Project 2022: Pantheon

[Unagi]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

How about a 300 foot version of the balloon ride at Disney Springs. I just don't think this is a roller coaster. I think the balloon ride would be a classier ride versus a Star Flyer and something unique for the park.

There's a reason the Disney Springs balloon is outside of the parks...

It's extremely low capacity and they wanna charge people to ride it. The attraction wouldn't be a good addition at all.

 

[jornor]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Give us B&M

 

[Merboy]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Maybe it really is Spain and they'll create a lovely overlook on the river. <3

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Give us B&M

^ Yes. Add VR, and the running of the bulls theme @warfelg & I mentioned earlier. "Matador Unleashed."

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

First huge bit of info tonight:

• Preliminary Project Madrid site work has already begun.

The particularly astute may be able to spot a few small things on site, but, right now at least, most things should still be able to fly under the radar pretty easily. It is happening though. I have seen proof.

Hmm interesting. I'm going to guess the work or stuff that's flying under the radar isn't the balloon test. Most likely going on in the trees and spots we can't see without really looking from the train?

Second huge bit of info:

• The project area is larger than previously anticipated.

We know something is happening between Festa Italia and the Rhine River. I now have reason to believe that the Project Madrid site will be large enough to impact the Rhine itself. In fact, there is a small (but noteworthy) chance that it (whatever it is) could cross the Rhine. Let that sink in for a moment...

If I weren't dealing with such a solid source, I'd not believe what I just typed either. There could be a completely innocent explanation for it—maybe they're just running more utilities to Festa Field over/under the Rhine. Right now, I don't know. What I do know though is that Project Madrid keeps getting more and more intriguing...

This one I feel far far more interesting. Big enough to impact the Rhine? Possibly going to be something that crosses the Rhine?

Running more utilities is kinda interesting, a major letdown, but there has to be enough on both sides of the Rhine right? Festa Field from Italy, the other side from the remains from Drachen.

I'm going a wild guess/prediction/idea/hope out there:
Would they ever redo a part of a hamlet? Re-designing the San Marco area from the bridge up to the area by Little Gliders and Da Vinvi's Cradle to fit a Spanish theme, paths behind there from both ends of the area to space behind to Fest field area, where you add some flats, this new big ride, and some food areas.

SO really it's a way to not have to cross the Rhine with a hamlet, don't have to sink a huge cost into building 2 new hamlet ares, as the redesign would just take some themeing. Put the entry of the new tall ride right by San Marco Theater so that it's "part" of San Marco. The other part in the Fest Field area could be enough to put in the bare bones of a hamlet area to expand down the line.

 

[Ghost of Pretzel Kaiser]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Man, that is going to be one huge starflyer.

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I'm going a wild guess/prediction/idea/hope out there:
Would they ever redo a part of a hamlet? Re-designing the San Marco area from the bridge up to the area by Little Gliders and Da Vinvi's Cradle to fit a Spanish theme…

I certainly hope not. 1) I love San Marco, and that would remove a "country" as Festa is not Italy. 2) They did this once before, and you can see the result. Hastings > Killarney. Granted, I love the Irish theme and I'm happy with the conversion. But honestly, was this revolutionary? Did they add anything significant? It was mostly marketing and piggybacking on a then pretty hot trend. From a ride perspective however, something revolutionary from the EitA redo notwithstanding, Killarney has been and currently is largely a disappointment.

If Madrid involves a new Hamlet, make it a new Hamlet. On Festa Field. With a coaster. A B&M. Forget Starflyer.

 

[Jpineda96]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

My predictions will be that we are looking at a giga coaster that will cross the Rhine river section near where apollo crosses the Rhine. There is lots of land on the other side where the coaster can snake around and cross back to the brake run. My money is on a B&M giga where the first drop will be at the edge of the river followed by an airtime hill crossing the Rhine river.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

I'm going a wild guess/prediction/idea/hope out there:
Would they ever redo a part of a hamlet?  Re-designing the San Marco area from the bridge up to the area by Little Gliders and Da Vinvi's Cradle to fit a Spanish theme…

I certainly hope not.  1) I love San Marco, and that would remove a "country" as Festa is not Italy.  2) They did this once before, and you can see the result.  Hastings > Killarney. Granted, I love the Irish theme and I'm happy with the conversion.  But honestly, was this revolutionary?  Did they add anything significant?  It was mostly marketing and piggybacking on a then pretty hot trend.   From a ride perspective, something revolutionary from the EitA redo notwithstanding, Killarney has been and currently is largely a disappointment.

If Madrid involves a new Hamlet, make it a new Hamlet.  On Festa Field.  With a coaster.  A B&M.   Forget Starflyer.

