower ride based on how close to the Rhine the high point is, and thus I assume that's the top of a lift hill that drops into the Rhine. I think that's all very likely, but of course not confirmed by other data.

Perhaps more telling though, and why I'm glad you pointed out the Tempesto pics, is I remembered the bracketing and side profile of Tempesto. What I didn't remember was that the brackets extended downwards to frame the ride. "Madrid" doesn't do that. Why? The rest of the "attraction" is considerably lower by comparison (or doesn't exist)? Or the rest is lower than 60' (height waiver requirement)? Or the rest is higher than 60', but covered by the waiver? etc.

For some reason, I suspect that if it is a coaster, more than just the high point will be visible. Maybe not high enough or close enough to the park boundaries to be worth framing it, but it's curious. I don't know the guidelines for the pictures, but I'm sure the park would not show any more than necessary to address the waiver requirements...
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

How high would the tallest point be from the Rhine? Could we have a taller drop than the lift like Apollo?
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Very possible if not expected if it interacts with the Rhine.  I envision something similar to how Nessie uses the terrain for extra elevation on the drops. The highest point is further from the river but you are also much higher up. A 350 drop is quite possible if they go very close to the water. However I'm not sure they will go too far down which will close off the river to boat traffic.
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

^^ I’ve heard 330 feet being tossed around. That would make a lot of sense of being low to the ground without being too close to the water. Probably a speed of around 97 mph but if it does go to 350 it will probably be 100 mph!
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Using information learned from this thread, here's a possible layout for a Bolliger and Mabillard Giga with a new area in the Festa Pastures. Track stands a maximum 302 feet above grade at the site of the LOS test resulting in roughly 342 feet above the surface of the Rhine River. The layout utilizes the cove on the Festhaus Park side to allow two 300 foot long speed hills following the main drop and on the return journey permitting cruise boat travel. On No Limits 2, the simulation shows 97 mph maximum and -1g on the speed hill. I did not include The Drachen Fire site as a station because, unless this was a multi-launch coaster, I didn't see it possible.

Ak5zjea.jpg
 
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

AIR said:
Using information learned from this thread, here's a possible layout for a Bolliger and Mabillard Giga with a new area in the Festa Pastures. Track stands a maximum 302 feet above grade at the site of the LOS test resulting in roughly 342 feet above the surface of the Rhine River. The layout utilizes the cove on the Festhaus Park side to allow two 300 foot long speed hills following the main drop and on the return journey permitting cruise boat travel. On No Limits 2, the simulation shows 97 mph maximum and -1g on the speed hill. I did not include The Drachen Fire site as a station because, unless this was a multi-launch coaster, I didn't see it possible.

Ak5zjea.jpg

That hammerhead is a few hundred feet from the Kingsmill neighborhood.

Their collective voices would scream...

jaa7pj5.jpg
 
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Unagi said:
AIR said:
Using information learned from this thread, here's a possible layout for a Bolliger and Mabillard Giga with a new area in the Festa Pastures. Track stands a maximum 302 feet above grade at the site of the LOS test resulting in roughly 342 feet above the surface of the Rhine River. The layout utilizes the cove on the Festhaus Park side to allow two 300 foot long speed hills following the main drop and on the return journey permitting cruise boat travel. On No Limits 2, the simulation shows 97 mph maximum and -1g on the speed hill. I did not include The Drachen Fire site as a station because, unless this was a multi-launch coaster, I didn't see it possible.

Ak5zjea.jpg

That hammerhead is a few hundred feet from the Kingsmill neighborhood.

Their collective voices would scream...

jaa7pj5.jpg

Nice meme from 2009
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

AIR said:
Using information learned from this thread, here's a possible layout for a Bolliger and Mabillard Giga with a new area in the Festa Pastures. Track stands a maximum 302 feet above grade at the site of the LOS test resulting in roughly 342 feet above the surface of the Rhine River. The layout utilizes the cove on the Festhaus Park side to allow two 300 foot long speed hills following the main drop and on the return journey permitting cruise boat travel. On No Limits 2, the simulation shows 97 mph maximum and -1g on the speed hill. I did not include The Drachen Fire site as a station because, unless this was a multi-launch coaster, I didn't see it possible.

Ak5zjea.jpg

So far, your layout isn’t restrained into the utility zones. Unless they expand it, the layout isn’t possible.
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Could they be doing something else to Festhaus Park that's not a roller coaster? A permanent concert theater?
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

AIR said:
Could they be doing something else to Festhaus Park that's not a roller coaster? A permanent concert theater?

No because the theater isn’t 315 feet tall.
 
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RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

madmax said:
AIR said:
Could they be doing something else to Festhaus Park that's not a roller coaster? A permanent concert theater?

No because the theater isn’t 315 feet tall.

The answer is yes, they very well could be.

We honestly don't have any real data to say that the soil tests on either side of the Rhine are connected other than the fact that they are occurring around the same time.
 
RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I personally hope this is not a coaster. That gorgeous view of the railroad trestle crossing the Rhine is my favorite view in the entire park, and to imagine such a serene image marred with hunks of steel track buzzing with coaster trains saddens me.

Many signs point to Project Madrid being a coaster, sure, and (in the short term, at least) giant new coasters pull in more revenue than pretty shots of bridges. But in the opinion of this fan, sacrificing a signature piece of the park's beauty for another scream machine just takes away one more thing that makes Busch Gardens so special.
 
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