Project 2019: Finnegan's Flyer (S&S Screamin' Swing)

[..…]

There's a certain level of stereotyping and "cheese" I anticipate in a park like BGW unfortunately (and I think "O'" falls into that category).

That said, I start to have an issue when the park plays with the dark, legitimately serious parts of these countries' histories. I addressed this more in-depth regarding my thoughts on O'Taters here.

Hopefully BGW will just avoid referencing any competition between the orange and green sides of this ride in the future. There's nothing inherently wrong with the paint scheme in my opinion. BGW just needs to treat it delicately.

Oh, and anyone in a PR-related job at BGW should have some basic history training...

I agree, but I think the fact that we anticipate the cheese is unfortunate and rather insulting to the intelligence of many park goers. O'Taters is a layer cake of insult, with both the cheese factor and a reference to a dark history. It's an issue I also have with Der Roto Baron - it's a cheesy play on (or ignorant American butchering of, depending on your perspective) the German translation of Red Baron, and it also references a dark history.

I know the Roto Baron example is completely off topic for this thread but my point is, it's the 21st century for goodness sake. I'd like to think that Americans are moving past a mindless ignorance of and/or contempt for other cultures, and I think the amusement industry should consider moving past it too.

 

[GrandpaD]

I agree in general with @Lolers but I think the whole "Snoopy vs.." pretty much legitimized a play on the Red Baron. There was even a hit record, so I'll give Busch that one.

I think, as I said before, they need to stop thinking every ride needs a story. Finnegan's Flyers can stand on its own. Next thing we know, the giga in Madrid will have "Inquisition" in it's name.

 

[mtpelepele]

I agree in general with @Lolers but I think the whole "Snoopy vs.." pretty much legitimized a play on the Red Baron. There was even a hit record, so I'll give Busch that one.

I think, as I said before, they need to stop thinking every ride needs a story. Finnegan's Flyers can stand on its own. Next thing we know, the giga in Madrid will have "Inquisition" in it's name.

Huh. Did NOT expect that.

 

[..…]

I agree in general with @Lolers but I think the whole "Snoopy vs.." pretty much legitimized a play on the Red Baron. There was even a hit record, so I'll give Busch that one.

I think, as I said before, they need to stop thinking every ride needs a story. Finnegan's Flyers can stand on its own. Next thing we know, the giga in Madrid will have "Inquisition" in it's name.

You're probably right about Snoopy.

I actually like that the rides have stories and names that tie them to their location, which I think is essential for differentiation between a theme park and an amusement park. I just wish they'd stop being so damn transparently lazy with naming and storytelling. That said, I agree that Finnegan's Flyers could stand on its own.

 

[Thomas]

Let's hope the ride ops don't encourage screaming contests between the different arms like on battering ram.

 

[b.mac]

Let's hope the ride ops don't encourage screaming contests between the different arms like on battering ram.

It'd at least be better than hearing "Are you ready to ride?" 5 times before they dispatch a train at Apollo's.

 

[halfabee]

Can't wait for the IRA laser tag arena!

Just wait until you see the new theme of Splashus Maximus when it reappears in Killarney.

 

[warfelg]

I don’t love the battle thing because of historic context, but I do question what percent of park goers know of that history or even Care TBH.

Edit:
I’m not using this as an excuse to justify the park doing this. Mearly I think as park “superfans” we’re a little more into all of this. They should be sensitive to certain things, but I think sometimes certain things are unavoidable. Like the stereo-typical names of places....it’s the easiest way to convey to a majority of guests what’s in there.

 

[Icer]

I honestly don't get the apprehension towards referencing dark history. History is history, why bother censoring?

To me it shows a lot of courage and tenacity to the park to not have a problem referencing edgier subjects for the sake of theming, because they aren't doing it in an inherently offensive way. It's the classic case of getting offended for someone else if someone is bothered by this for reasons other than personal connection.

Even if this was themed to this battle between the religions, it is an interesting part of Irish history, and means a lot to the flag. If the country itself doesn't have a problem waving that symbology around, then who really cares?

Let's just be glad that they care enough to root their theming in actual history, regardless of what history that may be and how deep those roots are.

Edit: @GrandpaD i couldn't disagree more with your statement about each ride not needing a story. Though it is a small effort and doesn't change much in the grand scheme, it is what sets apart a theme park from an amusement park. If all the rides were just rides with no story or theming, welcome to Six Flags. I personally see it as a good sign that BGW cares enough to add story to something as simple as a flat, shows they still care about maintaining theming, no matter on how we all agree on how good the theming is.

 

[Zachary]

Huge credit to Busch Gardens Williamsburg for actually editing their Instagram post after we raised the issue.

