Project 2022: Pantheon

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Did anyone else notice that they referred to it as a "potential attraction" at the meeting? I wonder if that means there is some level of uncertainty over whether it will be built or if that is just politically correct talk.

Just talk. Things are frequently referred to as potential until work actually begins.

 

[Shane]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I'd much rather have an Intamin giga than a 2nd B&M "hyper".

B&M Giga coasters may visually look like B&M Hyper coasters, and in the B&M catalog are even still categorized as Hyper coasters, but they are vastly different rides with vastly different experiences. Carowinds and Canada's Wonderland are prime examples of parks that have both and for the most part, the Hyper coasters provide the expected experience of a hyper coaster, and the two Giga Coasters give rides of unrelenting speed as you would expect from a Giga Coaster.

I initially had the same thought as you when these rides were announced, but B&M has done a great job of differentiating the two experiences.

Finally, even it is something mundane like an observation tower, that arguably is still an "attraction" and may be defined by some as "thrilling."  All of this put together, along with the dialog at the board meeting--I can't imagine what it could possibly be other than an attraction.  Question is "what" attraction.   And I keep going back to the contour lines for the balloon test and question why they would put a tower-type attraction at that exact point and make construction more difficult.

Just wanted to give you a little more than a "thanks" as you are completely right. I couldn't agree more.

Also, I wanted to point out that what is considered thrilling by some may be considered boring or gentle to others. If I weren't an enthusiast or a thrill junkie, and I was on that board and BGW presented me with a Starflyer/Windseeker, I would probably think spinning around at 300+ feet above the earth is pretty damn thrilling. That is completely subjective opinion. I think you were making that point as well, but I wanted to elaborate further on it.

Did anyone else notice that they referred to it as a "potential attraction" at the meeting? I wonder if that means there is some level of uncertainty over whether it will be built or if that is just politically correct talk.

I think they use the term potential, because A.) It wasn't yet approved by the board B.)it is not yet built and nothing is for certain until BGW breaks ground C.) just because the waiver is approved, doesn't mean BGW is required to build anything.

 

[Ghost]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So this doesn't really provide any new information, but it's at least somewhat interesting, so I figured I'd share. The FAA has opened up the study for this project for public comment, as it exceeds the normal allowed height for structures in the area in relation to nearby airports.

You can see the FAA filing here:
https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=337054076

And read the Circularization document here:
https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/letterViewer.jsp?letterID=340486002

This is likely the last approval the project needs before it can begin moving forward. I've followed several projects for other parks in the past, and there typically isn't any issue with FAA approval. The only reason this case is being "circularized" is because the FAA currently only allows structures to be up 325 feet AMSL in this area (due to its proximity to the Williamsburg-Jamestown airport) and this one will be 387 feet AMSL. They're basically just doing a study to determine that this new structure won't interfere with any nearby air traffic and typically the end result is just the requirement for special lighting on the highest point, so definitely nothing to worry about.

Once the study is complete (which should be late September), they will probably update the Construction Info section with the Duration of the construction period, and we'll have an idea of what year the project is likely to open.

 

[madmax]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I think they use the term potential, because A.) It wasn't yet approved by the board B.)it is not yet built and nothing is for certain until BGW breaks ground C.) just because the waiver is approved, doesn't mean BGW is required to build anything.

Actually they are required to build something.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I think they use the term potential, because A.) It wasn't yet approved by the board B.)it is not yet built and nothing is for certain until BGW breaks ground C.) just because the waiver is approved, doesn't mean BGW is required to build anything.

Actually they are required to build something.

They aren't. The height waiver now gives them 36 months to break ground on the attraction that will reach 315' above grade. If they do not start in time, they would have to re-apply for all permits.

Permits and waivers are not requirements to build. They all just grant permission to build. I can't tell you how many times I've approved something like this for someone, just to hear 6 months later that it expired and they have decided to not build what we permitted.

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Actually they are required to build something.

Well, that depends on the context of having to build.

IF they wish to take advantage of the waiver approval they have to build (technically, at least start by pulling permits for footers) something that meets the requirements of the application (sight lines, location, etc. and the conditions the board set in their approval) within three years:

Commencement on this project shall commence within 36 months from the date of approval of this Height Limitation Wavier or this waiver shall be void.

They don't have to build anything however.

 

[sono]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Three years would give them ample time to build a new country/village , for a 45th year celebration and a giga coaster would be the icing on the cake.

 

[halfabee]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Lacking any real reason to play devil's advocate at the moment, I will play devil's advocate with myself and argue that is EXACTLY why I should be playing devil's advocate right now. I think I have a good point there, so I guess I'll change my mind and type this out instead of keeping it to myself:

Is the 45th anniversary really that big of a deal, considering that the 50th is relatively close and so momentous? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to time massive expansion plans for a 50th anniversary, if they were going to be tied to an anniversary at all?

I'd think the decision for large capital improvements would be driven much more strongly by corporate's perception of the market and the availability of ample investment funds, the latter of which would seem to be in fairly short supply at the moment -- rather than the by a desire to get the timing right for a 45th anniversary celebration.

And how would they follow up that kind of 45th anniversary when the 50th comes around?

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

And how would they follow up that kind of 45th anniversary when the 50th comes around?

My answer (wish)?

B&M coaster: 2019
Hamlet (Madrid/Spain): 2020 (45th anniversary)
Hamlet (Pick-your-location in Mexico/New Spain): 2015 (50th anniversary)

New Spain? Like I've said, we have France/New France (Canada) after all (and vikings invading Canada for that matter).