1) It's not like I'm saying rip it out so it's not removing, it's a re-purposing. I was going to go further to say to keep the shops, keep the food, keep the show, they could re-purpose some areas in the other Italy parts, add some new buildings up at where Festa Italia splits off. They could so some of the art stuff up by Pompeii to add to a little area that hasn't seen much change in a while.

2) I forgot about that. But I don't feel like Killarney is much of a disappointment since it's such a locked in area. That seems like more of a personal thing than "it actually failed" type thing. Killarney is an area that has as much as it can hold.

Thinking of having them redo San Marco a bit to make the project easily move along isn't something terrible IMO. It can help them quickly have a starting point for a new Hamlet. All new from scratch is going to take quite a while, likely over a year, to complete with infrastructure, building, themeing, rides, gardening. If they were to spend an entire season with most of San Marco's shops (not the theater or food) closed to be rethemed, the offseason taking care of the rest, and the new ride being built at the same time could allow them to open quickly. Meanwhile having a second part of the hamlet/country being done in the first year of the new hamlet and ride would keep the excitement really rolling.

Heck even if a redo of San Marco was the first part to build the hype and the second part of new construction was the e-ticket new ride, a roll out like this could really keep the excitement going for a while. It's a way to also keep the buzz around the park for an extended time after the new hamlets.

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

1) It's not like I'm saying rip it out so it's not removing, it's a re-purposing.

Well, fortunately, I think this a repurposing scenario isn't likely given the location of the height test, the history & investment of San Marco, etc. Much easier to "throw a coat of paint" on Hastings and call it a new Hamlet.

So let's focus on what we agree on, a B&M Matador running-of-the-bulls themed giga coaster!

 

[UncleDuncan]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

A personal note to Busch Gardens Williamsburg from me:

Hey BGW,

How've you been? Having a bitchin' Summer? Long time - no talk, amirite???

Anyhow, I don't mean to be negative because y'know, we're old friends but your latest offerings haven't moved the needle on my personal gauge in quite some time (in fact, the needle has been hovering over 'WGAF' for years now). Your last 3 coasters have either been budget entries, aimed at knee highs, or both. All met with various degrees of success, I suppose. But for someone like me who travels for thrilling experiences, it's been disappointing. I don't go to parks to watch lame musicals or eat overpriced food (tangent: I will blow money on alcohol, though). I pay for rides. Rides that don't suck.

In some ways, I understand how rough the last decade's been. Your overlords and sister parks have been mired with slow sales and bad publicity. Also, someone in your park's leadership thought sinking a million or more into some bullshit British musical would matter. It's been rough. I get that. But all of that is behind us now.

This is your time to shine. Don't fuck this up. I believe in you. You've done great things in the past. You can do them again.

Sincerely,
UncleDrunkle

PS - You've seen Mack's Helix coaster, right? If you haven't, I'd be happy to send you some videos.

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

So if a giga, what do you see as most likely?

1) Self-contained in Festa Field
2) Crossing Grove Creek ("The Rhine") North-South starting in Festa Field transiting Festhaus Park and/or the Rhine
3) Vice-versa, crossing Grove Creek North-South, starting in Festhaus Park
4) Starting in Festa Field, and crossing Grove Creek tributary East-West, similar to Apollo's

With a giga, I think it would need to be #2-#4 given the size and proximity of the height test to the water--which would be awesome.

My gut/hope is starting in Festa Field, with a more substantial investment than just the ride (hamlet?) given that location was one of the many (even if not the primary) factors in Drachen's demise.

Patiently awaiting @Zachary's update.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

1) It's not like I'm saying rip it out so it's not removing, it's a re-purposing.  

Well, fortunately, I think this a repurposing scenario isn't likely given the location of the height test

I mean...in theory here:
It's roughly 550 feet from where the bridge meets San Marco.
The edge of Fury's station to the peak is about 675 feet.

Even if you wanted to go as far over to the other side of the field as you can go without crossing the pipeline it's roughly 430 feet.

I-305's lift hill (higher angle than Fury) peak is about 325 feet from the station.

Based off most of the measurements, B&M's typical lift hill angle, and hitting the peak height, the closest I can get to creating that distance is to start in the space between San Marco and Da Vinci's Cradle and go up to the peak there, but again the lift angle would have to be a little steeper than typical since that distance measures ~600 feet. Leviathan comes close to that measurement from the base of the lift hill.

Hmmm......the more I type this stuff.....the less I think it could be a giga. I think it might be something else. Without B&M going outside their typical norms with lift angle, I'm starting to see the difficulties of it working. Unless of course the station was on the other side of the Rhine. Starting over near the Festhaus Park area actually comes closer to making it work.