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[GrandpaD]

Edit: @GrandpaD i couldn't disagree more with your statement about each ride not needing a story. Though it is a small effort and doesn't change much in the grand scheme, it is what sets apart a theme park from an amusement park. If all the rides were just rides with no story or theming, welcome to Six Flags. I personally see it as a good sign that BGW cares enough to add story to something as simple as a flat, shows they still care about maintaining theming, no matter on how we all agree on how good the theming is.

I didn't want to turn this into another "Battle for Eire", lol. I said nothing about theming. I totally concur that a new ride/attraction needs to be extensively themed to fit into the hamlet. Colors, name and placement are important to adhere to the overall ambiance of the hamlet and park. What I don't think is always needed is an accompanying press release "story" that they do little to incorporate into a preshow/queue anyway. As seen a post up they've opted to drop the "duel" so the story angle pretty much just "swung away" anyway.

On a "ride design" side, I think a cool addition would be a "pot of gold" hidden across the ravine that "magically" appears (scrim lighting?) occasionally so guests can "try to grab the pot o' gold".

EDIT - @Zachary Now they just need a proofreader "Who's exited?
EDIT 2 - I'm EXCITED the typo EXITED the Instagram post.

 

[..…]

I honestly don't get the apprehension towards referencing dark history. History is history, why bother censoring?

To me it shows a lot of courage and tenacity to the park to not have a problem referencing edgier subjects for the sake of theming, because they aren't doing it in an inherently offensive way. It's the classic case of getting offended for someone else if someone is bothered by this for reasons other than personal connection.

Even if this was themed to this battle between the religions, it is an interesting part of Irish history, and means a lot to the flag. If the country itself doesn't have a problem waving that symbology around, then who really cares?

Let's just be glad that they care enough to root their theming in actual history, regardless of what history that may be and how deep those roots are.

I think context has a lot to do with when it's appropriate to reference a dark period in history. For example, Williamsburg is full of tourist attractions that cover such periods, but they do so in a solemn, respectful way. Although these places usually have a gift shop and cafeteria, you won't find so much as an ice cream stand or cheesy revolutionary war themed rides or anything else that gives the attraction any type of thrill vibe. The employees and volunteers are clearly very serious about their jobs and are there to help guests learn about history, not to derive thrills from it.

Referencing dark periods in history with the goal of providing thrills and entertainment is, in my opinion, inherently offensive. I don't believe a personal connection to the event or the people affected is needed to view the idea of theming amusement park attractions around periods of human suffering as distasteful.
If you apply this idea to more widely know events, you can see how appalling it is. Imagine if Jamestown Settlement opened a restaurant themed after Jamestown's period of cannibalism, or if BGW built a roller coaster next to the Festhaus called "Hitler's Revenge." As human beings, we should have the decency not to do these things regardless of how disconnected we are from the actual event.

 

[GrandpaD]

I've never gone to a theme/amusement park for a history lesson.

Anyone wanna wager this ride opens St. Patrick's Day 2019?

 

[warfelg]

I've never gone to a theme/amusement park for a history lesson.

Anyone wanna wager this ride opens St. Patrick's Day 2019?

I’m in this camp. Now if it’s an egregiously bad one I get it. But (not to get overly political here) I think sometimes there’s a tendency to get a little too into the “no offensive” elements.

Where I disagree with them using the “battle” element...there was really no need for it in this ride. There’s no “battle element” to this.

Now I personally think if you used the story the Finnegan was a person in the town always scheming up a new way to make money off seeing the Cliffs of Moher. The flyer is his latest invention to see the cliffs and he’s looking for unwitting tourists as the locals have grown wise to his scheming.

 

[Icer]

I think comparing "O'Taters" to something having to do with Hitler is slightly twisted. There is still scale here. Dark periods of history aren't just as bad each other, you have to consider the magnitude. You can't equate something like the internal religious conflict of Ireland to Hitler.

This whole anti-dark periods of history with no respect to scale thing could be pitted against so many things in the park then. DarKastle? Pompeii? Jack the Ripper?

It seems as though this argument against dark periods of history is very subject to whether or not the majority thinks the attraction is cool or not.

By your logic, either all references are okay, or none are.

Or you could take into account the scale and who it is really impacting, and see whether this attraction is okay. I think theming this to a religious conflict flies along similar lines of Pompeii as far as scale. Maybe more maybe less. But I think that is the discussion we should be having, the scale, not "this references dark periods not okay".

Sure it's odd to display a religious conflict through swings, but I just see it as effort made by the park. Only way they could more respectfully portray this would possibly be a much more gruesome dark ride, which nobody would want.