Spain/New Spain would probably be a pretty good draw/marketing move I would think--no disrespect to Lichtenstein or any other European country that could inspire a Hamlet.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Lacking any real reason to play devil's advocate at the moment, I will play devil's advocate with myself and argue that is EXACTLY why I should be playing devil's advocate right now. I think I have a good point there, so I guess I'll change my mind and type this out instead of keeping it to myself:

Is the 45th anniversary really that big of a deal, considering that the 50th is relatively close and so momentous? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to time massive expansion plans for a 50th anniversary, if they were going to be tied to an anniversary at all?

I'd think the decision for large capital improvements would be driven much more strongly by corporate's perception of the market and the availability of ample investment funds, the latter of which would seem to be in fairly short supply at the moment -- rather than the by a desire to get the timing right for a 45th anniversary celebration.

And how would they follow up that kind of 45th anniversary when the 50th comes around?

*interlocks fingers, pushes arms out to crack knuckles*

Ok some counter arguments:
So opening these things as a 50th anniversary gift to yourself would be nice. But how much would that overshadow the actual anniversary?

The 50th is also 8 years (7.5 really if you count this season as 'over') off. Would you really want to sit on something that big for 8 years? Let's say this attraction is built without a hamlet. How much do you risk a DF situation where the ride is kinda isolated, not a whole lot of draw to the area?

I think you would want all of this done by 2020 (45th) and make a loose connection there. Talk about how it's been 45 years.

Then the big 5-0.....that's when you come out with your next 8th coaster (or 9th depending on Tempesto). Find a really unique coaster to build, or you revive DF and have it on the park at that point. But a huge coaster on the 50th might overshadow what being open for 50 years means. I would think for the 50th they would want to do some summer long events. Fireworks more often, revive some 1975 things.

One cool thing I always thought some park should do for a big anniversary: "Opening" day. On the actual opening day of the (May 16th) park have everything be what the original price was. Have a ceremony at the main gate. Have some things around or set up display boards with pictures of what the area looked like.

Ophf I got off track there a bit.

Basically, I would rather see them really celebrate the 50th by focused on events with the park as a whole, some small 'gifts' to itself, and enjoy what you are. Do all your expanding before then, and building bigger rides. It also gives them prolonged "exposure" because even if you do the new hamlet and coaster in 2020, by the time the excitement dies down, you've hit the 50th anniversary and your just riding a tidal wave of people being excited about you.

 

[sono]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

2020 is the 150th anniversary of Cedar Point. A perfect reason for Busch Gardens to celebrate their 45th to try and steal some of that thunder

 

[TrevorBondi]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Yes because Busch Gardens Williamsburg and Cedar Point are direct competitors..

 

[sono]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

You're oh so right. They're not direct competitors, but if someone from out of town had to make a choice, I'm pretty sure Busch would want to be chosen.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

They're both completely different parks 9 hours away from one another. Back on topic?

Yes please.

I keep coming down to the Starflyer/Coaster debate. I see the pros for both:
~Starflyer - Not incredibly expensive. Park only has 1 tower ride. If they are making a new Hamlet a "soft" opening big ride would be more ideal than another coaster.

~Coaster - Would have major pull for a new themed Hamlet. Round out the collection on property nicely. Opens a new hamlet with a bang and major interest.

Cons for both:
~Starflyer - Putting it that close to the edge of a drop off would mean some major money in a solid base. Machtower already rotates for a 360* view. A tower as a starting point of a hamlet wouldn't bring max excitement.

~Coaster - Does SEAS have the funds to really make it happen. If there isn't a hamlet and it's on it's own could we see another DF "hard to get to" situation.

I dunno....I can really see both sides of this discussion. I really keep leaning coaster, because just thinking about how similar MachTower and a starflyer would be kinda be repetitive. A tower ride that circles as it goes up? Hmmm. And it kinda wouldn't make sense to have something to give you a view of the park on some of the lowest elevation property. That just....there's 2-3 things I'm really struggling to put together and add up to a Starflyer.

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

What if they move Tempesto to that area and raise it 200 ft?

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

What if they move Tempesto to that area and raise it 200 ft?

Why do you hate us so much? lol

 

[Jpineda96]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So apparently someone heard a guide from the tram say that come back in 2020 because they are building a roller coaster twice the size of apollo made by the same people. Idk how legit this is but I have a feeling the hamlet of Madrid will debut in 2019 and coaster in 2020 for their 45th anniversary.

 

[wombat96]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Someone at the register at Marco Polo's Marketplace told me Spain will open in 2019 and in 2020 Dragon Challenge will be moved to Busch Gardens along with dueling B&M giga coasters to create four coasters dueling called Matador.

Now you're probably thinking this is crazy but, Walt Disney World has their 50th in 2021 so it makes sense that they'll try to want to steal some guests from the mouse.

Also, I heard from someone at Trappers InvadR is being RMC'd in 2024 can someone add to this?

 

[VonDerrick]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

From experience, front line team members are the worst sources, usually providing nothing but employee rumors and exaggerated half-truths.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

From experience, front line team members are the worst sources, usually providing nothing but employee rumors and exaggerated half-truths.

I swear when these things start happening, these Ride Ops and other "out in front" employees are told to just troll people who ask anything. I know when Skyrush was built, every employee in the Comet Hollow area of Hersheypark was told if anyone asked to just play stupid and tell people that they had to go to one of the fake websites set up by the people at Hersheypark's PR team to find out more (of course they didn't say it was fake, just said go to www.whateveritwas.com). So it wouldn't shock me if these people were told "hey just make up whatever if someone asks you".