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Great analysis @warfelg, thank you.

Maybe they would resurrect Drachen's station area, afterall, and make the ride impressive enough to draw people back there.

Not a B&M, but given the lift hill angle constraints, ever see a top hat as a possibility?

On the pipeline, "I think" they can cross it; it's just a right-of-way. So they can't put a permanent structure on it, and need to keep it clear, but a coaster could cross? Unless this one is different than others I'm familiar with...

In any event, I would like to try sketching this out on map to see what layouts could work...

 

[Merboy]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

A personal note to Busch Gardens Williamsburg from me:

Hey BGW,

How've you been? Having a bitchin' Summer? Long time - no talk, amirite???

Anyhow, I don't mean to be negative because y'know, we're old friends but your latest offerings haven't moved the needle on my personal gauge in quite some time (in fact, the needle has been hovering over 'WGAF' for years now). Your last 3 coasters have either been budget entries, aimed at knee highs, or both. All met with various degrees of success, I suppose. But for someone like me who travels for thrilling experiences, it's been disappointing. I don't go to parks to watch lame musicals or eat overpriced food (tangent: I will blow money on alcohol, though). I pay for rides. Rides that don't suck.

In some ways, I understand how rough the last decade's been. Your overlords and sister parks have been mired with slow sales and bad publicity. Also, someone in your park's leadership thought sinking a million or more into some bullshit British musical would matter. It's been rough. I get that. But all of that is behind us now.

This is your time to shine. Don't fuck this up. I believe in you. You've done great things in the past. You can do them again.

Sincerely,
UncleDrunkle

PS - You've seen Mack's Helix coaster, right? If you haven't, I'd be happy to send you some videos.

So ready for Busch to up its appeal to adult guests. Thank you, UDrunkle.

 

[warfelg]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Great analysis @warfelg, thank you.

Maybe they would resurrect Drachen's station area, afterall, and make the ride impressive enough to draw people back there.

Not a B&M, but given the lift hill angle constraints, ever see a top hat as a possibility?

On the pipeline, "I think" they can cross it; it's just a right-of-way.  So they can't put a permanent structure on it, and need to keep it clear, but a coaster could cross?  Unless this one is different than others I'm familiar with...

In any event, I would like to try sketching this out on map to see what layouts could work...

They can't without an easment allowment:

NO mechanized ditching or excavation
within 5 feet of the extremities of the
pipeline; hand digging only within 2 feet of
the pipeline
• NO excavation or construction over the
pipeline or within the right of way without
Colonial personnel present
• NO sub-grading, grading or fill placed over
the pipeline unless approved by Colonial
• NO impoundment of water (installation of
pools, ponds, etc.)
• NO permanent structures (buildings,
sheds, decks, patios, concrete slabs, etc.)

The three bolded parts really throw a wrench into the proceedings there. It would take some really interesting supports to stay outside the pipeline easement by 5 feet on each side. That's a near 100 foot gap without supports. For comparison Apollo's supports are about 45 feet apart each, and some of the longest spans on Fury is only 75 feet. That means managing a way to span a gap of another 25-ish feet.

I think that an interesting thought now with the notes of some major interaction with the river is a possible double river crossing. Given that new news I've came up of a concept of:
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1vJAoV2z_0I_v2RtxXtm38X5uqbEIC0vn04YB5iARKXM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[thopping]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Great info. The right of way is that wide, ~100 feet? I think the above could be addressable with a coaster crossing if it were a manageable width. To your point, it may be twice as wide as ideal however. Nessie crosses the right of way near the Helix tunnel though, right?

Love the concept drawing!

 

[horsesboy]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Great info.  The right of way is that wide, ~100 feet?  I think the above could be addressable with a coaster crossing if it were a manageable width.  To your point, it may be twice as wide as ideal however.  Nessie crosses the right of way near the Helix tunnel though, right?

Love the concept drawing!

She does. I can't find the post bow but in the pipeline clearing threas there is a photo of her crossing it. That part of her was costom made to make sure there were no issues.

 

[MAZ]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

She crossed before all of the bullshit legislation.

 

[halfabee]

RE: Project Madrid: New Hamlet? Giga Coaster? 315' Tower?

Arrow once had some promotional material that made a big deal about the Loch Ness truss structure they engineered to cross the pipeline right of way. Of course that all had to be designed by hand... no fancy computers in Arrow's offices back then.

I can think of a manufacturer who likes to build lifts with very few support points spaced very far apart, enabled by massive truss structures and double-spine track spans... but I don't think we are likely to see them installing a ride at BGW anytime soon.