 

[mtorange]

This whole thing reminds me of the battle (no pun intended) that took place after Rebel Yell was renamed at KD due to the Confederate debate that is still raging on. That was a nasty time that I don't want to relive. I'd hate to see the same thing happen at Busch... I won't repeat my rant on political correctness at theme parks (see Howl-O-Scream 2018 if you want to see it, I forgot which page, but it was in reference to the severed heads debate), but you get my point.

 

[Nicole]

Thank goodness they deleted "duel."

I'm sorry, but I don't think it is "political correctness" to object to a ride at an amusement park being themed to a civil war that was objectively one of the darkest aspects of 20th century British history. The simple fact is that the "Troubles" weren't rhetorical disagreements: two armed sides, led in part by terrorist organizations, murdered innocent bystanders in a fight over territory and power. I am not going to delve into the fraught specifics, because people still fight over the causes and justifications. I will say, however, that if you don't know to what I refer, please Google "Ireland Troubles bombings."

I completely disagree that only enthusiasts would notice or care. Sirens went off in my head, when I read the word "duel," not because I like roller coasters, but because I am educated in Western history, and aware of the current political implications of the words the park (thoughtlessly?) used.

I find it simply inexcusable for a marketing team, working at a Europe-themed park with a tradition of providing educational content to its guests, to be so apparently unaware of major historical events. They have an obligation to do research before telling the world that the Orange Swing is going to duel the Green Swing, when that can be easily interpreted as the Ulster Prods fighting the IRA.

That Instagram post was arguably worse than the story-line about the Vikings attacking Quebec. The InvadR concept is laughably absurd (and a little sad); but what they nearly did with the Screamin Swing was openly offensive.

 

[..…]

I think comparing "O'Taters" to something having to do with Hitler is slightly twisted.

I didn't compare O'Taters to something to do with Hitler. I used Hitler as an example of why it's distasteful to use dark historical periods in an amusement/entertainment setting.

There is still scale here. Dark periods of history aren't just as bad each other, you have to consider the magnitude. You can't equate something like the internal religious conflict of Ireland to Hitler.

Internal religious conflicts have been used throughout history to justify genocide, so the two are definitely comparable.

This whole anti-dark periods of history with no respect to scale thing could be pitted against so many things in the park then. DarKastle? Pompeii? Jack the Ripper?

There is a thread called "Appropriate Park Theming" (https://parkfans.net/index.php?threads/appropriate-park-theming.5208/#top) that goes more into this discussion, and there is certainly some gray area.

It seems as though this argument against dark periods of history is very subject to whether or not the majority thinks the attraction is cool or not.
By your logic, either all references are okay, or none are.

I don't recall any posts on this thread referencing majority rule or a cool factor. Can you elaborate on this point?

Or you could take into account the scale and who it is really impacting, and see whether this attraction is okay. I think theming this to a religious conflict flies along similar lines of Pompeii as far as scale. Maybe more maybe less. But I think that is the discussion we should be having, the scale, not "this references dark periods not okay".

Again, I agree there is gray area. The Appropriate Park Theming thread will be of interest.

Sure it's odd to display a religious conflict through swings, but I just see it as effort made by the park. Only way they could more respectfully portray this would possibly be a much more gruesome dark ride, which nobody would want.

How would making a grotesque dark ride about a period of human suffering be respectful?

 

[Icer]

You seem to be missing my point, or intentionally splitting my post into chunks and redirecting it to make it not valid, but I am not trying to make this a hostile discussion.

I would implore someone to disagree with me that scale matters when it comes to referencing dark periods of history. That is my point. Scale matters, like how in society we have certain "unmentionables", based off of scale and impact. Not saying I agree or disagree with how things are, I am just saying that in our time, scale matters. And I feel that we should be giving attention to that. Not just instantly being opposed to it because it is edgy.

Your addressing of my using O'Taters and the religious conflict shows you do not see what I mean by scale. Though the roots of conflict may have been religious, Ireland's religious past and Hitler's reign should not be compared in this context because of their scale.

I don;t want to spend the time to counter back all the points you just made because it isn't my intent to disprove you, my intent is just to get people to recognize scale. I apologize if you felt personally attacked to the extent where you felt the need to split the cohesiveness of my post to make it look incorrect.

 

[Zachary]

When treating a wound, the severity of the damage and the freshness of the injury both matter. The Troubles is a very fresh wound and it was a really nasty one too.

Ultimately though, I don't actually see how our personal opinions even matter here.

Just as with Rebel Yell/Racer 75, it's clearly a sore point for many so it's probably best that the park avoid it. 99% of the time that is just good business. Everyone should be able to agree to that I'd think...